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09/22/2008 08:50:47 AM · #26
Yeah, you're gonna like it here. Welcome aboard smiley face Steve!!
09/22/2008 09:02:34 AM · #27
Originally posted by stevewlk:

I clearly didn't realize the severity/structure of the voting process like I had mentioned above, I apologize again for the 1's, didn't mean to offend anyone. Like I have stated on my profile, I won't baby your picture and I expect the same those who critique my photos. I'm growing as a photographer/designer and want only what will make me stronger at what I do. I appreciate honesty from others and most people do as well. Really looking forward to submit to the challenges as I haven't attempted anything of this sort before, looks to be like a lot of fun. Also making new friends/photographers globally is something I look forward to also. Thanks for the welcomes and happy shooting.


Welcome aboard Steve, this is a great site with a good family unity, and some excellent photographers, good critical comments are a learning curve for all in the art form, keep in the spirit and have fun.
09/22/2008 09:05:54 AM · #28
Originally posted by stevewlk:

I clearly didn't realize the severity/structure of the voting process like I had mentioned above, I apologize again for the 1's, didn't mean to offend anyone. Like I have stated on my profile, I won't baby your picture and I expect the same those who critique my photos. I'm growing as a photographer/designer and want only what will make me stronger at what I do. I appreciate honesty from others and most people do as well. Really looking forward to submit to the challenges as I haven't attempted anything of this sort before, looks to be like a lot of fun. Also making new friends/photographers globally is something I look forward to also. Thanks for the welcomes and happy shooting.


Steve, obviously how you vote is entirely up to you at the end of the day you pay your money and you have the right to your own opinion, when I started voting I found my structure was a bit harsh and also a bit unfair if I'm honest, so I adopted someone elses method I found on the profile page and have altered it slightly and it's structured like this:

Meets Challenge: (0-1)
0 for not meeting challenge
1 for meeting challenge

Composition (0-2)
0 Poor composition
1 Okay but could be better
2 Great composition

Technical / PP work (0-3)
0 Completely lacking (Snap shot shot with poor WB / lighting and overly grainy for example)
1 Lacking in some of the main areas (sharpness, cloning of artifacts, saturation) but has obviously had some work and effort applied
2 Same as above but almost nailed it
3 About as good as it gets

Creativity (0-2)
0 Appears to have none (snap shot)
1 Some creativity but could have gone further
2 Awesome really well thought out shot

WOW factor (0-2)
0 Ordinary (Again snap shot comes to mind)
1 I like it but it just needs something more
2 Wow! stands out in the crowd

Excuse the way I have documented these its been done quickly (I'm really busy - or meant to be lol) I just have the categories and the points for each on my sheet of paper I use when scoring :)

I have no idea if this will be of use to you (or anyone else) but I know it's helped me be a lot more consistent in my voting (of which I need to do a lot more, now if only there were 36 hours in a day).

ETA: I find this helps me look at a picture in more detail and also gives me lots to comment on if I am going to score an entry low.

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 09:07:14.
09/22/2008 09:11:09 AM · #29
A good structure Mark, those who are uncertain as to how to vote would absolutely be able to use that as a standard for their voting.
09/22/2008 09:11:42 AM · #30
DPCer rox_rox has a great tongue in cheek beginner's guide to DPC on her profile page. You might enjoy reading that, and know more about how the site works.
eta, Welcome to DPC.

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 09:12:34.
09/22/2008 09:21:31 AM · #31
Not that it has not already been said, but is appreciated when a low vote is accompanied by a constructive comment to say why it was low voted. We all prefer our "masterpieces" to score high, but when they don't at least it's nice to know what the voter disliked. I normally vote 20-30% of most challenges, but I leave comments on a high percentage of them. If it helps, here is my own voting methodology:

1-totally sucks, blurry grainy, unidentifiable. I don't think I've ever given a 1

2- brown ribbon for sure. Grainy, blurry, lots of artifacts, shadows and blown highlights. lousy snapshot

3- The average snapshot someone takes if they don't know anything about photography. Or an entry from Whiterook (He's awesome, BTW. Has quite a fan base here.)

4- basic exposure and composition is good and shows effort and some knowledge. A decent effort, but lacking somehow compared to other DPC stuff.

5- A good shot, but nothing that stands out over the rest. No shame in getting a 5. Something that averages in the high 5's will probably get wowed over elsewhere.

6- Something stands out to me about this one. Really liking it.

7- Really good stuff.

8- Getting into "WOW" territory. 50% chance I will fave this.

9- How to you do it? Do you have a life outside photography?

10- I am in awe.

Other factors:
-If I feel the entry does not meet the challenge topic (a.k.a. a "shoehorn" entry) I will rate it on the quality of the shot, but then deduct 1-3 points depending on how far off base I think it is. If I am the only one that feels that way, then my slightly lower vote won't hurt it much.

-Sometimes an extra point for an outstandingly creative idea, but an average shot.

-I often give a lower vote for visible compression artifacts that could have been easily avoided. If there are visible artifacts and a small file size, I will ding you. I have often low voted high scoring images for this when everyone else wows over it. If I ding you on this, I will leave a comment about it, so that you know why it got that low vote from me.

-Although personal taste is part of the process, I try to rate on the quality of the photo. If I don't personally care for it, but still think it is good work, I won't low vote it.

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 09:21:58.
09/22/2008 09:25:44 AM · #32
I get a lot of 5s and 4s from Steve ( yospiff) and I still think he's a cool guy. :-)
09/22/2008 09:34:18 AM · #33
Originally posted by Melethia:

I get a lot of 5s and 4s from Steve ( yospiff) and I still think he's a cool guy. :-)


I'm certain I get my share of them from you as well! (Why am I reminded of the song "I'm so much cooler online"?)
09/22/2008 10:16:01 AM · #34
I think the guy should vote and comment any way he chooses. Not trying to change his ways but only out of curiousity, I like this image

I probably would give it between a 6 or a 7 and a comment about the interesting technique. I wonder how Steve would objectively score this image were it not his own.

Welcome to the site, Steve, you'll have fun here.
09/22/2008 11:23:27 AM · #35
Originally posted by senor_kasper:

I think the guy should vote and comment any way he chooses.


Agreed, if he truly feels the average image here is worth under a 3 by his personal scale, then he should vote that way. It's just a courtesy to let someone know why you are voting that low. I know hter are some other members who tend to have extremely high standards and have a low voting average.
09/22/2008 12:06:11 PM · #36
Steve,
Welcome to DPC!

You can vote how you wish, as long as you are making an honest evaluation based on your own criteria. There have been several threads on voting styles over the years with discussions on various criteria. I don't mind receiving a 1 if the voter truly thinks my photo has no redeeming qualities. I would usually disagree, but art is subjective.

I am curious as to why you consider the majority of the images you have voted on to be extremely poor. I am asking this seriously, and I don't think it matters whether you have entered a challenge or not, or whether you are a good photographer. I believe opinions are independent of skill or experience.

09/22/2008 12:08:10 PM · #37
Originally posted by Melethia:

I get a lot of 5s and 4s from Steve ( yospiff) and I still think he's a cool guy. :-)


How do you know what score he gives you?
09/22/2008 12:12:06 PM · #38
Originally posted by chaimelle:

Originally posted by Melethia:

I get a lot of 5s and 4s from Steve ( yospiff) and I still think he's a cool guy. :-)


How do you know what score he gives you?


She probably uses one of these spreadsheets, and because I often leave comments, she can tell what score has accompanied the comment.
09/22/2008 12:22:39 PM · #39
Originally posted by yospiff:

Originally posted by chaimelle:

Originally posted by Melethia:

I get a lot of 5s and 4s from Steve ( yospiff) and I still think he's a cool guy. :-)


How do you know what score he gives you?


She probably uses one of these spreadsheets, and because I often leave comments, she can tell what score has accompanied the comment.


wow have we digressed from the OP? lol..

So question about knowing scores...do you think it is bad letting the person know what you gave them? I never considered it an issue but am now wondering. This is the way I do it and if you just add the numbers up you get your score.

Fits challenge=0
Color/lighting=0
DOF/focus=0
Wow factor/uniqueness=0
Attractiveness=0
comments

How it works...if you meet the challenge criteria without a shadow of a doubt you get an instant 5, if it seems like you were actually attempting to meet the challenge but failed you score will go down depending on how bad you missed (or I can't make the connnection). The other topics get either a 1 or a 0 depending on how well you performed this area. For images that are extra special and I feel deserves a 10 I find the place I think you excelled the best and give another point.
09/22/2008 12:23:06 PM · #40
If you vote on ALL the images in the challenge then no one will be disproportionately affected by a "low voter" as everyone gets hit by them.
My Avg Vote Cast is only 3.8150 but when I vote, I vote on them all.
On the dolls/puppets I gave out 46 votes of 5 or more.
Which works out to almost 50% of the entries.
I gave no 9s or 10s.
No 1s, eight 2s and a lot of 3s and 4s.
09/22/2008 12:32:36 PM · #41
Originally posted by rswank:

If you vote on ALL the images in the challenge then no one will be disproportionately affected by a "low voter" as everyone gets hit by them.
My Avg Vote Cast is only 3.8150 but when I vote, I vote on them all.
On the dolls/puppets I gave out 46 votes of 5 or more.
Which works out to almost 50% of the entries.
I gave no 9s or 10s.
No 1s, eight 2s and a lot of 3s and 4s.


I personally have no problem whatsoever with anyones specific voting style - including the handing out of low scores. As you stated above, you are equitable and take voting seriously. Kudos to you and all others who vote by specific and reproducible criteria.

The bit that may be getting on some DPCers nerves a bit is comments like "=]" with a vote of 1 or 2. The photog stevewlk who stated that he has been leaving these comments may have completely just and passionate opinions on why he votes this way. Kudos to him. However, he has expressly stated in his bio that he is a strong critic, yet we have yet to see anything substantial beyond the smiley face. Lets see some of that great critical feedback so we can all improve here...

09/22/2008 12:32:46 PM · #42
Originally posted by chaimelle:

Originally posted by Melethia:

I get a lot of 5s and 4s from Steve ( yospiff) and I still think he's a cool guy. :-)


How do you know what score he gives you?

Nah, no fancy spreadsheets for me and I spend most of my time with my scores off. I base my assessment on a) he tells me what he voted when he gives me comments after a challenge, and b) an interpretation of his comments after a challenge based on the criteria he listed if he doesn't tell me the score. In other words, he tells me when he gives me a 5; I interpret when he's given me a 4. :-)
09/22/2008 12:34:53 PM · #43
Originally posted by Melethia:

In other words, he tells me when he gives me a 5; I interpret when he's given me a 4. :-)


Now you've got me feeling like a troll...
09/22/2008 12:37:00 PM · #44
LOL!! Nah, not at all. We both know I submit stuff that is way too freakin' busy and often tangential (and many times just not all that good.) You vote with respect to DPC. Though you will have to admit there are times you'd deduct from your own shot for shoehorning.... :-P
09/22/2008 12:39:23 PM · #45
Originally posted by yospiff:

Originally posted by Melethia:

In other words, he tells me when he gives me a 5; I interpret when he's given me a 4. :-)


Now you've got me feeling like a troll...


Now get back under your bridge! :D

Thanks to the previous posters for posting their voting criteria. Its a big help for a new member like myself that's trying to be fair in voting.
09/22/2008 02:45:05 PM · #46
Originally posted by stevewlk:

I clearly didn't realize the severity/structure of the voting process like I had mentioned above, I apologize again for the 1's, didn't mean to offend anyone. Like I have stated on my profile, I won't baby your picture and I expect the same those who critique my photos. I'm growing as a photographer/designer and want only what will make me stronger at what I do. I appreciate honesty from others and most people do as well. Really looking forward to submit to the challenges as I haven't attempted anything of this sort before, looks to be like a lot of fun. Also making new friends/photographers globally is something I look forward to also. Thanks for the welcomes and happy shooting.


Hey dont take it too hard.. When I joined about a month ago, I was doing the same. I must say DPC is a great community..I feel welcome almost everyday. And personally I have improved my own photography skills a lot.. and there is still lots to go. Usually it takes some time to get used to the voting style on DPC.. and also remember you are free to vote as you like, just try to be fair. So like melethia and others said, if you vote low on some images, it would be nice if there are some that get a high score too to balance it out. Think of it as rating the best picture a 10, and the worst (in your taste) a 1 or 2... and the rest will bein between.

Happy imaging =]

Message edited by author 2008-09-22 14:45:59.
09/22/2008 02:52:37 PM · #47
Originally posted by Mark-A:

Originally posted by stevewlk:

I clearly didn't realize the severity/structure of the voting process like I had mentioned above, I apologize again for the 1's, didn't mean to offend anyone. Like I have stated on my profile, I won't baby your picture and I expect the same those who critique my photos. I'm growing as a photographer/designer and want only what will make me stronger at what I do. I appreciate honesty from others and most people do as well. Really looking forward to submit to the challenges as I haven't attempted anything of this sort before, looks to be like a lot of fun. Also making new friends/photographers globally is something I look forward to also. Thanks for the welcomes and happy shooting.


Steve, obviously how you vote is entirely up to you at the end of the day you pay your money and you have the right to your own opinion, when I started voting I found my structure was a bit harsh and also a bit unfair if I'm honest, so I adopted someone elses method I found on the profile page and have altered it slightly and it's structured like this:

Meets Challenge: (0-1)
0 for not meeting challenge
1 for meeting challenge

Composition (0-2)
0 Poor composition
1 Okay but could be better
2 Great composition

Technical / PP work (0-3)
0 Completely lacking (Snap shot shot with poor WB / lighting and overly grainy for example)
1 Lacking in some of the main areas (sharpness, cloning of artifacts, saturation) but has obviously had some work and effort applied
2 Same as above but almost nailed it
3 About as good as it gets

Creativity (0-2)
0 Appears to have none (snap shot)
1 Some creativity but could have gone further
2 Awesome really well thought out shot

WOW factor (0-2)
0 Ordinary (Again snap shot comes to mind)
1 I like it but it just needs something more
2 Wow! stands out in the crowd

Excuse the way I have documented these its been done quickly (I'm really busy - or meant to be lol) I just have the categories and the points for each on my sheet of paper I use when scoring :)

I have no idea if this will be of use to you (or anyone else) but I know it's helped me be a lot more consistent in my voting (of which I need to do a lot more, now if only there were 36 hours in a day).

ETA: I find this helps me look at a picture in more detail and also gives me lots to comment on if I am going to score an entry low.


Great style there Mark, thanks for sharing!!

I agree with it 99%. The 1% I would change here is the weightage for the DNMC part. I think that if an image doesnt fit a challenge, then even if it is a great technical shot, it shouldnt compete with the other slightly low in technique pictures that meet the challenge. It just doesnt seem fair to me IMHO ;-)

09/22/2008 03:26:09 PM · #48
Originally posted by Prash:

Great style there Mark, thanks for sharing!!

I agree with it 99%. The 1% I would change here is the weightage for the DNMC part. I think that if an image doesnt fit a challenge, then even if it is a great technical shot, it shouldnt compete with the other slightly low in technique pictures that meet the challenge. It just doesnt seem fair to me IMHO ;-)


Ooh!!!

Actually I forgot to add to that list that if an image is DNMC then its final score from the other 4 criteria would be halved, thanks Prash I totally forgot about that.
09/22/2008 04:44:12 PM · #49
Warning: ahead.

Originally posted by Mark-A:

Actually I forgot to add to that list that if an image is DNMC then its final score from the other 4 criteria would be halved, thanks Prash I totally forgot about that.


My own issue with this method is that it can overly penalize something that does fit the challenge, and was just over the voter's head. For instance, judging from those that commented, many of us got slammed with lots of DNMC votes in the "warm colors" challenge by voters who took the theme to be "convey warmth" rather than simply to utilize primarily warm colors. My "road less traveled" entry was a metaphor that I knew would not be understood by many and the comments/votes showed that.

If I deduct a point or two for DNMC, I don't penalize someone too badly for relevance that was over my head. If everyone else feels the same, then the final score will reflect that it did not meet the challenge. On the other hand, there have been times when something was obviously shoehorned and the photographer admits it in their notes after the challenge.

A shoehorned entry:
09/22/2008 04:47:06 PM · #50


Meets Challenge: (0-1)
0 for not meeting challenge
1 for meeting challenge

Composition (0-2)
0 Poor composition
1 Okay but could be better
2 Great composition

Technical / PP work (0-3)
0 Completely lacking (Snap shot shot with poor WB / lighting and overly grainy for example)
1 Lacking in some of the main areas (sharpness, cloning of artifacts, saturation) but has obviously had some work and effort applied
2 Same as above but almost nailed it
3 About as good as it gets

Creativity (0-2)
0 Appears to have none (snap shot)
1 Some creativity but could have gone further
2 Awesome really well thought out shot

WOW factor (0-2)
0 Ordinary (Again snap shot comes to mind)
1 I like it but it just needs something more
2 Wow! stands out in the crowd

Excuse the way I have documented these its been done quickly (I'm really busy - or meant to be lol) I just have the categories and the points for each on my sheet of paper I use when scoring :)

I have no idea if this will be of use to you (or anyone else) but I know it's helped me be a lot more consistent in my voting (of which I need to do a lot more, now if only there were 36 hours in a day).

ETA: I find this helps me look at a picture in more detail and also gives me lots to comment on if I am going to score an entry low. [/quote]

Very helpfull, thank you.
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