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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> WildlifeIV Scores thread
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10/21/2008 12:20:57 AM · #226
My comment was not so much about shooting for the challenge, I was more so hoping that people would be encouraged to try and find wildlife in the wild.
Because it is joyful. I no longer care really about scoring for challenges, tho I realize many do. I think as far as having a week to do it, that only makes it more of a challenge to level the playing field.
Shooting at zoos is not 'bad' it is just different than shooting in the wild. My shot is at 5.4 that is fine with me because of what I saw in my efforts to get the shot.
It is a different perspective in shooting. It is about seeing.
That is just my take.
10/21/2008 12:35:30 AM · #227
Originally posted by ellamay:

My comment was not so much about shooting for the challenge, I was more so hoping that people would be encouraged to try and find wildlife in the wild.


You're right the wild is a lot more fun and when you do get a good shot it is very rewarding and memorable and everyone who has not tried it should. I chased some deer around a local state park the other day trying to get a shot to enter and never got one good shot so I ended up entering something totally different but I had a great time.
10/21/2008 12:43:40 AM · #228
Originally posted by ellamay:

I am late in commenting on the whole wildlife/zoo debate.
These days 90% of what I shoot is wildlife. I would like to think I am a wildlife photographer.
It is NOT easy to do. Finding wildlife is tough. I am not looking for backyard birds and squirrels (tho they are fun too) but bears, bobcats and coyotes, animals that are potential dangerous and definitely aloof.

The first few times I found bears in the wild I was shaking so much I could not shoot. It was a sow in a tree with 2 cubs, I was about 10 feet away from the sow (thankfully I was in my car but still shaking because I knew she could reach me before I could get out of there safely. Sadly, I later found out this mom and cubs were shot and killed, but I digress.

On average for every 8 hrs of looking for wildlife IF, IF I get 10 minutes of finding an animal I am thrilled. Those 10 minutes make the waiting with a full bladder, often in the cold, barely moving, make me come back day after day and wish I could be there more.
In the 10 minutes I do get to see something, I hope:
It is not just the hind end running away.
That I have some kind of light to work with.
That the animal does something of interest and that my settings are right to capture the action.
Most times, I do not get those things working together.

Wildlife, true wildlife shots are the hardest to take. Your subject is completely unpredictable. It can leave at any time, move where it wants or not at all.
It is a pure gift to get a wildlife shot. It is miraculous to get a truly wow/ great wildlife shot. It is not the same as shooting in a zoo. I agree that it is sometimes hard to know if a shot was taken in the wild or not. But if you are a reputable wildlife photographer and submit a shot to say National Geographic and try to pass a zoo shot off as a wildlife shot and get caught you will never work with them again.

But more importantly, if you are shooting 'wildlife' in a zoo you are completely missing the joy and magic of it. The beauty of shooting wildlife is its "wildness".
You are not just doing a disservice to just your viewer, but to yourself if you think shooting in a zoo is shooting wildlife.


SSSShhhhhhhh!!! You'll get hushed like I was for such an opinion! ;) There's Lions and Tigers and Bears in here...oh my....just WAITING for any "zoo shot dissenters" to make a move and they'll PROUNCE on ya! ;)
10/21/2008 12:45:21 AM · #229
Originally posted by Katmystiry:

I couldn't agree more!! I'm not in this challenge because I knew this debate would ensue .. I'm in the city and submitting a squirrel or pigeon is just not going to get the votes anyone hopes for. Next time this challenge comes up maybe the description should read "zoo or nature" to prevent the bickering!

Originally posted by PapaBob:

I think shooting in the wild is fantastic and love to do just that, but this is a challenge where everyone is given one week to get a shot of wildlife and the shots are not going to go to National Geographic. I think it may be a little bit much to expect everyone who wants to participate to be able to track down wild animals in suburbia in October. So either we limit the challenge to a handful of entries or we just relax and enjoy what everyone submits, after all this is really just for fun!


Smart woman, Kit! :) Smart move! ;)
10/21/2008 12:48:36 AM · #230
GRRRR!! 99 votes, 5.9897... one more 6 and I'd hit the 6 finally. So what do I get? A 3...
10/21/2008 01:27:25 AM · #231
Originally posted by Katmystiry:

I couldn't agree more!! I'm not in this challenge because I knew this debate would ensue .. I'm in the city and submitting a squirrel or pigeon is just not going to get the votes anyone hopes for. Next time this challenge comes up maybe the description should read "zoo or nature" to prevent the bickering!


Or may be Langdon likes watching all this bickering.. ;-) ;-)

If you ask me, it is more about fun. This isnt a panel judged art contest (I admit that is what I thought when I first came to this site;-)... and that is why we have people jumping out for those who (+-ively) criticize their shots.. and that is why we have the posthumous ribbons awarded.. and that is also why I have a laugh of the day when someone votes my entry a 1.0 within seconds of when the voting starts.. on a shot I drove 50 miles to take.. and broke (not literally) my legs crouching on the ground waiting to get a perfect angle in not so perfect lighting and interfering crowds (you guessed it.. it was in a zoo.. ehehhhh). I am barely touching a 5.0 score... but I love my shot and I could share it with so many viewers a handful of which will also take time to comment on it.

In the end, as much as I agree with people watching the challenge description strictly (I do too), I would say we could take more fun than stress from DPC. Who needs more stress from such a community after a day's struggle with gas prices and mortgage and the office politics?

Smile:-)
10/21/2008 01:41:01 AM · #232
Something tells me Langdon is not not around watching the bickering LOL
10/21/2008 02:20:13 AM · #233
Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by Katmystiry:

I couldn't agree more!! I'm not in this challenge because I knew this debate would ensue .. I'm in the city and submitting a squirrel or pigeon is just not going to get the votes anyone hopes for. Next time this challenge comes up maybe the description should read "zoo or nature" to prevent the bickering!

Originally posted by PapaBob:

I think shooting in the wild is fantastic and love to do just that, but this is a challenge where everyone is given one week to get a shot of wildlife and the shots are not going to go to National Geographic. I think it may be a little bit much to expect everyone who wants to participate to be able to track down wild animals in suburbia in October. So either we limit the challenge to a handful of entries or we just relax and enjoy what everyone submits, after all this is really just for fun!


Smart woman, Kit! :) Smart move! ;)


Meh. I went out looking for wildlife in and around surburbia and found it. Although it probably never had a shot at a ribbon it's at least doing well (6.41). It was actually kind of fun trying to track the animal down. That beats shooting something staring back at you in a zoo any day of the week.

Message edited by author 2008-10-21 02:21:17.
10/21/2008 07:05:21 AM · #234
Originally posted by PapaBob:

Votes: 97
Views: 163
Avg Vote: 5.4536
Comments: 3
Favorites: 1

Originally posted by ellamay:


But more importantly, if you are shooting 'wildlife' in a zoo you are completely missing the joy and magic of it. The beauty of shooting wildlife is its "wildness".
You are not just doing a disservice to just your viewer, but to yourself if you think shooting in a zoo is shooting wildlife.


I think shooting in the wild is fantastic and love to do just that, but this is a challenge where everyone is given one week to get a shot of wildlife and the shots are not going to go to National Geographic. I think it may be a little bit much to expect everyone who wants to participate to be able to track down wild animals in suburbia in October. So either we limit the challenge to a handful of entries or we just relax and enjoy what everyone submits, after all this is really just for fun!


This is exactly why I am very frustrated that for purposes of this challenge the SC deliberately and for no apparent reason chose to limit the scope of what constitutes "wildlife". I would rather see a great shot of a wild insect or fish than a picture of some exotic animal taken in a zoo. It seems the point was not to get a great animal shot but to challenge yourself to photograph an animal that is living in the wild.
10/21/2008 07:26:18 AM · #235
The SC has nothing to do with challenge descriptions. The Big Man On Campus (the guy that owns this place) does that. Take it up with him when he gets back from his honeymoon. And apparently my whole bit about "the challenge is really quite enjoyable to view and vote" wandered off into the ether without being read by anyone at all....
10/21/2008 08:05:23 AM · #236
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

<snip>
So I respect that true wildlife shooting is amazingly difficult and rewarding, but this is DPC. We have a wide range of people with a wide range of abilities, equipment, and access to wilderness. So kudos to everyone that got out there and got muddy, seriously, but kudos to everyone else that got out there and got creative in a zoo too, because dammit, zoo shooting can be difficult as well, and rewarding. The next time someone tells me that I didn't work after sitting near the tiger cage for 6 hours on a cold wet bench just waiting for the damn thing to come out of his shelter, I'ma cram my 80-200mm lens somewhere! ;)

*Disclaimer: My entry isn't a Tiger*



I think perhaps you are missing the point K10. The people who went and shot "real" wildlife shots should not be judged in the same competition as zoo shots. I have not problem at all with zoo shots, they can be very emotive and beautiful. However the level of time/perserverence involved in "real" wildlife makes it a travesty to judge them in the same competition as zoo shots. I would like to think (however no one really knows except Langdon) that is what was intended by the caveat "in their natural environement" mentioned in this challenge description. Just because you can use your 150-500 mm lens to blur away the fence and zoom in close enough to not see the fake rocks etc in the zoo does not mean that you have photographed something "in it's natural environment". We have had previous challenges specifically for zoo shots, so why bring zoo shots to a wildlife challenge? They are certainly not wild.

The problem as always is where do you draw the line? There are true wildlife photos taken in the brush where the animals roam freely and go about their business without human dependence, then there are zoo shots. There are also the "wildlife sanctuary" shots where you are in a large multi-acre park which is roaming with wildlife with no fences, and it can certainly be a "natural environment" however the animals were placed in this park and are regularly fed by humans, so they have little fear of humans because they know humans mean food, and have never been hunted. Which case does this fall under? I really do not know. I have DPC friends who regularly shoot at sanctuarys that get amazing shots of birds feeding etc that are the same kind of birds that I try to shoot in the wild, without having been able to get that feeding shot yet. I have no issue with them taking the shots because they are beautiful and available, but are they wild? Not sure. I know I am against zoo shots in a wildlife challenge but sanctuary shots are on the fence for me.

The bald eagle shot on my home page was actually taken in the wild, not a zoo or sanctuary. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/813/120/653110.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/813/120/653110.jpg', '/') + 1) . 'It pisses me off every time I see a shot of an eagle/owl etc which is full facial and I can be 99% sure that it was taken at a zoo or at a sanctuary. Unfortunately for me the wild Bald Eagle is not guaranteed to be there every day so I was not able to wait for the perfect day or the perfect light to shoot it in, so I shot as is and it is not a perfect photo by any stretch, but I know it is a REAL photo. So the point is that because mine is REAL it cannot compete with the set up shots due to not having a choice in lighting etc for this once in a lifetime shot. For the difficulty of it I believe it should not have to be judged by the same criteria as zoo shots. In my case there was not a wildlife challenge on at the time so mine was entered in a free study where it is obvously open to being up against zoo and sanctuary shots. It is a shame that we are not forced to put somewhere visible to the voter whether the shot is wild or sanctuary or zoo so they can be weighted differently by those that wish to do so. Yes my opinion is biased and I have no problem admitting that. I am just giving an opinion from the perspective of someone who has been effected by this debate previously.

ETA: I did not enter this challenge

Message edited by author 2008-10-21 08:06:55.
10/21/2008 08:32:10 AM · #237
Well as an underwater photographer I can see how the "Zoo" thing can bug other photographers. Real wild life photo takes alot of time and you are always affected by the elements. And for some reason the real wild photo's never seem to score as well as others most of the time. But just cause there might be a close up of an owl or whatever doesnt mean it hasn't been shot in the wild. I shot in the wild and am convinced my shot (tho doing well) is being judged as a zoo shot in some cases.

In the end simply : I think Wild life shooters are rattled as it takes more to achieve a great shot in the wild thatn at the zoo in most cases
Judge fairly you never know if it's a true wild shot or not.
10/21/2008 08:38:11 AM · #238
Isn't this the score thread?
10/21/2008 08:46:31 AM · #239
Originally posted by Motek:

Well as an underwater photographer I can see how the "Zoo" thing can bug other photographers. Real wild life photo takes alot of time and you are always affected by the elements. And for some reason the real wild photo's never seem to score as well as others most of the time. But just cause there might be a close up of an owl or whatever doesnt mean it hasn't been shot in the wild. I shot in the wild and am convinced my shot (tho doing well) is being judged as a zoo shot in some cases.

In the end simply : I think Wild life shooters are rattled as it takes more to achieve a great shot in the wild thatn at the zoo in most cases
Judge fairly you never know if it's a true wild shot or not.


Great points, and I feel bad that yours is one that might be mistaken for a zoo shot. That is why once again Langdon could have stated "no zoo shots" but did not do so and so we have controversy. Or he could have said "please state at the end of your title either Z (for zoo) w (for wild) or s (for sanctuary) and then let people vote them for what they actually are. :( Another in a long line of non specific challenge descriptions that leave lots of people ticked off and turned off.

On that note, please get back to the scores. I am not in this challenge and just wanted to give my two cents. thanks for listening. :)
10/21/2008 08:53:03 AM · #240
Grrr....

Next freakin' challenge: Purple wool socks with no designs, patterns or words anywhere visible. Must be sized to fit an average sized man's foot (insert appropriate various sizing schemes to accomodate all possible world variations of such). Must be shot against a plain white background, with light from 45 degrees to the photographer's right, fill reflector to the left (your choice of angle.) Must be shot at ISO 100. No other objects should appear in the photograph. Must be shot on a Tuesday, and edited on Thursday or Friday (your choice). Title will be "Purple Wool Sock". Variations are not authorized.
10/21/2008 08:54:00 AM · #241
Originally posted by basssman7:

So the point is that because mine is REAL it cannot compete with the set up shots due to not having a choice in lighting etc for this once in a lifetime shot.

Zoo animals are REAL too, but they cannot compete with a wild shot because they generally lack the context of wilderness, and the shots are often constrained by poor lighting, camera-unfriendly fences, artificial structures and animal apathy. If you have access to a decent animal in the wild, then you have little to complain about. If you think even pro photographers shoot their wildlife in the wild, you're only fooling yourself.

Oh, score: yes. ;-)
10/21/2008 08:54:40 AM · #242
Originally posted by Melethia:

Grrr....

Next freakin' challenge: Purple wool socks with no designs, patterns or words anywhere visible. Must be sized to fit an average sized man's foot (insert appropriate various sizing schemes to accomodate all possible world variations of such). Must be shot against a plain white background, with light from 45 degrees to the photographer's right, fill reflector to the left (your choice of angle.) Must be shot at ISO 100. No other objects should appear in the photograph. Must be shot on a Tuesday, and edited on Thursday or Friday (your choice). Title will be "Purple Wool Sock". Variations are not authorized.


:)
10/21/2008 09:03:01 AM · #243
Oh. And last night I voted about half the challenge, with the idea that I was enjoying the shots and not concerning myself over the entire background history of same. Tonight? You're all getting ones and twos. Randomly. That way I'm fair to all the zoo/non-zoo/wild/asphalt jungle shots. Luck of the draw whether I got to you last night or not. I'd add a smiley but you can determine for yourself whether or not I'm serious.

Votes: 100
Views: 165
Avg Vote: 5.6700
Comments: 8
Favorites: 1


Message edited by author 2008-10-21 09:06:36.
10/21/2008 09:06:40 AM · #244
Votes: 104
Views: 172
Avg Vote: 5.4423
Comments: 3
Favorites: 1

Proudly taken in the wild.....
10/21/2008 09:07:20 AM · #245
I really think one can get a nice zoo shot easier than a nice wildlife shot. Wilfelife is not easy. But that said, this challenge has some nice wildlife and nice zoo shots. I like to see how this is going to end up. How the Zoo vs Wildlife shots will stand since its pretty much agreed that the zoo shots were acceptable since the challenge did not state "NO Zoo shots"
10/21/2008 09:12:05 AM · #246
I'd like to mention that I just hit 5.000

Votes: 101
Views: 168
Avg Vote: 5.0000
Comments: 1

...

10/21/2008 09:25:28 AM · #247
100 vote check in...

Votes: 100
Views: 197
Avg Vote: 5.6600
Comments: 3
Favorites: 1
10/21/2008 09:25:39 AM · #248
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:

I like to see how this is going to end up.

Chances are, it'll end up something like the last three times we had this exact same challenge.
10/21/2008 09:25:48 AM · #249
100ish vote check-in:

Votes: 102
Views: 174
Avg Vote: 6.1667
Comments: 5

And MY picture is a ... well, that is to say it isn't a ... ya' know, thingamabob and I definitely took it ... somwhere and ... well, you'll see eventually ;-)

Off to comment on everyone else's lions, tigers, bears, pigeons, squirrels and etc.
10/21/2008 09:36:34 AM · #250
Votes: 103
Views: 213
Avg Vote: 6.2621
Comments: 10
Favorites: 0
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