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09/19/2008 11:09:13 PM · #1 |
Hello all, I'll start with a little background.
We are, among other things, a family of professional actors, and our youngest, Isaac  just landed a lead roll in a new children's television series due out in September of 2009. When we were doing wardrobe for the show I was taking shots of Isaac in his cloths for our personal photo journal that we keep for each of us for everything we do. Along comes the head person in charge of the entire production to talk to Isaac and myself and to introduce us to the US casting director (the show is Canadian and is sold all through Canada, the States, and Australia) we chat and as Isaac finishes up with wardrobe I start to pack up my gear and he asks me if I'm a professional photographer. I say no, but I'm very serious about photography and have kept a photo journal for everything that we do as a family in this business. He agreed that it was very important to document your career whenever possible and started to ask me questions about my gear, saying that "I must do more then document things for just us".
We had a conversation about all the jobs I've done from head shots, still photography for stage and theatre, promotional photos for a few bands, the last two years of the Mariposa Folk Festival, a 50th anniversary for a school, engagement and wedding photos and lots more. we also talked about my friend Sean who will be filming three movies and he wants me to do the stills for him when he starts.
After a stink load more questions he looks up and asked me if I wanted to do all the still photography for the series. Now I'm not sure what or if he said anything after that nor am I sure how much time passed if any, before I answered him, but I do remember saying "Yes, yes I would, I'm sure we can work something out". So like many things in our lives that happen to us and we feel like "this can't be really happening to me, can it"? I packed up my gear and said I would be in touch soon and Isaac and I went on our merry way.
That was last Thursday and when we left wardrobe I had to get Isaac to another audition for a movie (we found out yesterday he got the part) and didn't really give it much thought until we got home and I told my wife the great news, to which she replied "he wasn't serious, was he"? So that got me thinking about our lengthy conversation to try to figure out what really happened and every time I arrived in the same place, with the offer to do the stills, so I called him directly today and we talked about the photography and he wants me to send him a list of all the stuff I've done and some photos for the production crew to see (just as part of the process) and what my half day and full day rates are.
Here's where I need the help. I want to be fair, after all our son is one of the lead rolls and I will be there anyway, for most every shoot day with him, but at the same time I don't want to cheapen the actual job or make it seem like I'm undercutting other photographers in order to take work away from anyone that does this in the industry for a living. I'm confident that I can do this and that they will be happy with the finished product. I do feel that I have enough experience to do this job and I can back it up with letters of satisfaction from other big jobs I have photographed.
Now it would seem pretty obvious to some, what I should do, just give them my regular half rate and day rate and just let things unfold, but Isaac is signed on for two years and has an option for three more and I know through others in this industry that he will work with people he like for a long time and he told me he likes me and looks forward to working with me. I know how many shoot days there are and there are lots so, should I give them a break on the rates or should I just post my rates and let things unfold. I don't want to appear greedy but I also don't want to loose the job to someone else, so I could really use some advise with this.
Anyone in the industry and of course anyone who would like to help out with some advice is welcome to leave some, I would love to have the help.
Sorry for the long post, thank you all.
MAX! |
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09/20/2008 12:22:52 AM · #2 |
| No advice for you but sounds like a nice opportunity! Good luck and let us know how it pans out. |
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09/20/2008 12:25:35 AM · #3 |
I would just post my regular rates. Funny, but if it were me, I know that I would feel terrible if I raised my normal rates just because I knew I had the job and would make a lot off it. I would also feel bad if I undercut my normal rates because I would know that I was not being paid what I could make elsewhere and would end up resenting the job in the end.
You have a huge heart and are a good person. I know you will do what you feel is right. Keep us up to date on how things go. I wish you the best of luck. |
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09/20/2008 04:51:41 AM · #4 |
Suggest regular day rates, possibly a rolling contract negotiable per season/series/annum...
Congratulations |
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09/20/2008 06:41:03 AM · #5 |
Thank you everyone for your advice so far and I'll keep you all posted.
Anyone else??
MAX! |
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09/20/2008 07:08:21 AM · #6 |
Oh Max, I am so proud of you, as that is just awesome news, and I do hope it all goes as planned. Also congratulations to Issac, for also getting the part in the series. You must be so very proud.
I am just so excited for you all, and send you all our love, from shez and pete. |
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09/20/2008 07:41:58 AM · #7 |
Max, I have no concrete advice to offer, but I would like to offer my congratulations to both you and Isaac! AWESOME news all around!
As for pricing, can you find out what other professionals charge for their services for something like that? As you wish to be fair, you might also talk to the person that asked you to do the job in the first place - let him know what your rates are (as you currently know them) then ask what would be fair and reasonable for a long contract. And again, congratulations!! |
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09/20/2008 07:47:21 AM · #8 |
I wish I had advice, but I have only a huge congratulations to both of you!!! (Have you asked him what the going rate is? He may give you a fair price)
Message edited by author 2008-09-20 07:47:54. |
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09/20/2008 08:35:45 AM · #9 |
Max, what a great event for your family and congratulations to you all.
With all the Challenges that come our way throughout life, we are not always able to go ahead with all of them, in this case as it is so close to your heart my motto is "if it feels good go with it" this has helped me make many decisions both business and personal.
I am sure between you and Sean you will be able to come to an amicable solution that will fulfill both your needs.
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09/20/2008 08:55:21 AM · #10 |
| I can't offer any advice, but I will offer a great big congratulations to both of you!! |
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09/20/2008 09:24:12 AM · #11 |
Wow, what a cool opportunity. I don't know if the photographers there have a union, most of the people in Hollywood do. If they do, just ask for union scale. If they don't, let them know that you will work for the average going rate.
If it is more than what you get now, so what? If they are hiring you for your abilities, which it sure sounds like they are, then it is no crime to move up in pay. People move to better paying jobs every day. If you are doing the job of one of their still photographers, then you should get paid that way.
If it is less than what you get now, then you would have a decision to make. I would would have qualms about getting paid more than the other people who hold a job because of my relationship to the project or people in the project. But I have no qualms about getting paid the same as everyone else.
Lots of people have gotten jobs opportunities because of contacts. Some surveys say that most people do get jobs through networking. You fell into a lucky opportunity. It wasn't like you went to them and tried to capitalize on your son't participation. Enjoy the ride, and post us some photos now and then.
ETA to correct spelling...
Message edited by author 2008-09-20 09:25:32. |
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09/20/2008 09:31:25 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
I would just post my regular rates. Funny, but if it were me, I know that I would feel terrible if I raised my normal rates just because I knew I had the job and would make a lot off it. I would also feel bad if I undercut my normal rates because I would know that I was not being paid what I could make elsewhere and would end up resenting the job in the end.
You have a huge heart and are a good person. I know you will do what you feel is right. Keep us up to date on how things go. I wish you the best of luck. |
This is what I feel about this also. I would ask what he thinks is a fair rate, but would do that after finding out what the going rate is in that field of photography. That way you will know if the offer is fair, or if he is trying to get you at a low price because you may not know what the normal rate for the job is.
Maybe there are some DPC'ers who will see this thread that know the answer.
That's great news though. Thanks for sharing. I hope that it works out for all of you.
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09/20/2008 09:32:45 AM · #13 |
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09/20/2008 09:43:46 AM · #14 |
sounds like a great time to jump into something
esp when it's offered !
good luck.. |
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09/20/2008 10:03:07 AM · #15 |
Don't be shy about your rate. It's not like it's coming out of his pocket.
Whenever you're dealing with companies remember that they have budgets allocated for projects like this. And they'll have estimated in advance how much things like this will cost.
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09/20/2008 12:31:56 PM · #16 |
wow what an opportunity. Only advice I could have is maybe contact  Man_Called_Horse, if I remember correctly he works in the tv industry and might have some insight or at least a point of contact that he can ask. Good luck man. |
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09/20/2008 01:05:09 PM · #17 |
| Congrats to your family Max! How exciting for you to watch your son's career develop at such an early age. Be sure to keep us updated on his show and where some may be able to see it :) |
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09/20/2008 01:27:47 PM · #18 |
I know very little about the movie and television business. My sister in law is a Production Assistant for Still Shoots in advertising (Ford, Subaru, Mercedes, PetSmart, KMart, pharmaceuticals, etc). I hear quite a bit from her as she is ALWAYS working even when she comes to visit. She gives me nice subtle nudges that I need to be doing more with my photography. My point...I would ask her something like this if it was presented to me.
Anyway, I would not give a reduced rate because you will be there anyway. If you had a role in the film, would you give a break because they had both of you? They have a budget and it would help to have an idea of what that budget is for your position. Do you have any idea what they normally spend on this? Do your best to find out. If your day rate is good enough for you and you really do want to get your foot in that door then go with that! Once you get in there, you can probably find out more about the budgeting side of things and you will know what to ask for next time!
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09/20/2008 02:10:12 PM · #19 |
No advice, just congratulations! How cool is that!
You'll do great! I do agree that you should not undercut your rate just because you will be there. They can pay you full normal rate or someone else, so take what you deserve. Now, if they want to pay you more than what you normally charge, setup a new savings account for the overage and buy more toys!! :P Most of all...HAVE FUN! Again, congrats! |
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09/20/2008 08:45:21 PM · #20 |
Hey Max! Glad to hear that the series got firmed up for Isaac. :) Great opportunity for you here... I agree with those that say do not undercut or overcharge compared to your regular rate.
What you charge for your photography is what you decided your time and equipment was worth. I don't think that ever becomes worth less. Yes it is a great opportunity for Isaac and you will be travelling with him to the locations when it is being shot, however consider that if he hires someone else to do the stills they wouldl be charging him for travel from one location to the other and for hotel etc etc. You will simply be charging your day rate because you are already there...so he is already getting a deal, imho.
Give me a should one of these evenings, we need to set up a shoot. :)
Ernie
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09/20/2008 10:13:16 PM · #21 |
Thank you everyone for your congratulations and for the advice, I have been trying to find out what the industry rates are and have had no luck at all, sabphoto suggestion to get in touch with Man_Called_Horse is a good one. He might have friends in the business in Canada and could get me some information.
Thank you again everyone, for everything.
MAX!
Oh and Ernie, I'll be in touch soon. Take care. |
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09/21/2008 01:22:37 AM · #22 |
OK...
Is this a Union show? if so, I do not know how you would be able to shoot the official stills for the show because that is usually a union position. BUT, if they are just still for the producer, or the production company, or for the some other non-PR function, I can see you with a nice job.
If it is a non-union show, go for it.
The rate? well, you negotiate as much money as you can get....period. I wouldn't undercut yourself AT ALL! I would get as much money from the producer as you can. Having your son get a part is a plus, but has nothing to do with the job offer for you.
I am not sure, but a UNION still photographer gets as much as a main unit camera operator, and I think that is $65 per hour with a guaranteed 8 hours, time and a half after 8 hours to 10 hours, double time after 10.
Gear, box rental, expendables, any vehicle used to transport equipment, and film rolls, or in your case gigabytes are all up for negotiation.
Also, do you need an assistant? this too is negotiable.
And finally, do you get right to use any images for your portfolio? This needs to be negotiated.
If I were you, I would approach this as a job opportunity, negotiate your rate, and ask for what you want. If you let producers push you around, they will know if you are a pro or not, and THEY will get the better deal.
Producers jobs, especially a Unit Production Manager is to save money. There is a budget, so there is no unlimited money, just seasons to a shows life.
Like William Shatner say's on his PRICELINE commercials, "Don't be a mamby panzy, negotiate."
One last thing, if this is a job to shoot stills for the company, and you are on set, you might want to consider buying a 'blimp'. If you start snapping away on set, you will quickly get to know the sound mixer. He will not be happy having to hear the mechanism of the camera engaging during a shoot.
Just some thoughts.
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09/21/2008 08:55:48 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:
OK...
Is this a Union show? if so, I do not know how you would be able to shoot the official stills for the show because that is usually a union position. BUT, if they are just still for the producer, or the production company, or for the some other non-PR function, I can see you with a nice job.
If it is a non-union show, go for it.
The rate? well, you negotiate as much money as you can get....period. I wouldn't undercut yourself AT ALL! I would get as much money from the producer as you can. Having your son get a part is a plus, but has nothing to do with the job offer for you.
I am not sure, but a UNION still photographer gets as much as a main unit camera operator, and I think that is $65 per hour with a guaranteed 8 hours, time and a half after 8 hours to 10 hours, double time after 10.
Gear, box rental, expendables, any vehicle used to transport equipment, and film rolls, or in your case gigabytes are all up for negotiation.
Also, do you need an assistant? this too is negotiable.
And finally, do you get right to use any images for your portfolio? This needs to be negotiated.
If I were you, I would approach this as a job opportunity, negotiate your rate, and ask for what you want. If you let producers push you around, they will know if you are a pro or not, and THEY will get the better deal.
Producers jobs, especially a Unit Production Manager is to save money. There is a budget, so there is no unlimited money, just seasons to a shows life.
Like William Shatner say's on his PRICELINE commercials, "Don't be a mamby panzy, negotiate."
One last thing, if this is a job to shoot stills for the company, and you are on set, you might want to consider buying a 'blimp'. If you start snapping away on set, you will quickly get to know the sound mixer. He will not be happy having to hear the mechanism of the camera engaging during a shoot.
Just some thoughts. |
Thomas, Thank you for your thoughts. It is a union shoot and because of that I had my agent check out any possible problems with me being on set doing this project, and she came back to me saying everything was fine for me to do the photography. Does this mean there are different rules for us here in Canada that govern photography on set, or is it OK for me because I'm in the union as an actor?
Whatever the case, I guess at this point the only thing left to do is negotiate rates and of course the use of the shots for my portfolio :)
Thank you
MAX! |
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09/21/2008 09:39:29 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by Quigley:
Thomas, Thank you for your thoughts. It is a union shoot and because of that I had my agent check out any possible problems with me being on set doing this project, and she came back to me saying everything was fine for me to do the photography. Does this mean there are different rules for us here in Canada that govern photography on set, or is it OK for me because I'm in the union as an actor?
Whatever the case, I guess at this point the only thing left to do is negotiate rates and of course the use of the shots for my portfolio :)
Thank you
MAX! |
SAG or AFTRA is different than IATSE.
I think what you need to find out is the capacity of your work for the producer. What is it exactly he wants from you. Are your strictly behind the scenes? or do you show up during certain scenes in the script to shoot only actors for the company's PR machine.
I also would have your agent, if she hasn't already, call the IATSE camera local. Here in the states it is Local 600. Make damn sure, again, that you are not going to step on any ones toes. The last thing you want is the business agent of a local contacting your business agent and grieving you or the production.
And as governing rules, I am not an expert, but to me it seems that the rules applied are universal when talking about the union. I have been in three different locals in my career, in two different states and they were the same.
Buy a blimp, it will automatically tell the crew that you are a professional.
Buy some fast lens, and my last bit of advice, where ever the main unit production camera is looking during a scene, you to should be there looking as well.
Max, I truly wish you good luck on this venture.
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09/24/2008 12:46:13 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by Quigley:
Whatever the case, I guess at this point the only thing left to do is negotiate rates and of course the use of the shots for my portfolio :)
Thank you
MAX! |
And don't forget to hire me as an assistant!!! lmao
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