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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Have I broken a challenge rule?
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09/22/2008 07:45:44 PM · #1
I submitted a photo for one of the basic editing challenges, and have been asked to submit the original. One commenter said he thought the vignetting was illegal. I used only Lightroom 1 to edit the photo, adjusting saturation, contrast, levels, and increased the natural vignette in the "lens corrections" controls. This control will not work if there is no natural vignette coming from the lens, but you can certainly increase it using the tool. If I crop the image, I cannot simply create a vignette, it is ONLY an increase of whats naturally there. As it is a global change and no photoshop or spot work was done on the image, I assumed I was ok.
Have I broken the rules, do I get severely punished, have I been reported, or does it mean I actually stood a chance at a ribbon and its about to be taken away?
HELP!
09/22/2008 07:48:16 PM · #2
As far as my understanding goes you did violate the basic edit ruleset. The worst thing that will happen is a nasty pink bar on your profile page. Do it again though in 25 challenges or less and you will get suspended from entering for a week. Read the rule set descritpions and you will see how dqs work.
09/22/2008 07:50:53 PM · #3
Also, have you submitted the image for verification (I assume the email had instructions)? The best folks to contact about these issues are those who enforce the rules - site council! Use the Help -> Contact Us page.

Also, if you have questions about the rules, you can ask them before submitting, too.

Cheers!
-Jeff
09/22/2008 07:57:29 PM · #4
Originally posted by jettyimages:

I submitted a photo for one of the basic editing challenges, and have been asked to submit the original. One commenter said he thought the vignetting was illegal. I used only Lightroom 1 to edit the photo, adjusting saturation, contrast, levels, and increased the natural vignette in the "lens corrections" controls. This control will not work if there is no natural vignette coming from the lens, but you can certainly increase it using the tool. If I crop the image, I cannot simply create a vignette, it is ONLY an increase of whats naturally there. As it is a global change and no photoshop or spot work was done on the image, I assumed I was ok.
Have I broken the rules, do I get severely punished, have I been reported, or does it mean I actually stood a chance at a ribbon and its about to be taken away?
HELP!


Sorry, after reading your post, I can see where you might be confused by the wording of this rule:

From the rules:

You may not:
use ANY editing tool to create new image area, objects or features (such as vignettes, lens flare or motion) that didn’t already exist in your original capture.


The fact is that you may not apply a vignette, or even correct vignetting, in Basic (using a vignette tool). Vignetting does not constitute a global edit--it uses a mask to affect the outside of the image.

FWIW, the vignette tool in Lightroom will add a vignette to ANY image. But use of the tool is grounds for DQ whether or not there's a "natural vignette". (Of course, a natural vignette, caused by the lens or other optical effect is legal, as long as you don't enhance or reduce it in postprocessing.)

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 19:59:08.
09/22/2008 08:10:05 PM · #5

Originally posted by nshapiro:



FWIW, the vignette tool in Lightroom will add a vignette to ANY image. But use of the tool is grounds for DQ whether or not there's a "natural vignette". (Of course, a natural vignette, caused by the lens or other optical effect is legal, as long as you don't enhance or reduce it in postprocessing.)



Just to add to the confusion if you underexpose during RAW conversion you are adding to the vignette, would altering the exposure of an image be cause for DQ?
09/22/2008 08:20:23 PM · #6
Ok now I'm really confused...doh! If I could pull off a vignette in a shot and I was to use curves to darken the whole shot...naturally the vignette will get darker; this darkening would be called an enhancement and grounds for DQ in Basic?
09/22/2008 08:24:06 PM · #7
I would have thought just enhancing a vignette (not adding one) would be Ok if it was already present in the photo, so long as no spot editing was used.

By the way, at the risk of sounding stupid, what exactly is a vignette?
09/22/2008 08:24:34 PM · #8
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:


Originally posted by nshapiro:



FWIW, the vignette tool in Lightroom will add a vignette to ANY image. But use of the tool is grounds for DQ whether or not there's a "natural vignette". (Of course, a natural vignette, caused by the lens or other optical effect is legal, as long as you don't enhance or reduce it in postprocessing.)



Just to add to the confusion if you underexpose during RAW conversion you are adding to the vignette, would altering the exposure of an image be cause for DQ?


I'm pretty sure he meant enhancing it on its own using masking/layers/etc.
09/22/2008 08:24:52 PM · #9
Originally posted by awpollard:

Ok now I'm really confused...doh! If I could pull off a vignette in a shot and I was to use curves to darken the whole shot...naturally the vignette will get darker; this darkening would be called an enhancement and grounds for DQ in Basic?

No, a global exposure adjustment is fine in Basic and you wouldn't be creating a vignette.
09/22/2008 08:29:05 PM · #10
Well I'm glad you're all confused - so am I. nshapiro I'm not sure why you believe you can add a vignette to anything. I certainly can't, it depends entirely on the lens that I'm using, and whether there is any natural vignette. Try going to a vignette free image, or crop and image first, then import it into Lightroom, and you will find its not possible to add one. Unless of course you have Lightroom 2, which is a different ball game. I don't have that one yet - spending too much time on this site to get my act together there!
Lady Tara, I COMPLETELY agree with you. Spot editing is one thing, I haven't and wouldn't do that in a basic edit. But if LIghtroom 1 is ONLY capable of doing global changes, and if in the process you are allowed to correct your lens in terms of calibration or chromatic aberration, why can't you slightly increase the vignette that already exists?
I don't mind being DQ'd if I've deliberately done something, but seeing this is only my 3rd entry, I'm feeling pretty disappointed at getting into trouble so soon. I feel like a naughty school girl!
09/22/2008 08:34:28 PM · #11
'Oooohhh...don't mention the 'naughty school girl' scenario. :) ("I mean, I mean, I mean that was a joke son. You see?")

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 20:36:19.
09/22/2008 08:41:01 PM · #12
completely off the subject and rather than starting a new thread - can someone please explain what 'bump' means?
09/22/2008 08:41:49 PM · #13
Originally posted by jettyimages:

completely off the subject and rather than starting a new thread - can someone please explain what 'bump' means?


It means keeping the thread in on the front page/near the top of the "recently added to" list. ("bumping" it up from out of sight, to keep people interested in it.)

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 20:42:31.
09/22/2008 08:49:13 PM · #14
Originally posted by jettyimages:

I'm not sure why you believe you can add a vignette to anything. I certainly can't, it depends entirely on the lens that I'm using, and whether there is any natural vignette. Try going to a vignette free image, or crop and image first, then import it into Lightroom, and you will find its not possible to add one.

I'm pretty sure the tool in Lightroom 1.0 can be used to add or remove a vignette simply by darkening or lightening the corners... whether the image already had a vignette or not.
09/22/2008 08:51:15 PM · #15
Originally posted by jettyimages:

RE: selective desaturation: how do you achieve it?


Here is a tutorial that describes this...Selective Desaturation in Basic

Message edited by scalvert - Forum rule#2- Please do not discuss specific challenge entries or outtakes until voting has ended..
09/22/2008 08:53:52 PM · #16
Originally posted by scalvert:

Forum rule #2: Please do not discuss specific challenge entries or outtakes until voting has ended. That IS breaking the rules.


I'm not going to see how many open challenges have vignettes (someone else will lol) but does this thread talk about a specific image?
09/22/2008 08:54:47 PM · #17
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:

I'm not going to see how many open challenges have vignettes (someone else will lol) but does this thread talk about a specific image?

It described a specific entry in voting. That's a no-no.

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 20:55:03.
09/22/2008 08:54:56 PM · #18
Originally posted by jettyimages:

I don't mind being DQ'd if I've deliberately done something, but seeing this is only my 3rd entry, I'm feeling pretty disappointed at getting into trouble so soon. I feel like a naughty school girl!


Don't feel too bad. I got DQ'ed my first time out. I cropped the photo, and the software left a 1 pixel wide line, that I did not notice, down one side of the image. I was upset at the time, but it was all part of a learning process. Now, if only I could learn how to get a ribbon.
09/22/2008 08:56:03 PM · #19
Hee Hee! Having fun breaking all the rules today, Trish? :)
I understand the confusion - I'm so paranoid about DQ's, but none of my images have ever been good enough to be questioned!!

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 20:56:40.
09/22/2008 08:58:00 PM · #20
OUCH!!!! I seem to be breaking all the rules today. I guess I need to sit down and read ALL the rules before opening my big mouth...
Apologies to all, I'm going to leave the computer now and try to take some decent, legal, interesting, artistic photos without getting caught by the police in the process......3rd time today could be a winner!
09/22/2008 09:03:07 PM · #21
....or I could just get down on bended knee and beg for forgiveness!
The last time I got into so much trouble I was running across the grass outside the principal's office - and just like this, I had no idea I wasn't allowed to as I was new to the school. Please don't punish me, I really liked the photo but I've forgotten which one it was already, hopefully you all have too. Shouldn't you people up there on the top of this earth be asleep while I screw up anyway? Lonni, stop laughing, I can hear you from here...
09/22/2008 09:05:50 PM · #22
Originally posted by ambaker:

Originally posted by jettyimages:

I don't mind being DQ'd if I've deliberately done something, but seeing this is only my 3rd entry, I'm feeling pretty disappointed at getting into trouble so soon. I feel like a naughty school girl!


Don't feel too bad. I got DQ'ed my first time out. I cropped the photo, and the software left a 1 pixel wide line, that I did not notice, down one side of the image. I was upset at the time, but it was all part of a learning process. Now, if only I could learn how to get a ribbon.


You already have a ribbon: an invisible one. You thought about the award for extraordinary outreach. You are a winner already, Alex:-)
09/22/2008 09:10:05 PM · #23
Originally posted by jettyimages:

....or I could just get down on bended knee and beg for forgiveness!
The last time I got into so much trouble I was running across the grass outside the principal's office - and just like this, I had no idea I wasn't allowed to as I was new to the school. Please don't punish me, I really liked the photo but I've forgotten which one it was already, hopefully you all have too. Shouldn't you people up there on the top of this earth be asleep while I screw up anyway? Lonni, stop laughing, I can hear you from here...


Tee Hee Tee Hee!
I know exactly how you feel - I got sent out in year 4 for not putting my scissors down (I was daydreaming when she told me to). Scarred me for life!!
09/22/2008 10:07:10 PM · #24
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:

Just to add to the confusion if you underexpose during RAW conversion you are adding to the vignette, would altering the exposure of an image be cause for DQ?


To draaaag this back on topic, can the SC please verify I have this straight?

The point is not whether you're darkening the corners, but rather how you did it. A general point about basic rules is they're about tools, not end results. Whereas the advanced rules are often more about the end result, regardless of the tool.

- vignette tool: it selectively affects the corners, so not allowed in basic. Even if the corners were already darker, you're not affecting other dark areas in the image.
- curves, levels: affect all pixels of same brightness in the same way, so legal in basic. You're not choosing a specific area of the image to darken, you're darkening everything that's already dark, in the corners or not.
- underexposing when converting from RAW: you're darkening everything, so legal in basic.
09/22/2008 10:20:23 PM · #25
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by awpollard:

Ok now I'm really confused...doh! If I could pull off a vignette in a shot and I was to use curves to darken the whole shot...naturally the vignette will get darker; this darkening would be called an enhancement and grounds for DQ in Basic?

No, a global exposure adjustment is fine in Basic and you wouldn't be creating a vignette.


Agreed. Not to worry, awpollard
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