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11/25/2008 12:09:56 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Welcome back to the conversation... jump in Jac, Flash.
Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-P |
LOL I don't blame ya. :) |
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11/25/2008 01:19:54 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
Careful - you are speaking of my (native - most likely Iroquis) ancestry there. Please feel free to right this wrong and leave - so that we can go back to killing and enslaving our own - via our traditions.
Please enlighten me (so that I won't be ignorant), of any peoples through early history that have not engaged in the practice of conquering and enslaving the conquered. I seem to be at a loss of recollecting exceptions to this historic fact. Your implication is that we (America) are to be dispised due to our history. At least be consistent and dispise every government or War Chief that ruled - after conquering another. |
Do you still ascribe to this Neolithic way of thinking? |
Are you claiming that this method does not exist today? Like Rawanda or Darfur or a host of other tribal run areas on the Globe. Are the 800,000 slaves trafficked worldwide not evidence of this? Is America's conquering of the natives the only example in history? No? Well then my point has been made. And where did the slaves originate from that MadMordegon referenced when denigrating America? And who enslaved them initially - those evil americans or their neighboring tribesmen? So again I state, if you are going to demonize America for conquering a people, at least be consistent and demonize every like act accross the globe and throughout history. |
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11/25/2008 01:34:41 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
America's real history starts with the genocide and displacement of millions of Native Americans and was build on the backs of slavery.
Don't be ignorant. |
Careful - you are speaking of my (native - most likely Iroquis) ancestry there. Please feel free to right this wrong and leave - so that we can go back to killing and enslaving our own - via our traditions.
Please enlighten me (so that I won't be ignorant), of any peoples through early history that have not engaged in the practice of conquering and enslaving the conquered. I seem to be at a loss of recollecting exceptions to this historic fact. Your implication is that we (America) are to be dispised due to our history. At least be consistent and dispise every government or War Chief that ruled - after conquering another. |
Do you still ascribe to this Neolithic way of thinking? |
Are you claiming that this method does not exist today? Like Rawanda or Darfur or a host of other tribal run areas on the Globe. Are the 800,000 slaves trafficked worldwide not evidence of this? Is America's conquering of the natives the only example in history? No? Well then my point has been made. And where did the slaves originate from that MadMordegon referenced when denigrating America? And who enslaved them initially - those evil americans or their neighboring tribesmen? So again I state, if you are going to demonize America for conquering a people, at least be consistent and demonize every like act accross the globe and throughout history. |
For one thing, all he was doing was counter-pointing the original post. He was in no way denigrating America of today. Just making it clear that America's history isn't all happy bells and lollipops and christian wonderful. You take the good, you take the bad.
For another, not all Native American tribes were conquerors, killers, and slavers, and some were only forced into war tribes because of the European invasions, so your inference that native americans would all go back to that is a little ridiculous.
Yes, humanity was built on the fact that we conquer each other and take lands, and no we shouldn't have to spend our lives apologizing and living in the past and never moving forward because of horrors that took place long ago, but we shouldn't also entirely forget it or fail to learn from the mistakes of the past.
While the people who started America were probably very religious, they were also trying to escape religious persecution, and were striving to build a better land, but much of the time, they went about it very badly, made a lot of mistakes, and killed a lot of innocent natives while doing so. That is a truth of the past, and shouldn't be ignored when discussing anything to do with the roots of the land. |
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11/25/2008 01:57:40 PM · #29 |
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11/25/2008 02:34:48 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots. |
It is hardly breaking news that in W. Europe and N. America 200 years, religion was an important part of everyday life and Christianity dominated.
The truly impressive thing was that progressive thinkers such as Jefferson managed to import the concept of freedom of religion and separation of church and state so effectively into the constitutions of, first, Virginia, then the US. These were the first instances of this in the world, and are part of the foundations of modern political philosophy. It was a truly remarkable feat.
Sadly, the preeminence of intellectualism within the US is diminishing and unthinking prejudice is once again afoot. Almost alone among modern Western democracies, advances in education have not been allied with a reduction in religiosity in the US. The things that I admire most about the US are being diminished as a result.
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11/25/2008 03:44:11 PM · #31 |
| Bad news. God Bless America was written by a Jew. All this time, the Jewish God has been blessing us, sans Christ. |
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11/25/2008 04:11:29 PM · #32 |
Counter Article for refutation. I really hate when words, like statistics, are used to push an agenda that is not related to the original words or statistics.
Some info from the article...
"Church membership was very low (less than 30 percent) among the citizens of the various colonies during the period between the First and Second Great Awakenings."
"George Washington, though he did not sign the Declaration, was a member of the Episcopal Church in Virginia, but he was known by his closest friends and his minister as a person who was not a communicant (received Lord's Supper) and more a Deist in his personal religious views. Deists perused the Bible more as a source of morals while discounting its miracles, inspiration, and teachings concerning salvation."
"This quote is wrong in all particulars. The Continental Congress did not found the American Bible Society. The Society was not founded until 1816, twenty-seven years after the Continental Congress ceased to exist."
On the Patrick Henry Quote: "This quotation is accurate in that Henry spoke these words, but the quote lacks proper ellipses, and thus gives the impression that his speech was more religious in nature rather than interspersed with general religious notions typical of political speeches of the time. Henry's entire speech can be examined at the website: //www.quoteworld.org/docs/phgiv328.php."
See, anyone can take stuff out of context and show that it means whatever they want it to. Of course, some are better than others...
All in all, a very interesting refutation of Mary Jones and her bible thumping web site...
Sorry - just had to add this:
Jefferson: "I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma [sic] of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the compre-hension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature...."
Seems Jefferson was anti-Christian but pro-Jesus. hmmm....
Message edited by author 2008-11-25 16:17:27. |
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11/25/2008 09:43:49 PM · #33 |
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