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10/22/2008 05:47:19 PM · #101
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

You better believe I'll kill to prevent someone else from killing my people. If you wouldn't, you don't deserve the protections your armed forces give you.

I see. So, in order for the citizenry to enjoy the protection of the armed forces, they must be as willing as soldiers to kill?

Yes.

Merely absurd. As nonsensical as suggesting that in order for the citizenry to enjoy the protection of the fire department, they must be willing to expose themselves to the flames.


I agree with your point in general but that wouldn't be a good example to use at least where I live. We have an all volunteer fire department.


True, but even then, to be protected by them does not require one to be a volunteer firefighter


I like to look to the animal world with stuff like this. Some animals like an elephant will fight to protect the herd. Others like a gazelle will run and then stand by out of range and watch while a lion kills the herd’s youngest and/or weakest members.

I’d like to think we are more like the elephant. When the lion stalks our herd we chase it away, killing it if needed rather running and sacrificing our weakest while wiping our brow saying “glad it wasn’t me.”
10/22/2008 05:49:25 PM · #102
Originally posted by jjstager2:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:



But kneejerk patriotism really bothers me, a lot...

R.


Very well put, Robert.

Yeah, I get bothered by kneejerk patriotism. But I am even more bothered by the "Blame America First" crowd and those who cannot empathize with just where this now dead soldier's thoughts were coming from.


I wonder about the "blame America first" thing. Is it unjustly hung on people, who question the government or simply believe we don't have the moral high ground to do what we do.

Robert put forth a great post that explains why people of the Middle East have just reason for dislikeing us and not wanting the US or anyone else dictating terms to them.

I mentioned the Shah of Iran somewhere, in a thread over the last day or two and the evil havoc he reaped on his people with our full support. Am I a blame America first guy? Or am I trying to understand the root of the problem and state a case based on legitimate issues?

We F@#$%d them pretty good. Real good. That's a fact and we shouldn't be surprised by the political shifts and in that country and any ill will we've earned.

Blame America First or cause and effect?

Let's just be honest and maybe then, we'll be on the right track.

Message edited by author 2008-10-22 17:54:54.
10/22/2008 05:58:46 PM · #103
Mossadegh was a popular leader who after failing to negotiate a higher profit margin from his own country's natural resources, decided to nationalize them...for that he had to be punished and replaced with a brutal dictator.

Message edited by author 2008-10-22 17:59:26.
10/22/2008 06:08:18 PM · #104
Originally posted by Iraklis:

Mossadegh was a popular leader who after failing to negotiate a higher profit margin from his own country's natural resources, decided to nationalize them...for that he had to be punished and replaced with a brutal dictator.


Don't tell me...let me guess....

Oil? US interest? Complete disregard of a sovereignty???

I blame Bear_Music.
10/22/2008 06:18:26 PM · #105
Originally posted by pawdrix:

I blame Bear_Music.


And Karma, the assless wonderdog.
10/22/2008 06:40:10 PM · #106
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

I blame Bear_Music.


And Karma, the assless wonderdog.


Oh, Gawd! I absolutely KNEW I should have rejected her when I heard her name....

R.
10/22/2008 07:17:45 PM · #107
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


But the people of the Middle East have a very long memory. They (and their religion) have been under attack by the West since at least the time of the expansionist policies of the Holy Roman Empire and, later, the Crusades of the Roman Catholic Church. It's understandable that they, as a people, are very bitter about Western involvement in their region, and Western meddling in their business.

R.


I disagree. You forget that Islam was spread by conquering armies swarming up the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, into the Balkans and to Vienna and across North Africa, to Southern Italy and Spain from the other direction. It seems to me that the Crusades were a military response to a military threat. And if you don't agree with that analysis, you should at least concede that portraying Middle Eastern peoples as innocient victims of expansionist policies of the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church is only seeing one side of the coin.

10/22/2008 07:19:41 PM · #108
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

You better believe I'll kill to prevent someone else from killing my people. If you wouldn't, you don't deserve the protections your armed forces give you.

I see. So, in order for the citizenry to enjoy the protection of the armed forces, they must be as willing as soldiers to kill?

Yes.

Merely absurd. As nonsensical as suggesting that in order for the citizenry to enjoy the protection of the fire department, they must be willing to expose themselves to the flames.


Then you prefer to let others make the sacrifices and yet you wish to dine at their banquet? I couldn't look myself in the face if I took that route.
10/22/2008 07:24:33 PM · #109
Originally posted by tnun:

The Caroline incident may not stand up in international law as a justification for pre-emptive war.


Well, it has stood up for 150 years now.

Originally posted by tnun:

Canadians have been sewing their flag to their backpacks since before our worthy friend Oman Otter was born, and when it still had a corner filled with the Union Jack.


Have they been doing it in the masses that they do now? I've been seeing it for the last 20 years. If you see a group of 20 Canadians overseas, all 20 of them will have their flag sewn to their backpack. Are you really that Nationalistic? I asked some Canadians about it and they told me the purpose was not to be mistaken for Americans. I realize that the position of a few individuals does not count for everyone, but it rang true from what I have experienced and so I could think of no other likely explanation. I still believe it, but am open to persuasion of you've got some evidence or good anecdotes.

But enough arguing about Canada. I do have great respect for our frosty neighbors to the north - and if this goes on like this, you're going to think I don't. Plus, that was a bit of a long detour from the original purpose of this thread.

Message edited by author 2008-10-22 19:28:35.
10/22/2008 07:36:57 PM · #110
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by tnun:

The Caroline incident may not stand up in international law as a justification for pre-emptive war.


Well, it has stood up for 150 years now.

Originally posted by tnun:

Canadians have been sewing their flag to their backpacks since before our worthy friend Oman Otter was born, and when it still had a corner filled with the Union Jack.


Have they been doing it in the masses that they do now? I've been seeing it for the last 20 years. If you see a group of 20 Canadians overseas, all 20 of them will have their flag sewn to their backpack. Are you really that Nationalistic? I asked some Canadians about it and they told me the purpose was not to be mistaken for Americans. I realize that the position of a few individuals does not count for everyone, but it rang true from what I have experienced and so I could think of no other likely explanation. I still believe it, but am open to persuasion of you've got some evidence or good anecdotes.

But enough arguing about Canada. I do have great respect for our frosty neighbors to the north - and if this goes on like this, you're going to think I don't. Plus, that was a bit of a long detour from the original purpose of this thread.


Maybe you need to look at why Americans don't want to be mistaken for Americans overseas. I've seen Americans use the Canadian flag on their luggage.
10/22/2008 08:11:26 PM · #111
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by jjstager2:

I am concerned that our popular culture no longer champions analytical thought. Critical thinking would cause us to admit today just what an incredible blow the attack on 9-11 was to the United States. It would also require us to realize and admit that we have been spared another attack for seven straight years.


We have sacrificed the safety of our children for our own safety. The aggressive policies of the United States create hatred toward us. The First Gulf War engendered 9/11, 10 years later. I shudder to think what the Second Gulf War will bring upon us.


True. This side of the coin is almost always ignored. When we send US troops on foreign grounds, we are not making friends... we are making enemies. And there is NO WAY the American troops can stay there forever.. can they? What happens once they come back? You can kill extremists.. but you cannot kill extremism. In fact extremism can never be killed I think...unless one is willing to wipe out the whole nation a handful of whose citizens are extremists. The core is somewhere else: in racial discrimination, in religious discrimination, in all kinds of discrimination that human kind is naturally used to. It is in human nature to discriminate... not consciously.. it just comes naturally. I forget the source, but I read this study once that concluded that we as human beings are born to differentiate... it is one way we recognise and remember things.

So unless there is a single religion, or no religion on this planet.. along with all people born of the same color.. and into similar socio-economic status, I do not believe the extremism-guided disputes can be avoided. Even then, we might find other ways to discriminate.. based on northern states or farming states or the fishing people.. what not.

We have grown into a pretty smart race. Havent we? :-)
10/22/2008 08:44:32 PM · #112
Originally posted by jjstager2:

Yeah, I get bothered by kneejerk patriotism. But I am even more bothered by the "Blame America First" crowd and those who cannot empathize with just where this now dead soldier's thoughts were coming from.

"The Blame America First crowd" is just another distortion from the same playbook of phrases such as "liberal media" and "activist judges."
10/22/2008 08:49:39 PM · #113
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by tnun:

The Caroline incident may not stand up in international law as a justification for pre-emptive war.


Well, it has stood up for 150 years now.

Originally posted by tnun:

Canadians have been sewing their flag to their backpacks since before our worthy friend Oman Otter was born, and when it still had a corner filled with the Union Jack.


Have they been doing it in the masses that they do now? I've been seeing it for the last 20 years. If you see a group of 20 Canadians overseas, all 20 of them will have their flag sewn to their backpack. Are you really that Nationalistic? I asked some Canadians about it and they told me the purpose was not to be mistaken for Americans. I realize that the position of a few individuals does not count for everyone, but it rang true from what I have experienced and so I could think of no other likely explanation. I still believe it, but am open to persuasion of you've got some evidence or good anecdotes.

But enough arguing about Canada. I do have great respect for our frosty neighbors to the north - and if this goes on like this, you're going to think I don't. Plus, that was a bit of a long detour from the original purpose of this thread.


Maybe you need to look at why Americans don't want to be mistaken for Americans overseas. I've seen Americans use the Canadian flag on their luggage.


One comment and One Question:

1. You won't see me wearing a Canadian Flag or displaying one on my luggage when I travel overseas. (Though I do admit to being a huge Don Cherry and Hockey Night in Canada fan)

2. ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' OmanOtter are you from Senegal or America?

10/22/2008 09:01:31 PM · #114
Originally posted by sempermarine:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by tnun:

The Caroline incident may not stand up in international law as a justification for pre-emptive war.


Well, it has stood up for 150 years now.

Originally posted by tnun:

Canadians have been sewing their flag to their backpacks since before our worthy friend Oman Otter was born, and when it still had a corner filled with the Union Jack.


Have they been doing it in the masses that they do now? I've been seeing it for the last 20 years. If you see a group of 20 Canadians overseas, all 20 of them will have their flag sewn to their backpack. Are you really that Nationalistic? I asked some Canadians about it and they told me the purpose was not to be mistaken for Americans. I realize that the position of a few individuals does not count for everyone, but it rang true from what I have experienced and so I could think of no other likely explanation. I still believe it, but am open to persuasion of you've got some evidence or good anecdotes.

But enough arguing about Canada. I do have great respect for our frosty neighbors to the north - and if this goes on like this, you're going to think I don't. Plus, that was a bit of a long detour from the original purpose of this thread.


Maybe you need to look at why Americans don't want to be mistaken for Americans overseas. I've seen Americans use the Canadian flag on their luggage.


One comment and One Question:

1. You won't see me wearing a Canadian Flag or displaying one on my luggage when I travel overseas. (Though I do admit to being a huge Don Cherry and Hockey Night in Canada fan)

2. ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' OmanOtter are you from Senegal or America?


Good on ya for not displaying the flag of a country that's not yours.

Canadians don't want to be mistaken for Americans for one main reason.... because we're not.
10/22/2008 09:06:17 PM · #115
Oman, the original purpose of this thread is not clear, unless it was to say people in America are bad to criticise the war. Because it makes the soldiers who risk their lives (and minds and bodies) angry, and even bellicose(!). Many of us do not agree that this constitutes an argument against criticism. It was you who brought up the flags on backpacks - and yes, every single Canadian I knew who went backpacking through Europe had a flag. Americans were not popular then for whatever reason. Americans even older than I have had the experience of enduring European surprise that we knew how to use knives and forks.

The United Nations has not yet adopted the Bush Doctrine which seeks to base itself on a British expedient legal assertion.

I do not feel that much is to be gained by point-making in argument, but if light can be shed on the history and facts I feel it can serve.
10/22/2008 09:14:44 PM · #116
Originally posted by OmanOtter:


I disagree. You forget that Islam was spread by conquering armies swarming up the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant, into the Balkans and to Vienna and across North Africa, to Southern Italy and Spain from the other direction. It seems to me that the Crusades were a military response to a military threat. And if you don't agree with that analysis, you should at least concede that portraying Middle Eastern peoples as innocient victims of expansionist policies of the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church is only seeing one side of the coin.


That was never my point: it's not a matter of "who's innocent", it's a matter of "who's not guilty". A broader perspective demands awareness of these things...

R.
10/22/2008 09:56:28 PM · #117
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by sempermarine:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by tnun:

The Caroline incident may not stand up in international law as a justification for pre-emptive war.


Well, it has stood up for 150 years now.

Originally posted by tnun:

Canadians have been sewing their flag to their backpacks since before our worthy friend Oman Otter was born, and when it still had a corner filled with the Union Jack.


Have they been doing it in the masses that they do now? I've been seeing it for the last 20 years. If you see a group of 20 Canadians overseas, all 20 of them will have their flag sewn to their backpack. Are you really that Nationalistic? I asked some Canadians about it and they told me the purpose was not to be mistaken for Americans. I realize that the position of a few individuals does not count for everyone, but it rang true from what I have experienced and so I could think of no other likely explanation. I still believe it, but am open to persuasion of you've got some evidence or good anecdotes.

But enough arguing about Canada. I do have great respect for our frosty neighbors to the north - and if this goes on like this, you're going to think I don't. Plus, that was a bit of a long detour from the original purpose of this thread.


Maybe you need to look at why Americans don't want to be mistaken for Americans overseas. I've seen Americans use the Canadian flag on their luggage.


One comment and One Question:

1. You won't see me wearing a Canadian Flag or displaying one on my luggage when I travel overseas. (Though I do admit to being a huge Don Cherry and Hockey Night in Canada fan)

2. ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' OmanOtter are you from Senegal or America?


Good on ya for not displaying the flag of a country that's not yours.

Canadians don't want to be mistaken for Americans for one main reason.... because we're not.


Thanks
10/22/2008 10:51:52 PM · #118
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by tnun:

The Caroline incident may not stand up in international law as a justification for pre-emptive war.


Well, it has stood up for 150 years now.

Originally posted by tnun:

Canadians have been sewing their flag to their backpacks since before our worthy friend Oman Otter was born, and when it still had a corner filled with the Union Jack.


Have they been doing it in the masses that they do now? I've been seeing it for the last 20 years. If you see a group of 20 Canadians overseas, all 20 of them will have their flag sewn to their backpack. Are you really that Nationalistic? I asked some Canadians about it and they told me the purpose was not to be mistaken for Americans. I realize that the position of a few individuals does not count for everyone, but it rang true from what I have experienced and so I could think of no other likely explanation. I still believe it, but am open to persuasion of you've got some evidence or good anecdotes.

But enough arguing about Canada. I do have great respect for our frosty neighbors to the north - and if this goes on like this, you're going to think I don't. Plus, that was a bit of a long detour from the original purpose of this thread.


You might be surprised to find that a significant number of those people you see with the Maple Leaf draped over their backpacks are Americans who opt to do so because they don't want people to think they are Americans... seems it is healthier to adopt this process.

Do I know this for a fact you ask... yes I do as I had the opportunity to meet several Canadians with a very distinctive southern drawl when visiting Europe years ago.

... But as you said... we digress.

Ray
10/22/2008 11:44:16 PM · #119
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

You better believe I'll kill to prevent someone else from killing my people. If you wouldn't, you don't deserve the protections your armed forces give you.

I see. So, in order for the citizenry to enjoy the protection of the armed forces, they must be as willing as soldiers to kill?

Yes.

Merely absurd. As nonsensical as suggesting that in order for the citizenry to enjoy the protection of the fire department, they must be willing to expose themselves to the flames.

Then you prefer to let others make the sacrifices and yet you wish to dine at their banquet? I couldn't look myself in the face if I took that route.

There's a cascade of absurdities implied by this dewy-eyed sentiment. You must be willing to be a firefighter if you expect to have fires fought on your behalf, you must be willing to dodge traffic and run red lights with sick people in your car if you expect to take an ambulance at any point in the future, you must be willing to arm yourself and venture into the nearest crack house to make a few arrests if you expect the police to keep your neighbourhood safe, you must be willing to teach a roomful of preteens the basics of math if you expect the state to educate your child and on and on and on. It makes for an interesting appeal to emotion, but it's ultimately empty rhetoric, and I would think most people recognize it as such.
10/23/2008 12:25:41 AM · #120
While I disagree with Oman Otter about the legitimacy of the Bush Doctrine, I think he speaks reasonably. If we do enjoy the protection of the armed forces - if we are willing to be protected by the armed forces, we are in fact willing the killing that they may carry out. Who it is that wields the knife is beside the point. The blood is on our hands. But I'm not sure there is a banquet.

As well, the point about the spread of Islam through conquest is well made. Christianity and Islam have both spread by conquest as well as by other means. On the other hand the point is not about innocence or guilt, but about very specific causes and our failure to take them into account.
10/23/2008 02:24:31 AM · #121
To go back to the basic point of the thread, that we, the people of the United States of America, should we disagree with our government's mid east policy, should either shut up or move to another country is a rather sad thing to be the last words of a young man.

The notion that the forces that the President has deployed to fight there are being unfairly attacked is false, they are lauded for their service, by liberals and conservatives. If you had been around during the Vietnam war, you would have seen our forces spurned by their country for serving that country; no one is spitting on these guys uniforms.

Call me Un-American if you need to but my favorite founding father said "It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." - Benjamin Franklin

It is fashionable on the political right to call the liberal urban centers "not the real America" but as Sarah Vowell pointed out in her defense of New York City, it seemed that it was American enough for Al Qaeda to send two planes there.

And flight 93, the plane that was full of San Franciso bound passengers, that was supposed to crash into the White House? The one that crashed in a field in Stonycreek Township, because the effete city folk, including a gay rugby player, and a jewish tech nerd died making sure that plane wasn't going to be turned into a weapon. Seems like they are due perhaps a bit of respect too.
10/23/2008 09:15:48 AM · #122
I'm not going to quote you all because it would take up too much space; but I'll try to address as many of you as possible where it had to do with me.

1) Are you American or Senegalese? I'm an American living in Senegal. I just moved here from Oman, where I lived twice - once for one year and most recently for three years. Oman is an Arabic Sultanate bordering Yemen, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. At its closest point, Iran is about 24 miles away across the Strait of Hormuz. I've traveled throughout the Middle East including Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and, of course Oman. I'm pretty well-versed on Middle Eastern issues and the history of Western involvement in the Middle East.

2) I agree with questioning authority, including political leaders.

3) I firmly believe that the citizens of a nation have a moral duty to at least be willing to defend that nation if they expect to have a right to the freedoms and privileges that defense of the nation brings them. To enjoy the fruits of others' sacrifices without at least being willing to do as much is dishonorable.

4) I didn't specifically say I support the Bush Doctrine. I simply pointed-out that the doctrine of Anticipatory Self-Defense has been formally recognized as customary international law for more than 150 years. Formally - since the Caroline Case of - I think it was 1840). However, any lawyers in the crowd will understand how international law works and that the Caroline Case was a formal recognition of pre-existing customary (vice codified by international convention) international law. So the doctrine effectively goes back a heck of a lot further. How this got re-named the Bush Doctrine I'll never know.

5) The folks on flight 93 acted with great bravery. I think there should be a statue erected in their honor. I could care less about gay/straight, jewish, techie etc... and am not sure why you mention that.

6) No one would dare spit on these guys in uniform in today's environment - but that doesn't mean they don't want to. As an aside, though, during the first gulf war (1990/1) a woman in my class actually stated that she refused to give blood so as not to help the war effort! Hard to believe.

7) I just plain disagree with Louis in too many ways to state. His is a list of non-sequitors.

8) Whether traveling in Europe or elsewhere, I don't often run into the kind of European that is described as being surprised we know how to use the knife and fork - a few, sure, but not many. Even the French, who have a reputation as being rude, are generally extremely polite and welcoming in my experience. My daughter was actually baptized on the bridge of a French Navy ship!


Message edited by author 2008-10-23 10:04:52.
10/23/2008 10:45:19 AM · #123
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

I'm not going to quote you all because it would take up too much space; but I'll try to address as many of you as possible where it had to do with me.

1) Are you American or Senegalese? I'm an American living in Senegal. I just moved here from Oman, where I lived twice - once for one year and most recently for three years. Oman is an Arabic Sultanate bordering Yemen, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. At its closest point, Iran is about 24 miles away across the Strait of Hormuz. I've traveled throughout the Middle East including Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and, of course Oman. I'm pretty well-versed on Middle Eastern issues and the history of Western involvement in the Middle East.



Thanks, you just had me a bit confused when you stated your "frosty neighbors to the North" in a previous post. I know were heading towards global colding, but I didn't think it started just yet.
10/23/2008 11:26:57 AM · #124
Originally posted by OmanOtter:


I lose a lot of respect for Canadians when I see them travelling the world with their flag posted so prominently on their backpacks - as so many of your countrymen do. They are clearly saying "Don't confuse me with an American. I'm just a peaceful Canadian. We never hurt anybody. So, please Mr. Terrorist. Don't kill me; go find an American to kill." All the while they forget that Canada is one of the United States' closest military allies. You're in Afghanistan, by the way, and doing a pretty good job there. Canadian and American forces have fought side-by-side in almost every war for the last 100 years. And, American strength is Canada's primary defense. A population of 30 million of whom 90% live within 100 miles of the U.S. border cannot hope to defend a territory as large as yours. If the USSR had wanted to take Canada during the Cold War, the only thing stopping them was the U.S. Same goes for Russia, China etc... right now. Heck, Finland would stand a pretty good chance without the U.S. backing you. That's not intended as an insult, by the way; it's just a mathematical fact. I have tremendous respect for Canada - but not for that seemingly significant portion of your population that gets this chip on their shoulders trying so hard to assert their differences from Americans when there really aren't many of any significance. And so frequently I hear Canadians making Canada out to be a country that never hurt anyone and was therefore more moral than the United States when Canada, by virtue of its tiny population, simply can't be as visibly involved in world affairs as the United States and therefore doesn't get the opportunity to do things that can lead to criticism and secondly forgetting that Canada is almost ALWAYS in support of U.S. military efforts in one fashion or another. If not with boots on the ground, then in some indirect but significan support. Face it, Canada is a CLOSE U.S. military ally.

Finally, let's not forget the atrocities that Canadian soldiers committed in Somalia.

But I forgive them. And I really do like your country.


What about Americans sewing Canadian flags to their backpacks so they won't get a knife stuck into their backs as they're walking any European street?

As Louis stated, WE, THE CANADIAN PEOPLE, are not in favour of our presence in Afghanistan but understand that we are needed by our American friends so we're helping you do your thing. It has nothing to do with power or the use of force upon an unarmed nation.

Your use of the 'you need us mentality' is old and was used to tame our past Prime Ministers into thinking we were inferiour to your ways and that we absolutely needed your defense from the baddies over there in Russia. Ask ANY Russian politician about the idea of invading Canada from the west and you will be laughed at and ridiculed for even bringing it up. Even in today's context with Canada having oil, it would not make sense to invade here. Your old scare tactics are from the 50's, and they make for a good laugh. LOL
10/23/2008 12:39:56 PM · #125
Originally posted by Jac:

What about Americans sewing Canadian flags to their backpacks so they won't get a knife stuck into their backs as they're walking any European street?


I don't know of any; and I wouldn't respect any who did. My hero would be LtCol William Higgins, U.S. Marine Corps, who, while serving in with the United Nations Troop Supervisory Organization in Lebanon was warned that he was a target. Canadian Major Vern McKeen, who was concerned for LtCol Higgins' safety, offered him an adhesive Canadian flag patch to put over the American flag on his uniform in order to prevent him from being such a target. LtCol Higgins thanked the well-intentioned Major McKeen but declined, stating words to the effect that he would prefer to die in the uniform of his country than hide from those who would do it harm. On Feb 17, 1989 LtCol Higgins was kidnapped, tortured and hanged by Iranian-backed Hizbollah.

I lived in France for a year, Japan for a year, Oman for four years, now I'm in Senegal for the next two. I have traveled freely and walked the streets in Spain, Luxembourg, Italy, France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon, Cyprus, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Senegal, South Africa, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Mexico, Japan, Cambodia, Singapore, Thailand and even Quebec (Je me souviens!) without any trouble.

Originally posted by JAC:

As Louis stated, WE, THE CANADIAN PEOPLE, are not in favour of our presence in Afghanistan but understand that we are needed by our American friends so we're helping you do your thing. It has nothing to do with power or the use of force upon an unarmed nation.


Your view may represent that of the majority of Canadians, but it does not represent that of all Canadians - Thank God. I understand your opposition to Iraq. Your opposition to Afghanistan is incomprehensible to me. But I salute the brave Canadian soldiers who are there. I've seen some good footage of their actions in Afghanistan.

Originally posted by JAC:

Your use of the 'you need us mentality' is old and was used to tame our past Prime Ministers into thinking we were inferiour to your ways and that we absolutely needed your defense from the baddies over there in Russia. LOL


This language is revelatory of the chip on the shoulder I sometimes encounter.

But I will be forever grateful to the Government of Canada for allowing the many American diplomats and their families in Tehran during the American hostage crisis of the 1970s to escape by issuing them Canadian passports to fool the Iranians.

Message edited by author 2008-10-23 13:03:53.
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