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11/18/2008 03:50:10 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
CNN article summary of pros/cons of auto bailout
I do find amusement in reading that some here who despise Bush - find themselves on the same side as his position against this bailout proposal. Perhaps all is not lost afterall. |
FWIW, I'm not necessarily against the bailout. I am against investing taxpayer dollars to simply allow the D3 to continue business as usual when that has clearly been a recipe for failure. I want to hear plans for substantive changes and improvements in the way they operate that justify the expense.
I also don't think there's any need to hold up the D3 as a shining example of great companies making the best vehicles, when, if that were the case, they wouldn't need bailing out. |
In case you missed this. There are a series of small file links to each of the 6 issues covering topics as the union, quality, small cars, SUV's, CEO compensation etc. |
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11/20/2008 12:38:14 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The D3 are certainly better than they were in the late '70's and 80's, but so are Honda, Toyota, Nissan and they had a big head start. |
From this 2008 JD Power survey released yesterday, it seems that several foriegn makers aren't so "on top of it" any more. With Jaguar, Hummer, Lexus and Cadillac taking the top 4 spots (with Hummer @ #2 above Lexus @ #3) all four with 5 full circle staisfaction ratings and Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, (and Jeep) at the bottom. Buick again does very well. Chevrolet is well ahead of the bottom companies - again affirming my claim that todays domestics can compete on a number of levels - if given the chance. Customer satisfaction is just one of them.
2008 JD Power survey
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11/20/2008 01:28:13 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
6 myths of the domestic automakers.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their (domestic automakers) vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year. |
If their volume is that great how is it that their business plan seems to avoid making money?
Originally posted by Flash:
Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry. |
That's "Initial" quality not long term quality. They're all going to be impressive to some degree when new.
Originally posted by Flash:
Myth No. 3
They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
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My experience with the Focus is that it's mediocre on economy. I get about 27 mpg with 90% Hwy driving. That's it. My old Civic got 34 mpg on the same drive. I expected better. The most efficient Corolla is pushing 40mpg.
Have you driven a Cobalt? Yuk.
Also, you should note that Chevy buys the Aveo from Daewoo. It contains 0% US produced parts.
Now Ford Europe has some impressively efficient vehicles like the 68 mpg Fiesta. Unfortunately it's not available in the U.S. It should also be noted that the Focus is not a product of Ford US, but was designed by Ford Europe, where it is quite popular.
Originally posted by Flash:
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now. |
Sure, OK.
Originally posted by Flash:
Myth No. 5
GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups. |
There's no doubt that the demand was high for oversized and overpowered Trucks and SUV's, but the writing has been on the wall for a long time that oil prices were going to go up and people were going to want smaller, economical cars again. It happened before, remember the 1970's? Gasoline rationing? That was what allowed the Japanese to penetrate the US market in the first place. The management at the D3 has been so myopic they simply weren't prepared for the coming shift.
Originally posted by Flash:
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.
Source: Todays Free Press |
I don't really think vehicles like the Escalade hybrid are really "green" vehicles, they still get crappy mileage, it's just less crappy than the non-hybrids, which are really crappy.
Which D3 hybrid gets the same mileage as the Prius or the Civic hybrid for a similar cost?
It should also be noted that GM killed the EV-1 electric car in the mid 90's when they could have picked up the ball and been a real innovator, they chose to make bigger trucks and mothball their learnings from the EV-1 until they were obsolete.
As usual, Honda is way ahead in thinking beyond the gas-electric hybrid and bringing technology to market. Honda Clarity They've had fuels cell cars in the hands of consumers for years, working on developing this technology. What has the Detroit 3 given us? Bigger trucks that suck more gas? yay... |
Good post Spazmo99. I would like to see JD Powers interview the same 35,000 people who took part in the survey ( below your post) and ask them how their vehicles are holding up after three years. I bet we'll see very different numbers. It's always been the problem with American cars, they break more often than Japanese cars, even today. Ask any mechanic who works in an independent garage.
Message edited by author 2008-11-20 13:28:56. |
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11/20/2008 02:10:19 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
The D3 are certainly better than they were in the late '70's and 80's, but so are Honda, Toyota, Nissan and they had a big head start. |
From this 2008 JD Power survey released yesterday, it seems that several foriegn makers aren't so "on top of it" any more. With Jaguar, Hummer, Lexus and Cadillac taking the top 4 spots (with Hummer @ #2 above Lexus @ #3) all four with 5 full circle staisfaction ratings and Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, (and Jeep) at the bottom. Buick again does very well. Chevrolet is well ahead of the bottom companies - again affirming my claim that todays domestics can compete on a number of levels - if given the chance. Customer satisfaction is just one of them.
2008 JD Power survey |
That survey has little to do with the actual vehicle being sold, it's about the "sales experience".
Originally posted by J.D. Power 2008 Sales Satisfaction Index:
Now in its 22nd year, the study is a comprehensive analysis of the new-vehicle purchase experience. Overall customer satisfaction is measured based on five factors: dealership facility; salesperson; paperwork/finance process; delivery process; and vehicle price. |
Again, I don't disagree with the government loaning the D3 money to stay in business. My point is they've been mis-managed, misguided and are now, ill-prepared to deal with the demand for practical and economical vehicles.
Any bailout loans to the D3 need to have strings and conditions attached regarding their plan for making economical and efficient vehicles. I'd also like to see regulations eased that prevent the D3 from bringing automobile designs into the US from their European operations (Ford Fiesta, Opel, etc.) without the extensive re-design (and expense)that would currently be required for domestic production. To further facilitate that, the government should take steps to reduce the price premium that is currently on diesel fuel since, by far, the most fuel efficient European vehicles are diesels. (e.g. The Ford Fiesta @ 68mpg and the Smart For Two @ 70+mpg) They're more economical and as clean or cleaner than hybrids in addition to being based on existing technology. Developing and selling hybrids is at best a low-profit margin venture.
Message edited by author 2008-11-20 14:26:54. |
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11/20/2008 02:40:29 PM · #105 |
| One of Detroit's biggest problems isn't quality. |
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11/20/2008 02:53:54 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
One of Detroit's biggest problems isn't quality. |
Are you alluding that the union wages are a problem?
Gettlefinger gave the inquisition an earfull today when he reminded them of all the tax breaks and free land they gave the competition (Mercedes/Nissan/etc) yet seem to be bent on blaming the Union for the current domesitic auto ills. Further I don't recall any democratic supporters saying they did not want the UAW's campaign donations or votes.
Odd that just a few years ago, GM was being heralded as the economic savior of America after 9/11 when their incentive programs jump started a faltering economy. Now they are the evil, can't do anything right, corporate monster. It just rakes my soul to see Dodd and Frank passing judgement on the domestic auto industry while they (Frank/Dodd) were the orchrastrators of this financial mess, with the interference of regulating Fannie and Freddie. Talk about hypocracy.
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11/20/2008 02:59:04 PM · #107 |
| What does any of that have to do with union workers getting paid too much? |
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11/20/2008 02:59:51 PM · #108 |
| I'm against subsidizing companies that make petrol-guzzling, carbon-spewing beasts. Let them declare bankruptcy and restructure. Auto companies and oil companies have been delaying the energy revolution with every scrap of their being for thirty years. Don't give them a penny of my tax dollars. |
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11/20/2008 03:02:25 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Again, I don't disagree with the government loaning the D3 money to stay in business. My point is they've been mis-managed, misguided and are now, ill-prepared to deal with the demand for practical and economical vehicles.
Any bailout loans to the D3 need to have strings and conditions attached regarding their plan for making economical and efficient vehicles. I'd also like to see regulations eased that prevent the D3 from bringing automobile designs into the US from their European operations (Ford Fiesta, Opel, etc.) without the extensive re-design (and expense)that would currently be required for domestic production. To further facilitate that, the government should take steps to reduce the price premium that is currently on diesel fuel since, by far, the most fuel efficient European vehicles are diesels. (e.g. The Ford Fiesta @ 68mpg and the Smart For Two @ 70+mpg) They're more economical and as clean or cleaner than hybrids in addition to being based on existing technology. Developing and selling hybrids is at best a low-profit margin venture. |
I don't think we are that far apart on basic sense. I have long questioned why we do not have diesel powered cars here in abundance?
Regarding the strings - I do not believe that the public has any idea on the changes that have been made over the last several years to address costs. Not the least of which was the historic agreement that included VEBA - that at the time was heralded as the breakthrough of the century and would surely send GM stock to $40 or even $50 a share. Hopefully the domestics will layout the miriad of cost cutting changes that have been inflicted on the ranks of those still employed.
edit to add: this sentence of yours is the real crux of the matter; "Developing and selling hybrids is at best a low-profit margin venture." Toyota is not making a profit on its hybrids. They get good press but the fact that Toyota has had more recalls than GM/Ford/and Chrysler seems to get swept under the rug.
Message edited by author 2008-11-20 15:19:18. |
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11/20/2008 03:11:27 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm against subsidizing companies that make petrol-guzzling, carbon-spewing beasts. Let them declare bankruptcy and restructure. Auto companies and oil companies have been delaying the energy revolution with every scrap of their being for thirty years. Don't give them a penny of my tax dollars. |
Then you must be against the tax breaks and free land given to the foriegn competition who also make these vehicles and have also lobbied against higher CAFE standards. |
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11/20/2008 03:15:35 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
What does any of that have to do with union workers getting paid too much? |
Are you claiming that union workers are paid too much? |
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11/20/2008 03:50:36 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm against subsidizing companies that make petrol-guzzling, carbon-spewing beasts. Let them declare bankruptcy and restructure. Auto companies and oil companies have been delaying the energy revolution with every scrap of their being for thirty years. Don't give them a penny of my tax dollars. |
Hmmm. I can understand your anger, but I doubt that all 3 companies would emerge from Ch 11. At least one, possibly all three would wind up in Ch 7...liquidated and sold piece by piece for pennies on the dollar. While that might sate the lust for blood that many seem to have with regard to the D3, the economic and social costs would be tremendous. Job losses in the millions, pensions, health care benes for retirees and employees...all gone.
The fact remains that the D3, despite their foot dragging on producing economical vehicles, are the best hope of producing such vehicles on a large scale in the US. In fact, they already produce some of the most efficient automobiles anywhere (e.g. The diesel Ford Fiesta).
You can't totally place the blame on the D3 either, to a large extent, they've simply been making vehicles their customers want to buy (SUV's, Pickups etc) and giving them the features that the customers demand (More comfort, more gadgets and more power...fuel economy be damned). Unfortunately, the overall market demand has shifted much quicker than their ability to re-tool to meet that change in what customers demand. (It's no easy thing to switch over an assembly plant to make little cars vs. big trucks).
Another thing, the government isn't handing out a $50 Billion gift to the D3, it would be a loan.
Given the potential impact, I don't see how the government can justify handing over $700 Billion to banks while denying the D3. |
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11/20/2008 03:57:34 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm against subsidizing companies that make petrol-guzzling, carbon-spewing beasts. Let them declare bankruptcy and restructure. Auto companies and oil companies have been delaying the energy revolution with every scrap of their being for thirty years. Don't give them a penny of my tax dollars. |
Then you must be against the tax breaks and free land given to the foriegn competition who also make these vehicles and have also lobbied against higher CAFE standards. |
Yeah, I'm against most corporate welfare. |
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11/20/2008 04:01:58 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You can't totally place the blame on the D3 either, to a large extent, they've simply been making vehicles their customers want to buy (SUV's, Pickups etc) and giving them the features that the customers demand (More comfort, more gadgets and more power...fuel economy be damned). Unfortunately, the overall market demand has shifted much quicker than their ability to re-tool to meet that change in what customers demand. (It's no easy thing to switch over an assembly plant to make little cars vs. big trucks). |
Actually, they created the demand for SUVs with their marketing and advertising campaigns. There's some French guy who created a whole advertising strategy based on making SUVs as big and ugly as possible, manipulating the subconscious desires of middle america. I know it sounds like I'm making this up, but it's true. And it's infuriating.
And I'm not punishing the D3, nor do I have any blood lust. I don't want to do anything to them at all. Let them stand or fall on their own merits. |
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11/20/2008 04:04:54 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Given the potential impact, I don't see how the government can justify handing over $700 Billion to banks while denying the D3. |
Amen. I don't want to give or loan money to banks, either. We might need to buy equity in some banks, though. Or buy some "toxic assets" at a reasonable price. |
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11/20/2008 04:20:25 PM · #116 |
How long have they been making cars? if they have not figured out how to make a profit doing it yet, they should go under.
You'd think their multi million dollar per year CEO's that fly around on the company jets would be smart enough to turn a profit? If not, what are they paid so much for? Making that much money to run things, and they have to beg for money! They should be very ashamed! |
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11/20/2008 04:27:30 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You can't totally place the blame on the D3 either, to a large extent, they've simply been making vehicles their customers want to buy (SUV's, Pickups etc) and giving them the features that the customers demand (More comfort, more gadgets and more power...fuel economy be damned). Unfortunately, the overall market demand has shifted much quicker than their ability to re-tool to meet that change in what customers demand. (It's no easy thing to switch over an assembly plant to make little cars vs. big trucks). |
Actually, they created the demand for SUVs with their marketing and advertising campaigns. There's some French guy who created a whole advertising strategy based on making SUVs as big and ugly as possible, manipulating the subconscious desires of middle america. I know it sounds like I'm making this up, but it's true. And it's infuriating.
And I'm not punishing the D3, nor do I have any blood lust. I don't want to do anything to them at all. Let them stand or fall on their own merits. |
Do you really think Americans are so stupid as to be led around by the nose that way?
I was exposed to all of the same marketing and advertising. I never bought an SUV, big truck or otherwise participated in vehicular excess? Ford advertised the heck out of the Edsel too. Didn't work to well. |
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11/20/2008 04:31:37 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You can't totally place the blame on the D3 either, to a large extent, they've simply been making vehicles their customers want to buy (SUV's, Pickups etc) and giving them the features that the customers demand (More comfort, more gadgets and more power...fuel economy be damned). Unfortunately, the overall market demand has shifted much quicker than their ability to re-tool to meet that change in what customers demand. (It's no easy thing to switch over an assembly plant to make little cars vs. big trucks). |
Actually, they created the demand for SUVs with their marketing and advertising campaigns. There's some French guy who created a whole advertising strategy based on making SUVs as big and ugly as possible, manipulating the subconscious desires of middle america. I know it sounds like I'm making this up, but it's true. And it's infuriating.
And I'm not punishing the D3, nor do I have any blood lust. I don't want to do anything to them at all. Let them stand or fall on their own merits. |
Do you really think Americans are so stupid as to be led around by the nose that way?
I was exposed to all of the same marketing and advertising. I never bought an SUV, big truck or otherwise participated in vehicular excess? Ford advertised the heck out of the Edsel too. Didn't work to well. |
Do you really think car companies wait around to see what's popular and then build it? They aggressively pushed bigger and badder SUVs. There's no moral difference between them and the cigarette companies.
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11/20/2008 05:06:16 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You can't totally place the blame on the D3 either, to a large extent, they've simply been making vehicles their customers want to buy (SUV's, Pickups etc) and giving them the features that the customers demand (More comfort, more gadgets and more power...fuel economy be damned). Unfortunately, the overall market demand has shifted much quicker than their ability to re-tool to meet that change in what customers demand. (It's no easy thing to switch over an assembly plant to make little cars vs. big trucks). |
Actually, they created the demand for SUVs with their marketing and advertising campaigns. There's some French guy who created a whole advertising strategy based on making SUVs as big and ugly as possible, manipulating the subconscious desires of middle america. I know it sounds like I'm making this up, but it's true. And it's infuriating.
And I'm not punishing the D3, nor do I have any blood lust. I don't want to do anything to them at all. Let them stand or fall on their own merits. |
Do you really think Americans are so stupid as to be led around by the nose that way?
I was exposed to all of the same marketing and advertising. I never bought an SUV, big truck or otherwise participated in vehicular excess? Ford advertised the heck out of the Edsel too. Didn't work to well. |
Do you really think car companies wait around to see what's popular and then build it? They aggressively pushed bigger and badder SUVs. There's no moral difference between them and the cigarette companies. |
They don't wait and see, they ask customers and build what the data tells them people want. They're called market surveys, focus groups, customer feedback etc. It's commonplace when doing any kind of product development.
I disagree about the cigarette companies too, there's a mile of difference.
For a start what is the utility in $20K worth of cigarettes versus the utility of a $20K vehicle?
Also, what physically addictive harmful substance is in cars that makes people need them or experience withdrawals? |
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11/20/2008 05:27:21 PM · #120 |
I just received an email from one of my Senators; Carl Levin and thought I'd share.
Originally posted by email:
Immediate support is needed to shore up our automotive manufacturing sector and to preserve the more than 2.5 million jobs directly and indirectly linked to the U.S. auto industry. This morning, I testified in front of the House Financial Services Committee to emphasize the need for Congress to take swift action on behalf of our nation’s automakers. Standing idly by as the financial crisis decimates our domestic manufacturing capabilities and pulls our fragile economy further into recession is unacceptable.
Throughout the world, the dire financial crisis continues to spur governments to provide assistance to their manufacturing industries, which are not able to obtain the credit they so vitally need to continue operations. Both Germany and the European Union are studying the possibility of providing support for their automotive industries. Australia has provided more than $4 billion in funding for its vehicle manufacturers. Automotive manufacturers in China are already voicing their expectation of financial assistance from their government as well. “The Chinese government will undoubtedly support us,” says She Cairong, general manager of JAC Motors, a Chinese automobile manufacturer. This quote appeared in a New York Times article this morning, highlighting China’s consideration of a plan to provide assistance to its domestic automobile companies.
The spotlight is now focused on Congress, which is considering the possibility of rescuing the industry from an economic downturn not of its own making. President-elect Obama has called the U.S. auto industry “the backbone of American manufacturing” and said that the failure of our domestic automakers would be “a disaster” for our economy. President Bush, Speaker Pelosi, and both the Majority and Minority Leaders of the Senate agree that bridge loans for our domestic automakers are necessary at this time. I will continue to work with my colleagues in the Senate and the Congressional Leadership to come up with a plan that would provide auto manufacturers with the bridge loans they need to weather this financial storm.
You can read the transcript of my testimony before the House Financial Services Committee by clicking on the following link: [ //levin.senate.gov/newsroom/release.cfm?id=305099 ]. During these difficult times, I am doing everything within my power to convince the Congress to provide the bridge loans for the domestic auto industry that the President, the President-elect and the leaders from both houses of Congress support.
Sincerely,
Carl Levin |
Message edited by author 2008-11-20 17:28:14. |
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11/20/2008 05:44:05 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Also, what physically addictive harmful substance is in cars that makes people need them or experience withdrawals? |
What's the opposite of lots of exercise? |
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11/20/2008 05:55:02 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I just received an email from one of my Senators; Carl Levin and thought I'd share.
Originally posted by email:
...“The Chinese government will undoubtedly support us,” says She Cairong, general manager of JAC Motors, a Chinese automobile manufacturer. |
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So  Jac's a photographer AND an automaker? Hmmmm, sneaky Canadian. :P |
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11/20/2008 05:56:59 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Also, what physically addictive harmful substance is in cars that makes people need them or experience withdrawals? |
What's the opposite of lots of exercise? |
And don't forget, lots of exercise can lead to endorphin addiction. ;) |
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11/20/2008 06:51:06 PM · #124 |
It seems that unless the incoming socialist/liberal government passes laws requiring all auto plants to join the UAW, the only sustainable survival strategy for the D3 is to reduce its production costs to that of the J3.
A bailout will only prolong the agony and cost disadvantage. If anyone has a suggestion on how the D3 can make such a cost cut without bankruptcy allowing the termination of the UAW contract, I would love to hear it. |
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11/20/2008 07:21:44 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
You can't totally place the blame on the D3 either, to a large extent, they've simply been making vehicles their customers want to buy (SUV's, Pickups etc) and giving them the features that the customers demand (More comfort, more gadgets and more power...fuel economy be damned). Unfortunately, the overall market demand has shifted much quicker than their ability to re-tool to meet that change in what customers demand. (It's no easy thing to switch over an assembly plant to make little cars vs. big trucks). |
Actually, they created the demand for SUVs with their marketing and advertising campaigns. There's some French guy who created a whole advertising strategy based on making SUVs as big and ugly as possible, manipulating the subconscious desires of middle america. I know it sounds like I'm making this up, but it's true. And it's infuriating.
And I'm not punishing the D3, nor do I have any blood lust. I don't want to do anything to them at all. Let them stand or fall on their own merits. |
Do you really think Americans are so stupid as to be led around by the nose that way? |
Yes, it's pretty well proven. Maybe it didn't affect you personally, but it would a statistically-known fragment sufficient to calculate whether a plan is economically viable. |
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