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DPChallenge Forums >> Individual Photograph Discussion >> Olnos deserves an explanation!
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04/14/2004 02:27:28 PM · #51
Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:

" Olnos deserves an explanation! "???

Why?
I think that my images should have finished a lot higher than they did, but other people obviously didn't like them as much as I did.
Does that then mean that they should have to explain themselves to me for not voting higher?
I don't think so.


Please re-read my reasons in the original post. Photographically speaking this great image. If yours is such an image then it needs expanation too. If you want I can review an image of yours you felt got slighted and tell you how I scored it and why.


Maybe you should be the sole judge on all the challenges then?


Please, don't misinterprete. I am not saying I am "better". I'm saying that EVERYONE would think beyond "the wheel is too small and out of focus" as they grow with photography and expand their experience here at DPC. That is its purpose.
04/14/2004 02:41:58 PM · #52
Will we think beyond the "that image is flat and rather uninteresting" mentality, as well?
04/14/2004 02:43:53 PM · #53
Originally posted by lockjawdavis:

It's an average shot that received an average vote. Olnos apparently doesn't feel nearly as slighted as you do.


Could you please state your reasoning that this is an "average" shot? Everyone's opinion, by definition, is 100 percent right. I'd just like to understand the reasons behind it.

I'm sure Ola (olnos) will be amused should he see this. He will likely ask, "Who is that guy?". I apologize to him for picking on his photograph.


04/14/2004 02:50:43 PM · #54
Here's my previous quote...
Originally posted by lockjawdavis:

Since you asked...
It's a cute shot of a young girl, but there is little in this shot that holds any interest for me. Compositionally perfect? Heck, I'm no expert, but I don't think it's close to compositionally perfect. Also, the colors seem a bit flat due to the flash. This is a fantastic shot for a photo album, but I'm not sure the low scores are the fault of the voters here. It'd get a 4 or 5 from me.

...As I said, I'd be proud to have it in my photo album, but it's really not the standard-bearer for "great photography."
04/14/2004 02:54:44 PM · #55
Originally posted by Trinch:

Personally, I don't see the subject as the girl. Actually, I didn't see the subject as a noun for that matter. The subject was "learning to ride a bicycle". Since bicycles and wheels go hand in hand, I felt it met the theme quite well. Unfortunately, I didn't vote on that photo. But I would have likely given it a 5 or a 6. Had it somehow captured the learning part without the assistance of a title, it would have scored higher.


I agree with you about the main subject of the image. I did feel it captured the down side of the learning process marvelously. I rarely even read the title of images and it rarely influences my rating. A really clever one might up the score of a borderline case but dumb title will never penalize it.
04/14/2004 02:55:42 PM · #56
Originally posted by lockjawdavis:

Here's my previous quote...
Originally posted by lockjawdavis:

Since you asked...
It's a cute shot of a young girl, but there is little in this shot that holds any interest for me. Compositionally perfect? Heck, I'm no expert, but I don't think it's close to compositionally perfect. Also, the colors seem a bit flat due to the flash. This is a fantastic shot for a photo album, but I'm not sure the low scores are the fault of the voters here. It'd get a 4 or 5 from me.

...As I said, I'd be proud to have it in my photo album, but it's really not the standard-bearer for "great photography."


Fair enough. :)
04/14/2004 02:59:00 PM · #57
Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

bt this image obviously meets the challenge as well or better than most of the other images.


you're stating your opinion as fact. it's YOUR opinion. it's up to each of the voters to decide individually whether or not they think this meets the challenge. and in this case, you've apparently been outvoted.


Well said!

You are right, it is just my opinion and I am very much in the minority.

04/14/2004 03:02:24 PM · #58
Originally posted by justine:


Stdavidson...
In your opinion, but not in the opinion of the majority of voters. ...
Sorry, but dems da facts.


You are right, of course, and I'll take my 100 lashes with a wet noodle like a man. I cut out the parts I disagreed with. :)
04/14/2004 03:03:27 PM · #59
Originally posted by stdavidson:

I rarely even read the title of images and it rarely influences my rating.


Did you really mean to say that the way it came out? If you do that you are cheating the photographer. That's equivilant to viewing a photo large enough to require you to scroll the window to see all of it, but being too lazy to scroll and voting based on seeing only a portion of the image. The title is an integral part of the entry.
04/14/2004 03:05:57 PM · #60
I did not rate this highly (3) because I think that the girl overpowers the image and is detracting for me.


04/14/2004 03:11:46 PM · #61
Originally posted by chinstrap:

I did not rate this highly (3) because I think that the girl overpowers the image and is detracting for me.


Thanks for your explanation.
04/14/2004 03:14:33 PM · #62
I think the question, and all the replies, are completely out of line. The photo was voted as it was entered, and any kind of discussion other than, "what could I have done better..." is just ridiculous.

I actually feel insulted by the question and the accusation that it implies, even though I am not one of the 100 and something voters that did not like your image.

....but that's just me.

Message edited by author 2004-04-14 15:17:56.
04/14/2004 03:15:48 PM · #63
Originally posted by coolhar:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

I rarely even read the title of images and it rarely influences my rating.


Did you really mean to say that the way it came out? If you do that you are cheating the photographer. That's equivilant to viewing a photo large enough to require you to scroll the window to see all of it, but being too lazy to scroll and voting based on seeing only a portion of the image. The title is an integral part of the entry.


There are entries that use the title to somehow tie the picture to the challenge (cat and flower pics in general...). each challenge has a title - Wheels in the most recent case - and this is a photography site not one for titles or creative writing. I go by what i see first, and then perhaps look at the title if 'i don't get it'. This somewhat depends on the challenge, as in Strength one needs to read the title to 'get it' in a lot of the entries.
04/14/2004 03:19:15 PM · #64
I looked but didnt vote on this challenge. To me its a great candid for the album. I didnt really like the photo past that. I don't want to have to stare at a picture just to find reasons to like it. I want to like it right away and then find reasons to not like it. I think that's a characteristic of most winning photo's on this site. You 'just know' right away if it appeals to you.

Compositionally correct or not I dont like the composition on this one.
Anyway, I think for arguments sake it all comes down to personal preference and 113 people felt the same way about this one. I dont think its right to declare war on the voters opinions. Learn what you can in this challenge and apply it in the next.

04/14/2004 03:22:58 PM · #65
Originally posted by coolhar:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

I rarely even read the title of images and it rarely influences my rating.


Did you really mean to say that the way it came out? If you do that you are cheating the photographer. That's equivilant to viewing a photo large enough to require you to scroll the window to see all of it, but being too lazy to scroll and voting based on seeing only a portion of the image. The title is an integral part of the entry.


Yes, I did. Perhaps it is just me but titles generally are a neutral factor. Most images match their titles. But a great image is great even with a poor title. A poor image is poor not matter how clever the title. In the second case I would score it higher if it were a borderline image. It is perfectly fine with me if you feel the title means more.
04/14/2004 03:43:38 PM · #66
It's been discussed thoroughly but your original point is very valid. It's not only this particular picture that suffered from low points.

This is one of those pictures that deserves more than a cursory look because it tells a lot of stories. The problem I think is that most of us, including me sometimes, take the challenges literally and are trigger happy handing out points without really taking time to examine the pictures. If the 'wow' factor, whatever that is, is not evident at first glance, photos are voted down at the first instance.

It's my observation that immediately after the clock strikes 12 MN Eastern Time on Wednesdays and Mondays, there is a mad rush of scoring which you can follow by hitting the update every minute. You can pretty much have an idea also who the people are (by looking at who's online and how much time they've spent on the site :-))

Many probably come back and change their votes but I believe that if in that first hour if the average score is low, that will pretty much set the score even if the picture receives higher marks from viewers who take their time to vote later on in the week.

Going back to the particular picture, one has to look at this and probably study it some more to get its meaning and story. But to some of us, if the answer to the challenge is not there at first glance ... then it's relegated to the second or third tier of the hierarchy. And all the bull ...
04/14/2004 03:58:43 PM · #67
Originally posted by belchski:

I looked but didnt vote on this challenge. To me its a great candid for the album. I didnt really like the photo past that. I don't want to have to stare at a picture just to find reasons to like it. I want to like it right away and then find reasons to not like it. I think that's a characteristic of most winning photo's on this site. You 'just know' right away if it appeals to you.

Compositionally correct or not I dont like the composition on this one.
Anyway, I think for arguments sake it all comes down to personal preference and 113 people felt the same way about this one. I dont think its right to declare war on the voters opinions. Learn what you can in this challenge and apply it in the next.


I agree that you should not have to look at an image more than a few seconds to rate it accurately. A agree that this image has snapshot qualities. I agree personal preference play the greatest role. And I agree that 113 folks felt similar about it when they looked at it.

My hope is to grow in my knowledge and appreciation of photography to the point that in those few seconds I spend looking at an image I see more. I want to understand what makes an image "good" or "bad". The best way to do that is to vote and resolve discrerpancies when my vote varies significantly from the group. Mostly I'm concerned when I give a low score that the group rates high. Usually that is because I just blew it.

Less frequently I vote an image high that finishes so low. So I looked at it again and for the life of me can't figure out what is "bad" about it. That is why I want to understand those votes better.
04/14/2004 04:01:40 PM · #68
Originally posted by jbeazell:

I think the question, and all the replies, are completely out of line. The photo was voted as it was entered, and any kind of discussion other than, "what could I have done better..." is just ridiculous.

I actually feel insulted by the question and the accusation that it implies, even though I am not one of the 100 and something voters that did not like your image.

....but that's just me.


You have my apology for insulting you. I only wish to understand.

Message edited by author 2004-04-14 16:02:12.
04/14/2004 05:44:25 PM · #69
[quote=bill_hk2002] This seems like it might be a useful discussion for all, so, I'm willing to play guinea pig, and put up one of my weaker efforts for more scrutiny. Here is my Wheels submission and two outtakes that I seriously considered. In the two alternates, the wheel is more of the focal point of the photo, and in the submission, I tried to use the wheel as a prop.

In short, what I would appreciate is a quick summary of what are the scores and comments you would leave for each of these options.

Bill,

In my opinion, the one you selected is the superior choice. It has the main focal point of the mask, eyes. Even though out-of-focus the wheel is a lead-in line from bottom right - which takes you right up into the main subject. I scored it a solid 5.

In #2. The focus is soft on the face area, the sky detracts, the arms are cut off. It is a nice diagonal composition, but not as good as #1 overall. This one would most likely rated a 4.

#3 is dead center in the fram and also has the same sky and focus on the face problems. It would have scored 4 as well.

So - bottom line - you picked the best one...
04/14/2004 07:26:50 PM · #70
OK, I have to throw my 2 cents in this thread.

I'm kinda new here, been surfing the site for about 2 months months, started voting in open challenge for the last 4 or 5. I really don't comment but I make sure I vote on every pictures. I really do.

I've never submitted pictures here (yet) but I do consider myself a active member. I have notice one thing, challenge after challenge alot of members are obsessed with rating. If I remember well, I voted the little girl image a 6. But that's not the point. Photography, like art is on a very personnal basis. I can promise that what appeals to me is surely not the same thing that appeals to you guys. So a 8-9 for me can and will be a 1-2 to others. DPC is a great site for his voting system, it's annonymous and very open minded.

People, don't be obsess by the ranking after all, are you trying to please others or yourself ? If i'm satisfied with an image, than I consider my work done.
04/14/2004 08:03:45 PM · #71
Hey, I'm fairly new here as well, but felt the need to chime in. The problem lies in the ranking system itself. It is serious flawed if you consider it as process for critical review, unless everyone who votes supplies criticism. Since this is a virtual impossibility, the current system has to remain more of a popularity contest than anything else. I mean think about it, it is not required that a person vote on (or even look at) all the photos, so how can they really develop some sort of critical scale on which to judge the photos.

One improvement I would like to see is that if someone votes your photo below average (4 or 5), they would have to supply a reason why they didn't like it. It could be as simple as checking a box with a list of reasons (not on subject, composition, exposure, etc.) It's easy for me to say I don't like somethingwithout explanation, but if you don't like my photo, I'd like to know why. I doubt this will happen, so, in the end I just throw my photo out there for fun, realizing that the voting public as a whole always takes a way too literal view on the subject, and will tend toward cute or colorful over good technique in a photo. However, sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by the winners. Just my opinion...

Mike
04/16/2004 03:23:24 PM · #72
Hey, and thank you for your engagement in my photo! I'm pleased by the fact that you take photographing seriously. In my opinion the message in the image is more important than how well it suites the challenge. But I really mean it belongs in the Wheels-categoria. Just for fun I have posted another shot taken the same day, but some minutes earlier, - before she fell off the bike.(Check my profile) This is a real "posing" picture. And would maybe have got some higher scores. But to me it doesn't tell a story...
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