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08/14/2008 12:03:08 AM · #176
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.

And that it crossed the line into imagery/graphic type work that was far from the base of photography that this site is built on.


Riiight.
08/14/2008 12:12:54 AM · #177
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Mick:

I think digital photography and digital art are two different things. Digital photography requires a photograph from a digital camera. The result should look like a photograph. Digital art does not require a photograph. It might incorporate one, or even several photos, but they are not required. The result can look like anything the artist desires. It might even look exactly like a photo, but it would still be digital art. If a photographer edits a photo so much that it no longer resembles the original photo, then the result is digital art. Of course, this is only my opinion. Others no doubt have different opinions.

I don't think digital art is a bad thing. However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. [snip]


First you say it's just your opinion and many others will disagree but then turn around and pretty much say your opinion should prevail in regards to what DPC should consider as photography. Obviously my opinion differs than yours. My opinion of digital art is much like that wikipedia link posted earler that clearly defines what it is. You use a highly subjective untestable requirement and I still don't know where your line is. Basically what you are saying is "I'll know it when I see it". No offense but that's the hallmark of the uninformed.


I never said that my opinion should prevail about anything. I don’t know where you got that. It certainly wasn’t in my post. I suggest you read again… carefully.

My post was in reply to someone that said digital art and digital photography are merging, as if they’re becoming one and the same thing. I disagreed with that idea. I said that I think they’re two separate things. Sure, they’re closely related. They both involve bitmap editing. However, in my opinion, they’re still two different things. Do you call all digital photos digital art? I don’t, and I doubt that many others do either. If a machinist and a carpenter both use the same type of hammer, does that mean the machinist is a carpenter? I don't think so.

As for the wikipedia article, I didn’t see anything in it that disagreed with anything that I said. The article doesn’t even try to define the differences between digital art and digital photography, and it didn’t say they were one and the same. I believe there is a difference. I also believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on what the differences are, if any, and where they draw the line. If you‘re looking for a non-subjective, testable definition of the requirements that define what digital art is, then I wish you luck. I don’t think you’ll find it. About the only thing I know for sure is that digital photographs require a digital camera.

I stated my opinion. I never said it was anything other than my own opinion. I also said that others would have different opinions. That’s fine with me. If you want to believe that you can do whatever you want to an image and call it digital photography, then that’s fine with me. I really don’t care. Of course, no offense, but it’s just another uninformed opinion.

08/14/2008 01:55:21 AM · #178
Originally posted by Mick:

I never said that my opinion should prevail about anything. I don’t know where you got that. It certainly wasn’t in my post. I suggest you read again… carefully.


It would be this part:

Originally posted by Mick:

However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. There are lots of other sites devoted to digital art.


It seems clear to me that you're making the claim that digital art and photography are two separate things (i.e. your opinion) and that the site should put it's emphasis on photography. I'm assuming here when you say it should emphasize photography you are referring to your definition of it, no? If so how is that not trying to argue that your opinion should prevail? Why even bring up the domain name if that wasn't your intent?

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 02:27:22.
08/14/2008 03:03:16 AM · #179
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Mick:

I never said that my opinion should prevail about anything. I don’t know where you got that. It certainly wasn’t in my post. I suggest you read again… carefully.


It would be this part:

Originally posted by Mick:

However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. There are lots of other sites devoted to digital art.


It seems clear to me that you're making the claim that digital art and photography are two separate things (i.e. your opinion) and that the site should put it's emphasis on photography. Noow I assume that last line you were talking about your version of what photography is since that sentence follows the one before. How is that not trying to argue that your opinion should prevail?

I don't understand what your problem is. The three sentences of mine that you quoted are all true.

1. "However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge."
Unless they've changed the name recently, this sentence is true.

2. "I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography."
Do you doubt it? I'm quite certain that I know what I think, so this sentence is also true.

3. "There are lots of other sites devoted to digital art."
A few minutes browsing the web will show that this one is also true.

The only one that could even remotely be called an opinion is #2. Nowhere in that sentence do I imply that my opinion should prevail over anyone else's. It simply states what I believe to be a fact. Many people here have said the same thing in numerous threads.

If you think any of that is untrue, then please enlighten me. Otherwise...

08/14/2008 03:16:38 AM · #180
Originally posted by Mick:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Mick:

I never said that my opinion should prevail about anything. I don’t know where you got that. It certainly wasn’t in my post. I suggest you read again… carefully.


It would be this part:

Originally posted by Mick:

However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. There are lots of other sites devoted to digital art.


It seems clear to me that you're making the claim that digital art and photography are two separate things (i.e. your opinion) and that the site should put it's emphasis on photography. Noow I assume that last line you were talking about your version of what photography is since that sentence follows the one before. How is that not trying to argue that your opinion should prevail?

I don't understand what your problem is. The three sentences of mine that you quoted are all true.

1. "However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge."
Unless they've changed the name recently, this sentence is true.

2. "I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography."
Do you doubt it? I'm quite certain that I know what I think, so this sentence is also true.

3. "There are lots of other sites devoted to digital art."
A few minutes browsing the web will show that this one is also true.

The only one that could even remotely be called an opinion is #2. Nowhere in that sentence do I imply that my opinion should prevail over anyone else's. It simply states what I believe to be a fact. Many people here have said the same thing in numerous threads.

If you think any of that is untrue, then please enlighten me. Otherwise...


*Sigh* Ok, I now replaced "digital art" and replaced it with "portraiture" in your quote. What do you think the following implies?

"However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Portraiture Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. There are lots of other sites devoted to portraiture."

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 03:21:19.
08/14/2008 05:18:45 AM · #181
Originally posted by yanko:

*Sigh* Ok, I now replaced "digital art" and replaced it with "portraiture" in your quote. What do you think the following implies?

"However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Portraiture Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. There are lots of other sites devoted to portraiture."

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking. Can you rephrase the question?

On second thought, why don't we just drop it. I've been writing code for about 14 hours straight and I'm starting to get cross-eyed. We can just agree to disagree. How's that?

08/14/2008 07:18:51 AM · #182
I vote "Allow textures and overlays. "
DPC's continuing loosing proposition of editing categories - narrow & provincial definitions of photographic process serve no purpose, except to stifle the competition & free expression. Eliminate those stupid editing categories and simply write a clear & comprehensive challenge description.
08/14/2008 07:57:45 AM · #183
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.

And that it crossed the line into imagery/graphic type work that was far from the base of photography that this site is built on.


actually, we don't know the reason they stopped because they never told us.
08/14/2008 08:13:50 AM · #184
if it's still relevant, my vote goes with option 2, but hat about applying the same rules with regards to time frames etc to the texture used as well? So it must be shot within the running dates of the challenge and not one you've had on your hd for years or bought from deviant art.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 08:14:49.
08/14/2008 08:36:29 AM · #185
I have skimmed this thread and I'll offer my 2 cents worth.

First this. Photography; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface

Do not allow overlays, textures or whatever you want to call them for they add something in a photo that makes said photo into a collage of sorts. A photograph is a document that captures the light that you let through the lens to hit the sensor, nothing else. If anything obstructs, changes, modifies that light then you have made something other than a document of the actual light in the scene. You have created something that may please the eye but is it a recorded document of the light in the scene you tried capturing? No.

I am all for specific challenges that emphasize the use of textures/overlays but it must not be introduced to every challenge for it will change the face of DPC forever. imo
08/14/2008 08:36:36 AM · #186
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.

And that it crossed the line into imagery/graphic type work that was far from the base of photography that this site is built on.

Riiight.

Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

...this is the kind of stuff you'll see with free-for-all challenges. Digital graphics, not photography.
08/14/2008 08:39:50 AM · #187
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.

And that it crossed the line into imagery/graphic type work that was far from the base of photography that this site is built on.

Riiight.

Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

...this is the kind of stuff you'll see with free-for-all challenges. Digital graphics, not photography.


Agreed.
08/14/2008 08:40:09 AM · #188
I'm beginning to think I'll just stick to our monthly side challenges as the rule set would make it hard to create the images that I am trying to defend. I have images and textures that I have saved for over a year. Some are true "photograhs" whereas others are a mixture of photographs and brush strokes that took some time to create: others were created by other photographers. Or what if at the announcement date of one of these "free style" challenges, only textures that are currently in the DPC gallery as of that announcement date, will be allowed? OR don't worry about it, since it is just used for adding depth and character to a shot.

The argument that digitan photography and digital art are not merging - that seems rather silly and almost naive given the technology that exists. You can look up sites that display art, and even commercial art galleries, and you will see photography as a listed category. Photography = Art. If you draw the line that certain creative license not be allowed, then I think it squelches the imaginative approach that any given person might use. SIGH

I almost feel like people are afraid of stretching the envelope here.
08/14/2008 08:51:48 AM · #189
i dont understand what people are so afraid of with the advent of textures and how it seems to be denigrating photography, or is some way making it less 'honest' to the viewer when it happens to include a texture... never mind thats in the photographer's/ artist's initial vision, or a means of getting his point across. Are ppl upset that it is modifying the picture? If so, what are your thoughts on USM, or changing colour tones? Or making a picture sepia toned? Aren't all these forms of manipulation, albeit more acceptable ones?

Also, if this texture ruling does pass and they become legal, there is nothing saying you HAVE to use them, its just giving the photographers (or digital artists as you may label them) an extra brush in their artbox to use to get their point across.

If it gets used in the 'free study' environment then what the hell does it matter anyway, its meant to be a FREE study with a relaxation on the regulations that comprise so many of the challenges here and thus allow for maneuverability for artistic vision to manifest itself.

I told myself i'd stay out of these conversations because it's kind of like commenting on a YouTube video and inevitably comes down to ppl whining (like I am) and not getting anywhere. You have the option to tell the original poster which option you select. Choose, and leave it there. If this society is as democratic as i presume then the ruling will reflect that. I have made my decision, and only justified it when the old (ancient) record started playing of how it "isn't photography" and is "digital art" and got stuck there.

The world of photography is changing every day and many more things exist besides textures that can alter an image from it's original form, it just seems to be the biggest target to hit with whatever venom ppl decide to spit.

This site is intended (i think) as a learning tool for other photographers and also regarded as a showcase for some of the best talent shooting in a digital format- we should not close off one avenue and stunt people's education because some ppl feel threatened by its inclusion in a rule set.

Feel free to PM me over this so as not to clog up the thread.

Thank you for your time.
08/14/2008 08:58:49 AM · #190
A 'texture is a second photograph. who defines what a texture is? you can't, only the photographer can. The line will be impossible to draw. So the question becomes "do we allow combinations of photograps?" and that leads to "is this photography or what?

I'm in the I LOVE THEM camp but the site council has to be wary of an line they draw and the disputes that will occur on each side of that arbitrary line.
08/14/2008 09:12:27 AM · #191
we have the coice of 3 challenges a week so why not run them under different rulesets. Have one a week under basic but make the others minimal, advanced or artistic, yeah I just made that one up but it might work.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 09:13:07.
08/14/2008 09:24:36 AM · #192
Originally posted by glad2badad:

...this is the kind of stuff you'll see with free-for-all challenges. Digital graphics, not photography.

What's that got to do with texture overlays?
08/14/2008 09:43:31 AM · #193
Originally posted by Mick:


...

2. "I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography."
Do you doubt it? I'm quite certain that I know what I think, so this sentence is also true.



The big issue is people have differing definitions of what comprises photography aside from the fact that at some point during the creation of a photograph an image of something is focused onto a light sensitive media.

Some seem to think it's one image as it came from the camera with only tweaks in the computer. Others see manipulation in the computer as just another step in their photographic process. There's a whole spectrum in between. What's fascinating is how people are convinced that their definition, is some how the "right" one and how those with a narrow view of photography put down images presented as photography that don't fit into their little box by deeming them "digital art"
08/14/2008 09:48:40 AM · #194
Originally posted by Jac:

I have skimmed this thread and I'll offer my 2 cents worth.

First this. Photography; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface

Do not allow overlays, textures or whatever you want to call them for they add something in a photo that makes said photo into a collage of sorts. A photograph is a document that captures the light that you let through the lens to hit the sensor, nothing else. If anything obstructs, changes, modifies that light then you have made something other than a document of the actual light in the scene. You have created something that may please the eye but is it a recorded document of the light in the scene you tried capturing? No.

I am all for specific challenges that emphasize the use of textures/overlays but it must not be introduced to every challenge for it will change the face of DPC forever. imo


I don't accept the narrow definition of photography you give.

Who says photography is restricted to being a recorded document of the light in the scene ?

08/14/2008 09:51:07 AM · #195
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Jac:

I have skimmed this thread and I'll offer my 2 cents worth.

First this. Photography; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface

Do not allow overlays, textures or whatever you want to call them for they add something in a photo that makes said photo into a collage of sorts. A photograph is a document that captures the light that you let through the lens to hit the sensor, nothing else. If anything obstructs, changes, modifies that light then you have made something other than a document of the actual light in the scene. You have created something that may please the eye but is it a recorded document of the light in the scene you tried capturing? No.

I am all for specific challenges that emphasize the use of textures/overlays but it must not be introduced to every challenge for it will change the face of DPC forever. imo


I don't accept the narrow definition of photography you give.

Who says photography is restricted to being a recorded document of the light in the scene ?


Physics.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 09:51:27.
08/14/2008 09:53:14 AM · #196
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

... Some seem to think it's one image as it came from the camera with only tweaks in the computer. Others see manipulation in the computer as just another step in their photographic process. There's a whole spectrum in between. What's fascinating is how people are convinced that their definition, is some how the "right" one and how those with a narrow view of photography put down images presented as photography that don't fit into their little box by deeming them "digital art"

Emphasis above added...

Again...Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
08/14/2008 09:58:19 AM · #197
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

... Some seem to think it's one image as it came from the camera with only tweaks in the computer. Others see manipulation in the computer as just another step in their photographic process. There's a whole spectrum in between. What's fascinating is how people are convinced that their definition, is some how the "right" one and how those with a narrow view of photography put down images presented as photography that don't fit into their little box by deeming them "digital art"

Emphasis above added...

Again...Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


...in your opinion...
08/14/2008 10:01:58 AM · #198
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Jac:

I have skimmed this thread and I'll offer my 2 cents worth.

First this. Photography; the art or process of producing images by the action of radiant energy and especially light on a sensitive surface

Do not allow overlays, textures or whatever you want to call them for they add something in a photo that makes said photo into a collage of sorts. A photograph is a document that captures the light that you let through the lens to hit the sensor, nothing else. If anything obstructs, changes, modifies that light then you have made something other than a document of the actual light in the scene. You have created something that may please the eye but is it a recorded document of the light in the scene you tried capturing? No.

I am all for specific challenges that emphasize the use of textures/overlays but it must not be introduced to every challenge for it will change the face of DPC forever. imo


I don't accept the narrow definition of photography you give.

Who says photography is restricted to being a recorded document of the light in the scene ?


Physics.


Where's the "Law of Photography"? I looked through all of my physics texts and can't seem to find it.

Sorry, but physics won't help you cram all that is photography into your little box.
08/14/2008 10:02:24 AM · #199
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Jutilda:

I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.

And that it crossed the line into imagery/graphic type work that was far from the base of photography that this site is built on.

Riiight.

Wonderful artwork, but certainly not photographs anymore...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543104.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543886.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/702/120/543876.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

...this is the kind of stuff you'll see with free-for-all challenges. Digital graphics, not photography.


Did you actually look at my earlier post glad2badad? Here's the link to the page it's on. Did you look at the example I posted of my own work?

THOSE WHO KEEP INSISTING WE ARE ASKING FOR SOME SORT OF GRAPHIC DESIGN RULE SET...READ THIS!

WE JUST WANT A COUPLE OF CHALLENGES, MAYBE ONE A MONTH WHERE THE USE OF OVERLAYS IS ALLOWED!!!!


It will not be the end of the world as we know it. It is still photography. For those who KEEP insisting that it is not...PLEASE GO READ THE FULL THREAD AND ACTUALLY CLICK THE LINKS THAT WILL BRING YOU TO THE OVERLAY SIDE CHALLENGES AND THREADS AND HAVE A LOOK.

We are getting tired of repeating ourselves over and over because some simply don't want to read and comprehend.

I just don't get the fear. Photography is ever evolving...has been since it started. There are purists and those who embrace change and experimentation. There is room for all of us...especially here at DPC.

08/14/2008 10:06:35 AM · #200
Like there was ever a chance of any sort of consensus being reached on this issue. Instead of chumming the waters of communal snarkiness, why not just put a poll on the front page and collect some data

1 - overlays/textures should be allowed in adv editing
2 - they shouldn't
3 - create a new ruleset allowing them in periodic challenges
4 - make the site work in windows mobile's browser instead of worrying about this
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