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08/30/2008 07:46:46 AM · #1
Originally posted in the abstract challenge thread...

Ya know, I usually keep my mouth shut about this as it comes up in almost every voting thread I've ever seen, but this is the worst I've seen in a long time....

As Escapetooz said, whether you think so or not, abstract does have a definition. When I voted on this challenge I voted on 161 images. The others I either knew the owner from my DPCO team, or did not feel were abstract. I plan to go back through the rest and view again as this was a huge challenge, and i would like to give them a second look. Now rather than dump a bunch of low votes on things that i felt obviously aren't abstract, and leave a bunch of dnmc comments, I would rather just not vote on them at all and let the masses sort it out.

But here's the bigger issue. "Art," is subjective, whether you like it or not. Some people are going to like your work, and some people won't. That goes for DPC, a gallery, a magazine, or a church ceiling. It kinda gets my dander up when people get low votes and blame it on DPC. That's a cop out. If you get an average of 150-200 votes on an image, coming from people all over the world, from different experience levels and backgrounds, I would say that's a pretty good relative sample. And to be honest, this is probably a tougher crowd than most.

If all you want is praise, I'm sure your family and friends will tell you how amazing your work is all day long. Hell, my friends all think I'm Mr. amazing photographer guy, with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. I know the truth. I'm barely an amateur, struggling to learn and keep up.

If you are a niche, photographer, with a niche style, and niche work, you probably won't have mass appeal here. It's a challenge oriented site, which means you have to shoot a wide variety of topics, and all of them well. Doesn't mean that you won't be a successful and respected artist, but realize what you want to do, do it to the best of your ability, and let the chips fall where they may. That's art.

But blaming it all on the ignorant masses here that voted your shot low isn't really going to get you anywhere...right. And continually calling out IRENEM for having great success here is even worse, and makes you look silly. She DOES have style, and IS a bit of a niche photographer, and she has found a way to make her shots have HUGE MASS APPEAL. To me, that means that she has accomplished the ultimate goal! (and to be quite honest, if I had half of her skill I would be completely content with myself as a photographer.)

Nobody forces anyone to be here, and a good deal of us pay for the privilege. If you hate it that much why be here, continually subjecting yourself to idiots like us?
08/30/2008 08:16:32 AM · #2
Well said. Realising that criticism is an opportunity to learn/grow is one of life's great lessons. Won't stop me hanging my head in shame (in the forums even) over my Abstract B & W entry though :)
08/30/2008 08:18:15 AM · #3
Nicely put. I won't say anything more except that in March 09 I will be taking a long look at the situation and if the crying, whining, calling out of voters, calling members trolls, complaining about crappy images, and complaining about DPC and its trolls who vote images low ( I wonder why ), and if nothing changes I will become a non-paying user. I'm sick and tired of seeing people calling paid members trolls. It shows an immaturity I was not expecting on this site and it is getting worse by the day! I won't mind as much being called a troll if I'm not a paying member.
08/30/2008 08:23:10 AM · #4
Me either! My "doors" entry performed VERY poorly. I knew that it would. I thought it was interesting, so I figured I would take my lumps. I've also had shots like "still life" that I really thought would rock everyone's world, and turns out it only rocked mine. I still liked the shot, and I thoroughly enjoyed working on it. I still felt let down that it did poorly, and secretly hated on the voters.

My problem is you can't hate the voters and call out what a bunch of idiots they are one week, then thank them for scoring your next picture so high. It just gets on my nerves! :-)
08/30/2008 08:25:38 AM · #5
Originally posted by Jaker:

Me either! My "doors" entry performed VERY poorly. I knew that it would. I thought it was interesting, so I figured I would take my lumps. I've also had shots like "still life" that I really thought would rock everyone's world, and turns out it only rocked mine. I still liked the shot, and I thoroughly enjoyed working on it. I still felt let down that it did poorly, and secretly hated on the voters.

My problem is you can't hate the voters and call out what a bunch of idiots they are one week, then thank them for scoring your next picture so high. It just gets on my nerves! :-)


I admit I am guilty for doing just that. Thankyou for bringing it to my attention.
08/30/2008 08:28:57 AM · #6
I think we all do it from time to time, because we all like what we shot, and wouldn't have entered it if we didn't. But that abstract thread was a bit out of control! lol
08/30/2008 08:30:54 AM · #7
Originally posted by Jac:

Nicely put. I won't say anything more except that in March 09 I will be taking a long look at the situation and if the crying, whining, calling out of voters, calling members trolls, complaining about crappy images, and complaining about DPC and its trolls who vote images low ( I wonder why ), and if nothing changes I will become a non-paying user. I'm sick and tired of seeing people calling paid members trolls. It shows an immaturity I was not expecting on this site and it is getting worse by the day! I won't mind as much being called a troll if I'm not a paying member.


I wouldn't take the troll calls so seriously Jac. It's just people trying to explain the difference between the score they thought they would get and the score they are actually getting. Photographers are very attached to the photographs they take, so sometimes, it's hard to look at our own work from a completely subjective point of view.
08/30/2008 08:32:28 AM · #8
I'm guilty too, but I normally refer to trolls in jest - I know that I get low votes when my image sucks :) I wouldn't get so worked up about it, it's just people coping with criticism in whatever way that works for them.
08/30/2008 08:55:51 AM · #9
I've done the same thing. I personally think that people in other parts of the world hate my shots, because they always seem to go down at night! And we all know Germans love David Hasselhoff, so what does there opinion on art mater! lol Most of us can tell the difference between jest and and serious anger though.

Message edited by author 2008-08-30 08:56:14.
08/30/2008 09:07:32 AM · #10
I was thinking about this a bit more as I was vacuming my carpets... (I know.)

I guess what chaps my hide about this growing trend, is that it implies that If my shot is scoring better than yours, it's also because voters are idiots and has nothing to do with my shot being good, because the voters are so obviously incompetent.

I've worked pretty hard at trying to figure out this skill of photography. I've been reading books, practicing, seeking out advice, etc. Consequently, I feel like I have improved, and my scores along with it. (except doors, and still life. Wait, and hot. lol Guess I have a long way to go!)

And you know what, my abstract seems to be doing pretty damn well also. So is that because I picked a good subject, shot it and edited it reasonably well, or just because the voters are idiots?
08/30/2008 09:20:55 AM · #11
Originally posted by Jaker:

I was thinking about this a bit more as I was vacuming my carpets... (I know.)

I guess what chaps my hide about this growing trend, is that it implies that If my shot is scoring better than yours, it's also because voters are idiots and has nothing to do with my shot being good, because the voters are so obviously incompetent.

I've worked pretty hard at trying to figure out this skill of photography. I've been reading books, practicing, seeking out advice, etc. Consequently, I feel like I have improved, and my scores along with it. (except doors, and still life. Wait, and hot. lol Guess I have a long way to go!)

And you know what, my abstract seems to be doing pretty damn well also. So is that because I picked a good subject, shot it and edited it reasonably well, or just because the voters are idiots?


Nahhhh.....you just paid them more than me...hehehehe!!

Hey...you can come and vaccuum my floors if ya want....I haven't got a maid yet!!!

Message edited by author 2008-08-30 09:21:24.
08/30/2008 09:28:51 AM · #12
Originally posted by Jaker:

It kinda gets my dander up when people get low votes and blame it on DPC. That's a cop out. If you get an average of 150-200 votes on an image, coming from people all over the world, from different experience levels and backgrounds, I would say that's a pretty good relative sample. And to be honest, this is probably a tougher crowd than most.


But when I blame DPC, it isn't based on my photos. It's based on low scores received by the excellent photos of excellent photographers, and the high scores received by silly, fluffy advertisement photos. The photographs picked by DPC remind me a lot of the singers picked by American Idol.

Originally posted by Jaker:

I've worked pretty hard at trying to figure out this skill of photography. I've been reading books, practicing, seeking out advice, etc. Consequently, I feel like I have improved, and my scores along with it.


I've spent the last couple of years learning a lot about photography, and my scores have not gone up in the slightest. My anecdotal evidence cancels out yours.

Originally posted by Lonni:

Realising that criticism is an opportunity to learn/grow is one of life's great lessons.


I participate in poetry forums that don't have voting. All they have is criticism, so I've thought about this issue quite a bit. If the critic has no idea what you're trying to do, then his criticism doesn't accomplish anything. If the critic arbitrarily applies a standard list of "rules" without understanding the purpose of those rules or how they relate to the photo in front of him, then his criticism doesn't accomplish anything. Most people here are so keen on educating photographers that they forget about educating critics.
08/30/2008 09:34:55 AM · #13
Originally posted by posthumous:

Most people here are so keen on educating photographers that they forget about educating critics.


Isn't that where this comes in?
08/30/2008 09:42:37 AM · #14
Posthumous I respect your opinion as always, and you are to be commended for going out of your way to recognize photographs that are often overlooked because they don't have mass appeal.

I'm never intended to imply that there aren't great works here that don't score well. My highest votes given are often not ribbon winners. But lets face it, this is a mass appeal contest that we've got gong on here...

Message edited by author 2008-08-30 11:02:58.
08/30/2008 09:47:48 AM · #15
Originally posted by posthumous:

The photographs picked by DPC remind me a lot of the singers picked by American Idol.


I snorted out loud when I read that :-) That's exactly how I feel...

R.
08/30/2008 10:07:57 AM · #16
sometimes it seems that DPC has become more of a training site, than a learning one
08/30/2008 10:11:05 AM · #17
Originally posted by Jaker:

Me either! My "doors" entry performed VERY poorly. I knew that it would. I thought it was interesting, so I figured I would take my lumps................


I must say on your shot I really couldn't see the sleeping man very well, missed him completely at first, and only voted it a 5 - "Sorry"! I really liked my "Door" shot too, thought it was really cute, but knew it would do poorly because it wasn't a "classic" door shot. It did even worse than yours - LOL! I generally don't think of voters as "trolls" but rather coming from all different age groups, different countries, and having different standards, viewpoints, experiences, etc. and think that they use those same criteria when voting on all the pictures so it evens out in the end. The same can probably be said for those that vote a lot of 9's and 10's.

I've been sort of lurking and debating about becoming a paid member. I want to learn but am not sure just participating in the DPC challenges will help. I think I learn more from seeing the great work of the terrific photographers here rather than entering my own images!

CJ
08/30/2008 10:11:19 AM · #18
Compared with some users I would consider myself a fairly new member. Every time I think I figured out DPC, it takes another twist, and I find myself scratching my head. When you are talking about dpc trolls, they do exist. I could never understand why a photo, that meets the challenge, fits the dpc standards on sharpness, colors, and G rating, gets a handful of 1 votes. To me that's being spiteful, and mean. There is absolutely no reason for this. That's evidence that trolls do exist. I mean dpc has so many members, that it would be an impossibility if trolls did not exist.

08/30/2008 10:28:41 AM · #19
Originally posted by sittingonthegrass:

sometimes it seems that DPC has become more of a training site, than a learning one


Interesting comment... But not sure what you mean. I've learned a lot, in my career, by training others. Sometimes as much or more, as when I went through training.

As already mentioned, the competitions here are mass appeal, aka people's choice. The learning value that I see here, is to learn to take shots that appeal to a broad range of viewers, and to learn to meet challenges that do not inspire me. If a challenge sets my brain a poppin' the moment I see it, and I have a dozen ideas, then it's easy and not much learning to be had. It's those times that I come up empty at the first cut, that I learn the most. It's the rising to that challenge, where I feel satisfaction. I am most assuredly not a professional photographer. (If I were, I'd starve.) I don't have any plans to be a pro either. But, if I thought I wanted to be a pro, I'd want to be able to take on any assignment. So I find a way to challenge myself and enjoy whatever comes along.
08/30/2008 10:41:09 AM · #20
I find it sad that it seems considered by most here as rude to speak in a negative tone about comments left, even if the comments state incorrect or impossible things. How are commenters ever to learn how to better their comments. The same for those who vote. This is why I take voting with a grain of salt. The photographers are the only ones with their necks sticking out, they are usually the only ones to get criticized.

Anyway this wasn't the point of this reply. I agree often it is, photographer error when I do not do well in a challenge. However speaking of trolls, I've noticed on three recent challenges that scores will rise and fall, then fall rapidly and hard sometime midweek for a lot of people usually citing "Trolls are here" comments in the score thread, then only some come back up again, usually the exceptional few images that stand out to late voters I suspect. Which burns me a little.

Thank you, continue with whatever you all were talking about.
08/30/2008 10:44:13 AM · #21
Originally posted by CJinCA:

Originally posted by Jaker:

Me either! My "doors" entry performed VERY poorly. I knew that it would. I thought it was interesting, so I figured I would take my lumps................


I must say on your shot I really couldn't see the sleeping man very well, missed him completely at first, and only voted it a 5 - "Sorry"! I really liked my "Door" shot too, thought it was really cute, but knew it would do poorly because it wasn't a "classic" door shot. It did even worse than yours - LOL! I generally don't think of voters as "trolls" but rather coming from all different age groups, different countries, and having different standards, viewpoints, experiences, etc. and think that they use those same criteria when voting on all the pictures so it evens out in the end. The same can probably be said for those that vote a lot of 9's and 10's.

I've been sort of lurking and debating about becoming a paid member. I want to learn but am not sure just participating in the DPC challenges will help. I think I learn more from seeing the great work of the terrific photographers here rather than entering my own images!

CJ


And you know what, that shot was lucky to get a 5 from you. Why? It wasn't even a technically good shot. I accidentally shot it at iso 1600 for pete's sake. It was grainy as hell, but even worse than that, most people couldn't see the sleeping man. If it was technically a good shot, it would have done better. Exactly my point.
08/30/2008 10:53:05 AM · #22
Originally posted by togtog:

I find it sad that it seems considered by most here as rude to speak in a negative tone about comments left, even if the comments state incorrect or impossible things. How are commenters ever to learn how to better their comments. The same for those who vote. This is why I take voting with a grain of salt. The photographers are the only ones with their necks sticking out, they are usually the only ones to get criticized.

Anyway this wasn't the point of this reply. I agree often it is, photographer error when I do not do well in a challenge. However speaking of trolls, I've noticed on three recent challenges that scores will rise and fall, then fall rapidly and hard sometime midweek for a lot of people usually citing "Trolls are here" comments in the score thread, then only some come back up again, usually the exceptional few images that stand out to late voters I suspect. Which burns me a little.

Thank you, continue with whatever you all were talking about.


I agree with you that voting "trolls" exist, but I don't think they have as big an impact as people would like to assume. My abstract shot started life at a 5.89 first time a checked. At it's peak it was at a 6.3 something. Today alone it has gone from 6.189 when i got up, to 6.2180 currently. (not that I'm hitting the update button much.) It's going to happen. At the end when the real "troll" votes are removed, we'll see what happens. That's all you can do.

As for the comments, You just have to take them, like the scores, with a grain of salt. I've disagreed with many a comment I've received, and am sure people have not always liked ones that I have left either.
08/30/2008 10:57:47 AM · #23
Originally posted by ambaker:

Originally posted by sittingonthegrass:

sometimes it seems that DPC has become more of a training site, than a learning one


Interesting comment... But not sure what you mean. I've learned a lot, in my career, by training others. Sometimes as much or more, as when I went through training.

As already mentioned, the competitions here are mass appeal, aka people's choice. The learning value that I see here, is to learn to take shots that appeal to a broad range of viewers, and to learn to meet challenges that do not inspire me. If a challenge sets my brain a poppin' the moment I see it, and I have a dozen ideas, then it's easy and not much learning to be had. It's those times that I come up empty at the first cut, that I learn the most. It's the rising to that challenge, where I feel satisfaction. I am most assuredly not a professional photographer. (If I were, I'd starve.) I don't have any plans to be a pro either. But, if I thought I wanted to be a pro, I'd want to be able to take on any assignment. So I find a way to challenge myself and enjoy whatever comes along.


Exactly how i feel. Being exposed to so many different challenges has forced me to do things i ordinarily wouldn't...thus making a learning experience out of almost every challenge. But learning is up to the individual. I'll never be a pro either, but if I were I better be able to capture i good wedding party, because i have a feeling that's what the vast majority of pro's do. They aren't filling art galleries.

08/30/2008 11:01:31 AM · #24
Originally posted by posthumous:

Most people here are so keen on educating photographers that they forget about educating critics.

One thing I've noticed is that with some of my entries, I will use a specific style, technique, whatever, and the "Trainers" will then proceed to tell me how to "fix" the very technique I was using.

That kinda cracks me up.
08/30/2008 11:08:40 AM · #25
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Most people here are so keen on educating photographers that they forget about educating critics.

One thing I've noticed is that with some of my entries, I will use a specific style, technique, whatever, and the "Trainers" will then proceed to tell me how to "fix" the very technique I was using.

That kinda cracks me up.


And I think that's awesome! You've got an artistic style that is your own, and you also smart enough to realize that you got exactly the result you intended, and that it may or may not have mass appeal for whatever reason.

I would love to see a "fine art" challenge. Take your artsiest, none DPC friendly photo. That would be an interesting experiment, because someone would still have to win, and the voters would still be wrong.
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