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08/14/2008 10:10:23 AM · #201
I just like the idea of keeping it into three different formats,

BASIC - As the rule are now.

ADVANCED - Again, as they are now.

DIGITAL - EXPERT editing, plus any image that has been changed or added to by processing with layers, textures and manipulation in anyway in photoshop, similar to the rules you had with "Expert Editing", but more open. This could be a monthly option like Monthly Free Study.
08/14/2008 10:20:53 AM · #202
I'll stick with this definition of photography, thank you. Taken from Webster's; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (as film or a CCD chip) Anything added to that definition casts a haze over what photography is in its purist of forms. You add an overlay, fine, then call it a composite or find another term, it isn't a photograph anymore, it's two photographs. Many will think it's one though and call it that and thus the confusion ensues. Younger folk who surf Flickr, Facebook etc and see these multi-tiered images will think, hey, that's a nice photograph when actually it isn't even a photograph anymore but a manipulated work of art.
08/14/2008 10:21:34 AM · #203
Originally posted by violinist123:

Like there was ever a chance of any sort of consensus being reached on this issue. Instead of chumming the waters of communal snarkiness, why not just put a poll on the front page and collect some data

1 - overlays/textures should be allowed in adv editing
2 - they shouldn't
3 - create a new ruleset allowing them in periodic challenges
4 - make the site work in windows mobile's browser instead of worrying about this

Already suggested, Einstein!!! (To address the snarkiness. :P)
08/14/2008 10:22:44 AM · #204
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

... Some seem to think it's one image as it came from the camera with only tweaks in the computer. Others see manipulation in the computer as just another step in their photographic process. There's a whole spectrum in between. What's fascinating is how people are convinced that their definition, is some how the "right" one and how those with a narrow view of photography put down images presented as photography that don't fit into their little box by deeming them "digital art"

Emphasis above added...

Again...Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

What have those photos got to do with allowing textures in Advanced editing?
08/14/2008 10:39:09 AM · #205
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by violinist123:

Like there was ever a chance of any sort of consensus being reached on this issue. Instead of chumming the waters of communal snarkiness, why not just put a poll on the front page and collect some data

1 - overlays/textures should be allowed in adv editing
2 - they shouldn't
3 - create a new ruleset allowing them in periodic challenges
4 - make the site work in windows mobile's browser instead of worrying about this

Already suggested, Einstein!!! (To address the snarkiness. :P)


Trade ya extra snarkiness for having the frigging profile link show up on my phone.
08/14/2008 10:42:25 AM · #206
Originally posted by Jac:

I'll stick with this definition of photography, thank you. Taken from Webster's; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (as film or a CCD chip) Anything added to that definition casts a haze over what photography is in its purist of forms. You add an overlay, fine, then call it a composite or find another term, it isn't a photograph anymore, it's two photographs. Many will think it's one though and call it that and thus the confusion ensues. Younger folk who surf Flickr, Facebook etc and see these multi-tiered images will think, hey, that's a nice photograph when actually it isn't even a photograph anymore but a manipulated work of art.


As I see it your argument hinges on the acceptance of the fact that any overlay applied to an image then becomes part of the image itself. I don't agree. While this is the case for web based content simply because of the confines of the medium, it certainly wouldn't be the case if you took a printed photo and framed it behind etched glass, tinted glass, or glass that had any sort of attributes beyond pure transparency. The photo is still there, it is the presentation of the photo that has been manipulated. So it is with overlays. Overlays being a small part of what is actually being discussed here.
08/14/2008 10:50:34 AM · #207
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

... Some seem to think it's one image as it came from the camera with only tweaks in the computer. Others see manipulation in the computer as just another step in their photographic process. There's a whole spectrum in between. What's fascinating is how people are convinced that their definition, is some how the "right" one and how those with a narrow view of photography put down images presented as photography that don't fit into their little box by deeming them "digital art"

Emphasis above added...

Again...Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

What have those photos got to do with allowing textures in Advanced editing?

Nothing at all to do with textures in Advanced editing - if that was the only item being discussed. This thread has picked up on the old Expert Editing ruleset as a way to allow textures. Many postings over the last few pages discuss just bringing Expert Editing back to allow the use of textures.

It's been suggested to run a couple of 'Texture Overlay' challenges once in a while, and that works fine for me.

I'm not in favor of bringing back the Expert Editing ruleset just to allow texture overlays - then you'll get wacko collages & artwork that resembles the work posted above (not from the use of textures, but from the no-holds barred use of photoshop).

Additionally, from some of the examples posted earlier depicting texture overlays (I used one of ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Judi's), I'm not in favor of seeing texture overlays allowed all the time in Advanced editing rules. Now if everyone used textures the way ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Jutilda did earlier in her example then it would be fine...problem is it will get ugly quick with over the top usage.

Keep the texture overlays as a special event...not a weekly, regular item.
08/14/2008 11:19:17 AM · #208
Originally posted by RKT:

For those who think that using these overlays is not photography...I ask you this. I did very similar things in a darkroom, with real photo paper and chemicals, a negative, and an enlarger. Would my end product not in fact be a photograph? It sure as heck wouldn't be digital art.


I did a lot of that back in the day. We called them "photomanipulations". A lot of people thought work like this was "not photography", but there was consensus, at least in the "art community", that it was "art". For whatever that's worth.

My position on this issue? I agree that texture layers should not be an everyday part of the advanced ruleset. I would like to see challenges that DO allow textures, though. I don't think the "expert ruleset" is the way to allow them, because then they get subsumed into overt digital manipulation in the no-holds-barred arena.

So I'd be in favor of a special rule tacked onto the advanced ruleset for these challenges, and I'd argue that the special rule should allow textures created from images shot outside the challenge timeframe, as some of us have libraries of these and, of course, photoshop has texture libraries as well.

R.
08/14/2008 11:23:24 AM · #209
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by RKT:

For those who think that using these overlays is not photography...I ask you this. I did very similar things in a darkroom, with real photo paper and chemicals, a negative, and an enlarger. Would my end product not in fact be a photograph? It sure as heck wouldn't be digital art.


I did a lot of that back in the day. We called them "photomanipulations". A lot of people thought work like this was "not photography", but there was consensus, at least in the "art community", that it was "art". For whatever that's worth.

My position on this issue? I agree that texture layers should not be an everyday part of the advanced ruleset. I would like to see challenges that DO allow textures, though. I don't think the "expert ruleset" is the way to allow them, because then they get subsumed into overt digital manipulation in the no-holds-barred arena.

So I'd be in favor of a special rule tacked onto the advanced ruleset for these challenges, and I'd argue that the special rule should allow textures created from images shot outside the challenge timeframe, as some of us have libraries of these and, of course, photoshop has texture libraries as well.

R.


Like "3) Add a new category which is advanced+ (includes textures) " to be run occasionally (once or twice a month)?
08/14/2008 11:32:33 AM · #210
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Like "3) Add a new category which is advanced+ (includes textures) " to be run occasionally (once or twice a month)?


Sure. I haven't but skimmed the entire thread, so I don't know much of what's gone before.

R.
08/14/2008 11:54:49 AM · #211
Originally posted by violinist123:

Originally posted by Jac:

I'll stick with this definition of photography, thank you. Taken from Webster's; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface (as film or a CCD chip) Anything added to that definition casts a haze over what photography is in its purist of forms. You add an overlay, fine, then call it a composite or find another term, it isn't a photograph anymore, it's two photographs. Many will think it's one though and call it that and thus the confusion ensues. Younger folk who surf Flickr, Facebook etc and see these multi-tiered images will think, hey, that's a nice photograph when actually it isn't even a photograph anymore but a manipulated work of art.


As I see it your argument hinges on the acceptance of the fact that any overlay applied to an image then becomes part of the image itself. I don't agree. While this is the case for web based content simply because of the confines of the medium, it certainly wouldn't be the case if you took a printed photo and framed it behind etched glass, tinted glass, or glass that had any sort of attributes beyond pure transparency. The photo is still there, it is the presentation of the photo that has been manipulated. So it is with overlays. Overlays being a small part of what is actually being discussed here.


I agree but web images are pretty much permanent and I guess you can say my argument applies to web based unalterable images then. Placing a piece of glass over a photo does not involve any permanence to the actual photo and can be removed. A saved jpeg on a web page is often seen as a final product of what the artist was going for and so cannot be looked at as a photo with a piece of glass layered above it. Thanks for the clarification.
08/14/2008 12:01:24 PM · #212
Originally posted by Jutilda:

I almost feel like people are afraid of stretching the envelope here.


Afraid of change.
Insecure about their own work they feel threaten by others.
Lack of skills in the digital darkroom.

Pick one.

These threads always follow the same formula. Those who can't (or show no indication they can) attack those who can. The playbook is as old as dirt.
08/14/2008 12:13:36 PM · #213
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Jac:

I have skimmed this thread and I'll offer my 2 cents worth.

First this. Photography; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface

Do not allow overlays, textures or whatever you want to call them for they add something in a photo that makes said photo into a collage of sorts. A photograph is a document that captures the light that you let through the lens to hit the sensor, nothing else. If anything obstructs, changes, modifies that light then you have made something other than a document of the actual light in the scene. You have created something that may please the eye but is it a recorded document of the light in the scene you tried capturing? No.

I am all for specific challenges that emphasize the use of textures/overlays but it must not be introduced to every challenge for it will change the face of DPC forever. imo


I don't accept the narrow definition of photography you give.

Who says photography is restricted to being a recorded document of the light in the scene ?


Physics.


Are you trying to be funny? So by your logic this should also apply:

Writing; the art or process of producing words on an ink sensitive surface.

I sure hope you're not a writer <insert something else> who has moved on to using computers to produce poetry, screenplays, essays, etc.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 12:14:51.
08/14/2008 12:15:08 PM · #214
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I almost feel like people are afraid of stretching the envelope here.


Afraid of change.
Insecure about their own work they feel threaten by others.
Lack of skills in the digital darkroom.

Pick one.

These threads always follow the same formula. Those who can't (or show no indication they can) attack those who can. The playbook is as old as dirt.


I think there's another element here though; there are members who want this site to be "about" traditional, or conventional, photography. They are not "afraid" of these other things, they just don't want to deal with them or compete against them. I think you do these people a disservice by imputing "insecurity" tot hem; their point is a valid one, that up til now DPC has been perhaps the only, and certainly the best, "pure" photography contest site, and they want to keep it that way.

Others of us want to see the site "broadened", to include categories for these other sorts of image making. I don't think I['ve seen anyone seriously propose that the rules be changed so anything goes, all the time, but a LOT of people want to be able to enter challenges with special skills ets involved.

Does it in anyway "harm" DPC to run these special challenges? personally, I don't think so and I welcome them. But I don't for a minute believe that those who oppose them, as a group, are somehow frightened or intimidated by them.

R.
08/14/2008 12:23:15 PM · #215
Originally posted by yanko:

... These threads always follow the same formula. Those who can't (or show no indication they can) attack those who can. The playbook is as old as dirt.

Oh, very nice - "attack" ??? If anything you appear to have it backwards - those who can and don't get their way feel the need to push their agenda with a somewhat superiority complex? That's probably not a fair statement now either, is it?

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Just as some people cannot stand to see pet/flower/water/bug/etc...photo's in challenges - others enjoy them.

There are obviously different opinions on where the line gets crossed on when/if a photo becomes something other than a photograph.

You may want to head to the library and look for other variations of your "playbook". :-)

ETA - what Robert (Bear_Music) said. :-D

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 12:25:24.
08/14/2008 12:25:53 PM · #216
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

But I don't for a minute believe that those who oppose them, as a group, are somehow frightened or intimidated by them.

I think that there's some element of it, though, in some of the individuals representing that group. Who, I don't know. It would be wrong to misrepresent opposition to this as entirely based on being intimidated by techniques they have no talent for, but I do think there may be some of that.
08/14/2008 12:27:33 PM · #217
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Additionally, from some of the examples posted earlier depicting texture overlays (I used one of ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Judi's), I'm not in favor of seeing texture overlays allowed all the time in Advanced editing rules. Now if everyone used textures the way ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Jutilda did earlier in her example then it would be fine...problem is it will get ugly quick with over the top usage.

So it's a judgement based on your preferred style of photograph, not on the tools used to produce them. Then allow the site to grow into a new ruleset and vote according to your tastes -- as presumably you do now.
08/14/2008 12:27:38 PM · #218
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I almost feel like people are afraid of stretching the envelope here.


Afraid of change.
Insecure about their own work they feel threaten by others.
Lack of skills in the digital darkroom.

Pick one.

These threads always follow the same formula. Those who can't (or show no indication they can) attack those who can. The playbook is as old as dirt.


It can't be rolled up into those simple categories. It most probably doesn't have anything to do with lack of skills in the digital darkroom or lack of knowledge in any enhancement software. It may have to do with traditional, purist beliefs.


Well I refreshed my page while writing my answer and noticed Bear's post, it exemplifies what I was going to say. Thanks Bear for saving me some time. I'm all for challenges that offer overlays and textures and I will definitely participate in them. I just do not want the rules to include overlys in every challenge on this site.
08/14/2008 12:33:11 PM · #219
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I think there's another element here though; there are members who want this site to be "about" traditional, or conventional, photography. They are not "afraid" of these other things, they just don't want to deal with them or compete against them. I think you do these people a disservice by imputing "insecurity" tot hem; their point is a valid one, that up til now DPC has been perhaps the only, and certainly the best, "pure" photography contest site, and they want to keep it that way.

Others of us want to see the site "broadened", to include categories for these other sorts of image making. I don't think I['ve seen anyone seriously propose that the rules be changed so anything goes, all the time, but a LOT of people want to be able to enter challenges with special skills ets involved.

Does it in anyway "harm" DPC to run these special challenges? personally, I don't think so and I welcome them. But I don't for a minute believe that those who oppose them, as a group, are somehow frightened or intimidated by them.

R.


Well their actions seem to suggest otherwise, IMO. And yes there has been harm here by the very group you are defending. This group continues to insult people's work over and over again.
08/14/2008 12:45:41 PM · #220
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by yanko:

... These threads always follow the same formula. Those who can't (or show no indication they can) attack those who can. The playbook is as old as dirt.

Oh, very nice - "attack" ??? If anything you appear to have it backwards - those who can and don't get their way feel the need to push their agenda with a somewhat superiority complex? That's probably not a fair statement now either, is it?


Fair statement? I don't know. I didn't realize this subject of textures has been decided yet and people are still fighting for it? What I have seen is people defending their own style of work AFTER it came under attack (like how it always happens here). That's what I'm saying.
08/14/2008 12:52:49 PM · #221
(Punch it, Art
Yo, I don't think we should talk about this
Come on, why not?
People might misunderstand what we're tryin' to say, you know?
No, but that's a part of life)

Come on

Let's talk about textures, baby
Let's talk about photography
Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk about textures
Let's talk about textures
Let's talk about textures
Let's talk about textures

Let's talk about textures for now to the people at home or in the crowd
It keeps coming up anyhow
Don't decoy, avoid, or make void the topic
Cuz that ain't gonna stop it
Now we talk about textures on the art and photography threads
Many will know anything goes
Let's tell it how it is, and how it could be
How it was, and of course, how it should be
Those who think it's unphotographic have a choice
Pick up the mouse, press ignore, or turn the browser off
Will that stop us, Barry? I doubt it
All right then, come on, Whinge

[CHORUS]

RKT don't stop, make any man's eyes pop
She use the overlays she got to get whatever she don't got
Fellas drool like fools, but then again they're only human
The pic was a hit because her blendin' was boomin'
Gold, pearl, ruby, crazy diamonds
Nothin' she layered in was ever common
Her taste was da state of the art
Lawyers, doctors, no one was too smart for her to score with
Six or more with, Langdon she says was next on her list
And believe me, you, it's as good as true
There ain't a man alive that she couldn't appeal to
She had it all in the bag so she should have been glad
But she was mad and sad and feelin' bad
Thinkin' about the things that she never had
No advanced, just expert, but they cancelled that ruleset
Girl was upset

Let's talk about textures, baby (sing it)
Let's talk about photography (sing it, sing it)
Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk about textures(come on)
Let's talk about extreme (do it)
Let's talk about expert (uh-huh)
Let's talk about textures

Ladies, all the ladies, louder now, help me out
Come on, all the ladies - let's talk about textures, all right
[repeat]

(Yo, Louis, I don't think they're gonna validate my image, yo
And why not? Everybody has textures
I mean, everybody should be makin' overlays
Come on, how many guys you know make overlays?)

[CHORUS]
08/14/2008 12:54:00 PM · #222
LOL
08/14/2008 12:55:54 PM · #223
Originally posted by posthumous:


Let's talk about textures, baby


ooh! ooh! i wanna be Spinderella!
08/14/2008 01:02:46 PM · #224
Earlier in this thread (pre-Rapper/songwriter)...
Originally posted by posthumous:

... In "Advanced Editing" ban all textures and overlays. ...

08/14/2008 01:13:09 PM · #225
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Earlier in this thread (pre-Rapper/songwriter)...
Originally posted by posthumous:

... In "Advanced Editing" ban all textures and overlays. ...


so... are you calling me a hypocrite because I tried to compromise with you?

The rap song, btw, does not necessarily reflect the opinions of this station.
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