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10/20/2008 02:12:28 PM · #126
Originally posted by Jedusi:

Originally posted by Bujanx:

snip . .

Umpossible! There's nothing interesting in Ottawa =)



What - not even Otta's ?

So where do they come from then ??

:- P


The only wild animals round these parts are the politicians ;P

10/20/2008 02:23:11 PM · #127
someone just gave me a 3 ugh...thanks alot!!
10/20/2008 02:29:39 PM · #128
Originally posted by Jedusi:

Originally posted by Bujanx:

snip . .

Umpossible! There's nothing interesting in Ottawa =)



What - not even Otta's ?

So where do they come from then ??

:- P


They come from Ottawatta :P
10/20/2008 02:33:29 PM · #129
Originally posted by BeeCee:

Originally posted by Jedusi:

Originally posted by Bujanx:

snip . .

Umpossible! There's nothing interesting in Ottawa =)



What - not even Otta's ?

So where do they come from then ??

:- P


They come from Ottawatta :P


Ottas from Ottawatta cos there's a lotta watta! Sorry, had to pitch in there, teehee.
10/20/2008 02:38:19 PM · #130
I just turned off score for the first time. Let's see how long I can fight with my addiction.
10/20/2008 02:39:59 PM · #131
Don't forget the vast number of snivel err, civil servants roaming the downtown core...

Votes: 65
Views: 120
Avg Vote: 6.3385
Comments: 6
Favorites: 0

10/20/2008 02:46:07 PM · #132
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by SaraR:



Wildlife photography is a specific genre in its own right, with unwritten rules and assumptions regarding the methodology used - and a zoo shot does not fall into the category.


Care to share what those unwritten rules and assumptions are?

Here's my take.

There are no "real" natural environments anymore. Whether it's a zoo, a man made garden, a city park, or a nature preserve, all of these environments have been touched by human intervention. Is a shot taken in a wildlife park where the animals are fed and populations controlled any more or less set up than a shot taken in a zoo? To the animal that was born and lived its entire life in a zoo living it what it perceives as its natural environment, that IS its natural environment.

The challenge description did not say "Take a wildlife picture in the wild".

I believe in sticking to the rules, but also acknowledge that they are sometimes open to interpretation.

If you want to see some wild interpretations, check out any of the Environmental Portrait challenges.


I think that the interpretation of "In their natural habitat" is being "shoehorned" into this challenge this time because so many of us can misunderstand just what was orginally meant. To say that a tiger, lion etc. has a natural habitat of concrete and iron walls and fencing, built by man in a zoo somewhere in Toronto, or Los Angeles, is not exactly "natural". It may be their "habitat" now, but it is definitely not their natural habitat by any means of the words.

However, a wildlife park is a slightly different story. Usually, the wildlife inhabitants to that park are indigenous to that particular area. They are simply being "protected" by man in living in their natural environment. A zoo does NOT fit this category as most of the animals in a zoo are definitely NOT indigenous to the area that the zoo is placed and not living in their natural enviroments.

In any OTHER challenge, if someone were to have photographed something even remotely outside of the challenge criteria or a more subtle version of it, voters would be leaping with comments to let us know that our shots do not fit within that framework/criteria! Think about that. Why then, does THIS particular challenge differ? Why is it ok to stray from challenge description on this one and not all of the others?

How does someone who has taken a shot of a squirrel for instance (I do not have a squirrel in mine) compete against the majesty of a lion or tiger? How does one who doesn't live near a zoo, compete with majestic bison or moose? (don't know what the plural is to that one. LOL) It isn't fair and WHOMEVER set up the challenge criteria (doesn't matter who), should have been more clear about it ie: NO ZOO shots! or, simply called it Wildlife (end of story). That would have made it more abundantly clear. However, to say "in their natural habitats" and THEN, on another thread (that not all of us obviously saw), say...zoos are acceptable as natural habitats is just plain "shoehorning" in interpretation. :)


... and animals born in captivity would have a natural habitat of what?


Touche....BUT.......do people check to see WHICH animals were born in captivity before shooting them? ;-)
10/20/2008 02:49:38 PM · #133
Came THAT close to breaking 6 then started dropping again :(
10/20/2008 02:50:31 PM · #134
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by SaraR:



Wildlife photography is a specific genre in its own right, with unwritten rules and assumptions regarding the methodology used - and a zoo shot does not fall into the category.


Care to share what those unwritten rules and assumptions are?

Here's my take.

There are no "real" natural environments anymore. Whether it's a zoo, a man made garden, a city park, or a nature preserve, all of these environments have been touched by human intervention. Is a shot taken in a wildlife park where the animals are fed and populations controlled any more or less set up than a shot taken in a zoo? To the animal that was born and lived its entire life in a zoo living it what it perceives as its natural environment, that IS its natural environment.

The challenge description did not say "Take a wildlife picture in the wild".

I believe in sticking to the rules, but also acknowledge that they are sometimes open to interpretation.

If you want to see some wild interpretations, check out any of the Environmental Portrait challenges.


I think that the interpretation of "In their natural habitat" is being "shoehorned" into this challenge this time because so many of us can misunderstand just what was orginally meant. To say that a tiger, lion etc. has a natural habitat of concrete and iron walls and fencing, built by man in a zoo somewhere in Toronto, or Los Angeles, is not exactly "natural". It may be their "habitat" now, but it is definitely not their natural habitat by any means of the words.

However, a wildlife park is a slightly different story. Usually, the wildlife inhabitants to that park are indigenous to that particular area. They are simply being "protected" by man in living in their natural environment. A zoo does NOT fit this category as most of the animals in a zoo are definitely NOT indigenous to the area that the zoo is placed and not living in their natural enviroments.

In any OTHER challenge, if someone were to have photographed something even remotely outside of the challenge criteria or a more subtle version of it, voters would be leaping with comments to let us know that our shots do not fit within that framework/criteria! Think about that. Why then, does THIS particular challenge differ? Why is it ok to stray from challenge description on this one and not all of the others?

How does someone who has taken a shot of a squirrel for instance (I do not have a squirrel in mine) compete against the majesty of a lion or tiger? How does one who doesn't live near a zoo, compete with majestic bison or moose? (don't know what the plural is to that one. LOL) It isn't fair and WHOMEVER set up the challenge criteria (doesn't matter who), should have been more clear about it ie: NO ZOO shots! or, simply called it Wildlife (end of story). That would have made it more abundantly clear. However, to say "in their natural habitats" and THEN, on another thread (that not all of us obviously saw), say...zoos are acceptable as natural habitats is just plain "shoehorning" in interpretation. :)


... and animals born in captivity would have a natural habitat of what?


Touche....BUT.......do people check to see WHICH animals were born in captivity before shooting them? ;-)


And can you tell just by looking at a photo? Shannon I think put it best earlier in this thread.

Now back to our regularly scheduled whining scoring thread. ;o)
10/20/2008 02:51:35 PM · #135
Originally posted by Qart:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by SaraR:



Wildlife photography is a specific genre in its own right, with unwritten rules and assumptions regarding the methodology used - and a zoo shot does not fall into the category.


Care to share what those unwritten rules and assumptions are?

Here's my take.

There are no "real" natural environments anymore. Whether it's a zoo, a man made garden, a city park, or a nature preserve, all of these environments have been touched by human intervention. Is a shot taken in a wildlife park where the animals are fed and populations controlled any more or less set up than a shot taken in a zoo? To the animal that was born and lived its entire life in a zoo living it what it perceives as its natural environment, that IS its natural environment.

The challenge description did not say "Take a wildlife picture in the wild".

I believe in sticking to the rules, but also acknowledge that they are sometimes open to interpretation.

If you want to see some wild interpretations, check out any of the Environmental Portrait challenges.


I think that the interpretation of "In their natural habitat" is being "shoehorned" into this challenge this time because so many of us can misunderstand just what was orginally meant. To say that a tiger, lion etc. has a natural habitat of concrete and iron walls and fencing, built by man in a zoo somewhere in Toronto, or Los Angeles, is not exactly "natural". It may be their "habitat" now, but it is definitely not their natural habitat by any means of the words.

However, a wildlife park is a slightly different story. Usually, the wildlife inhabitants to that park are indigenous to that particular area. They are simply being "protected" by man in living in their natural environment. A zoo does NOT fit this category as most of the animals in a zoo are definitely NOT indigenous to the area that the zoo is placed and not living in their natural enviroments.

In any OTHER challenge, if someone were to have photographed something even remotely outside of the challenge criteria or a more subtle version of it, voters would be leaping with comments to let us know that our shots do not fit within that framework/criteria! Think about that. Why then, does THIS particular challenge differ? Why is it ok to stray from challenge description on this one and not all of the others?

How does someone who has taken a shot of a squirrel for instance (I do not have a squirrel in mine) compete against the majesty of a lion or tiger? How does one who doesn't live near a zoo, compete with majestic bison or moose? (don't know what the plural is to that one. LOL) It isn't fair and WHOMEVER set up the challenge criteria (doesn't matter who), should have been more clear about it ie: NO ZOO shots! or, simply called it Wildlife (end of story). That would have made it more abundantly clear. However, to say "in their natural habitats" and THEN, on another thread (that not all of us obviously saw), say...zoos are acceptable as natural habitats is just plain "shoehorning" in interpretation. :)


Seems to me you've answered your own question. The reason
the powers didn't limit the challenge description is because the limits you're discussing don't exist.
We went through This last time almost post by post and I'm sure that if the challenge was meant to be limited in the way you suggest, it would have been. These folks are pretty good at what they do. If you DO take ã peak at the last forum, take ã minute and check out some of the other threads, such as 'please refrain from trying to influence opinion during the voting


Then, why not just post it as "Wildlife"...end of description?! :)

And, FYI, I'm not trying to "influence" ANYONE's voting. I'm debating a point on the wording as a lot of others have done in THIS thread. Had I been trying to influence scoring, I would have said something very different. But, we all know that voters in here will have their own criteria by which to judge photos no matter what challenge it is. Some will be fine with the non-literal versions and otherw won't. My discussing this topic was started by others. I have a right to my opinion too. Or, are you saying that all DPC voters are that easily "influenced" that they must be "shielded"? ;)
10/20/2008 02:55:02 PM · #136
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:

Not to sound like a wildlife natzi, but a picture of a duck or a prairy dog doesnt hold up to a photo of a majestic animal such like a lion, tiger etc. There is a disavantage for those who decided to take pictures of prarie dogs and squirrels.


That was my point, exactly, Jaime! :) But, I seem to be being leapt upon for making it. :(
10/20/2008 02:56:29 PM · #137
Scoring part of thread;
Votes: 60
Views: 101
Avg Vote: 6.2500
Comments: 2

Whinning part of thread:
I have none. Just watching score threads challenge after challenge with this same issues....To Funny
10/20/2008 02:57:36 PM · #138
Anyone else find it a wee bit irritating when commenters copy and paste part of the challenge description in their comment?

Votes: 69
Views: 118
Avg Vote: 5.4493
Comments: 3
10/20/2008 02:58:19 PM · #139
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' photointerest, I'm failing to understand why this matters so much. If it's only about feeling like you went above and beyond to get an animal in the "real" wild, then what about the people that spent 3 days in miserable weather trying to photograph something and it just wasn't meant to be, who then went to the zoo/wildlife reserve/animal shelter/whatever to get something to put in the challenge to have something so that those 3 days weren't a complete waste of time?

Can you imagine their feelings if suddenly they're reading that they might get voted down because people all of a sudden want to put some arbitrary kind of limitation on photos in this challenge? Stuff like, "Lions aren't common, so they must be in a zoo"?

As someone stated earlier, it's best to vote giving the benefit of the doubt to the photographer, and focus on the positives of the shot itself. Doing anything else is not only unfair to the photographer, but it's detrimental to you as a voter. What goes around, comes around, as they say.

In the end, if you find out that a shot you loved was taken in a zoo or other man-controlled environment, compliment the photographer on finding a way to fool you, instead of finding a way to be offended that they didn't follow some arbitrary guidelines.
10/20/2008 03:11:31 PM · #140
Votes: 67
Views: 134
Avg Vote: 6.4179
Comments: 7
Favorites: 1

Wow, not sure what happened to the voters, but from a 5.7 to this, is a big jump in 8 hours. Nice surprise to come home to. Faves during challenges always rock.
10/20/2008 03:13:36 PM · #141
Votes: 68
Views: 144
Avg Vote: 6.4706
Comments: 6
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 10/20/08 03:10 pm

Yey! I'm definitely happy with a 6+ this early in the game, hopefully it stays there for a while. And 6 comments already! Only slight bummer is that I've gotten 2 comments about the whole "wildlife" thing, but my entry was in his nature habitat... aw well, can't please everyone :)
10/20/2008 03:17:12 PM · #142
Originally posted by karmat:

PhotoInterest -- You keep saying "natural habitat," but the challenge description, such as it is, says "natural environment."

Perhaps it is just semantics, but there IS a difference, IMO. If an animal was born in captivity, it is in its natural environment -- that is where it has always been. Also, a zoo is a natural environment for typical zoo animals. Its natural habitat may be the savannah in Africa.

Even more specifically, and the way you are using it, I think, is native habitat, which would definitely exclude zoo shots.

<these are my thoughts as a member, btw, not an official SC "definition">


Well, then, if that is the case where the word "habitat" and "environment" mean two completely different things I had better start paying closer attention to meanings because I had the chance to visit a zoo and could have gotten some much more powerful shots than I did get by sticking to a definition that I think at least half us who entered took it to mean. I would have had a lot more subjects to work with since I don't live near a Wildlife preserve, park or out in the woods. I worked with what a I had to work with, in a city, at this time of the year and as I'm sure quite a number of us are experiencing, that can't compete with some of the zoo shots. They may be well shot, but when the subject matter is considered less appealing due to its common nature by comparison to an exotic animal, then voters are obviously, even subconsciously, going to go towards the more "pleasing" and "exciting" zoo type of wildlife, aren't they?

I know that there are members in here who are afraid of voicing a less than popular opinion on certain matters in fear of being leaped upon by other members. I also know that there are a heck of a lot of others who feel the same way and share the same opinion but, don't dare to say it in fear of the above happening. But, I think that when people go to the trouble and effort to stay within challenge guidelines and make a great attempt to take as good a shot as they are capable of taking, while others gain an eyecatching advantage because of a misunderstood/loosely defined term in a definition, it feels rather foolish to have put that kind of effort into getting a shot. But, that is me. I am the type of person who will speak my mind. :)

Personally, my shoes have JUST dried out from the mud I crawled through in a woodland area to get my shot! So, I guess that I am happy right now ;)

Ok, I've said enough now on this particular subject. :) (Do I hear rounds of applause and a roaring cheer on that statement?)

10/20/2008 03:19:02 PM · #143
Ok everyone, let's all just slow down and take a deep breath. The entries are in, wild/zoo/nature preserve etc etc.

Just give the photog the benefit of the doubt, that the shot was taken to depict a wild animal or bird, in as natural a setting as possible at the time. Judge the photos on their technical and artistic merits. If a shot really bothers you for some reason, address the photog in a comment rather than dragging it here to the forums.

*getting off soapbox now*

Votes: 69
Views: 125
Avg Vote: 6.3768
Comments: 6
Favorites: 0

Pinch me!

Message edited by author 2008-10-20 15:23:03.
10/20/2008 03:23:11 PM · #144
Scoring thread!!

Oh, and a whole bunch of folks who enter never read the challenge description at all. Even more don't read the forums. :-)
10/20/2008 03:29:09 PM · #145
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

I am the type of person who will speak my mind. :)


Which is wonderful, but try not to take out "I don't have access to the same things other people do" frustrations on the challenge images eh? One of the challenges we have is to find a creative way to make what we do have access to as appealing to the voters as possible.

I've seen award winning images of Crows. The very thought that a person might ding someone because they have access to "more appealing subjects" than someone else is pretty disheartening.

*Edit* oh right, scores:

Votes: 73
Views: 139
Avg Vote: 6.4521
Comments: 3

Haven't changed much since a couple of hours ago.

Message edited by author 2008-10-20 15:31:13.
10/20/2008 03:30:12 PM · #146
Originally posted by snaffles:


Avg Vote: 6.3768
Pinch me!

Hey, nice score Susan!
10/20/2008 03:31:20 PM · #147
Originally posted by snaffles:

Ok everyone, let's all just slow down and take a deep breath. The entries are in, wild/zoo/nature preserve etc etc.

Just give the photog the benefit of the doubt, that the shot was taken to depict a wild animal or bird, in as natural a setting as possible at the time. Judge the photos on their technical and artistic merits. If a shot really bothers you for some reason, address the photog in a comment rather than dragging it here to the forums.

*getting off soapbox now*

Votes: 69
Views: 125
Avg Vote: 6.3768
Comments: 6
Favorites: 0

Pinch me!


well said, i heard one person say that if you are able to keep all of the elements out of the shot that would say "ZOO" to the viewer, then by all means enter it into the wildlife challenge.
10/20/2008 03:33:25 PM · #148
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

I am the type of person who will speak my mind. :)


Which is wonderful, but try not to take out "I don't have access to the same things other people do" frustrations on the challenge images eh? One of the challenges we have is to find a creative way to make what we do have access to as appealing to the voters as possible.

I've seen award winning images of Crows. The very thought that a person might ding someone because they have access to "more appealing subjects" than someone else is pretty disheartening.

*Edit* oh right, scores:

Votes: 73
Views: 139
Avg Vote: 6.4521
Comments: 3

Haven't changed much since a couple of hours ago.


I have to agree, having just voted on the challenge, some of the best shots IMHO are of the common urban/rural critters we see everyday.

Score: 5.26
10/20/2008 03:37:36 PM · #149
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by karmat:

PhotoInterest -- You keep saying "natural habitat," but the challenge description, such as it is, says "natural environment."

Perhaps it is just semantics, but there IS a difference, IMO. If an animal was born in captivity, it is in its natural environment -- that is where it has always been. Also, a zoo is a natural environment for typical zoo animals. Its natural habitat may be the savannah in Africa.

Even more specifically, and the way you are using it, I think, is native habitat, which would definitely exclude zoo shots.

<these are my thoughts as a member, btw, not an official SC "definition">


Well, then, if that is the case where the word "habitat" and "environment" mean two completely different things I had better start paying closer attention to meanings because I had the chance to visit a zoo and could have gotten some much more powerful shots than I did get by sticking to a definition that I think at least half us who entered took it to mean. I would have had a lot more subjects to work with since I don't live near a Wildlife preserve, park or out in the woods. I worked with what a I had to work with, in a city, at this time of the year and as I'm sure quite a number of us are experiencing, that can't compete with some of the zoo shots. They may be well shot, but when the subject matter is considered less appealing due to its common nature by comparison to an exotic animal, then voters are obviously, even subconsciously, going to go towards the more "pleasing" and "exciting" zoo type of wildlife, aren't they?

I know that there are members in here who are afraid of voicing a less than popular opinion on certain matters in fear of being leaped upon by other members. I also know that there are a heck of a lot of others who feel the same way and share the same opinion but, don't dare to say it in fear of the above happening. But, I think that when people go to the trouble and effort to stay within challenge guidelines and make a great attempt to take as good a shot as they are capable of taking, while others gain an eyecatching advantage because of a misunderstood/loosely defined term in a definition, it feels rather foolish to have put that kind of effort into getting a shot. But, that is me. I am the type of person who will speak my mind. :)

Personally, my shoes have JUST dried out from the mud I crawled through in a woodland area to get my shot! So, I guess that I am happy right now ;)

Ok, I've said enough now on this particular subject. :) (Do I hear rounds of applause and a roaring cheer on that statement?)


As I see it, though, it isn't that I am "losely defining" the challenge description, or misunderstanding it. I am simply pointing out, as I did before submissions ended, that "by definition" zoo shots are okay.

It is more than a touch ironic to me, that usually there is a clamoring to "open" the descriptions and not be so restrictive in how something is approached. Yet, for this challenge, there seems to be the opposite.

Oh yea, score? 5.3ish.

edited to correct grammar

Message edited by author 2008-10-20 15:39:02.
10/20/2008 03:41:52 PM · #150
Votes: 71
Views: 119
Avg Vote: 5.3803
Comments: 0
Favorites: 1

I figured this one to be a 5.5 at best but I did get a fav, kind of surprised no comments yet but at least one person understands me!
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