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08/12/2008 09:01:55 PM · #151
Originally posted by RKT:

The thing is...modern photography and digital art are merging, have been for a long time. Like I mentioned in an earlier post...photography evolves. I did some rather unorthodox things long ago in my actual darkroom and never got the grief people seem to get occasionally for crossing this ever moving line between digital art and photography. Can someone please define digital art? And why are some so offended by it?

I believe there is room for all of us here at DPC. We're not asking that every challenge be an "open" challenge...not at all. Some of us would just like to see this sort of challenge more than a couple times a year is all. Anyone who doesn't like textures/overlays/digital art/ don't have to enter, or vote. I don't see this being the downfall of DPC.

And honestly...if someone can turn a crap image into something lovely by working with layers in Photoshop...who cares and good for them.

Yes this is a photography site, but photography is a many and varied thing anymore...why try to keep it in a cage?

I think digital photography and digital art are two different things. Digital photography requires a photograph from a digital camera. The result should look like a photograph. Digital art does not require a photograph. It might incorporate one, or even several photos, but they are not required. The result can look like anything the artist desires. It might even look exactly like a photo, but it would still be digital art. If a photographer edits a photo so much that it no longer resembles the original photo, then the result is digital art. Of course, this is only my opinion. Others no doubt have different opinions.

I don't think digital art is a bad thing. However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. There are lots of other sites devoted to digital art. I wouldn't mind if we had both digital photography and digital art challenges. I just think we should keep them separate. The two are often closely related, and deciding when a photo has crossed the line into digital art is a matter of opinion. Lots of opinions. I also hate to see people that can't photograph their way out of a wet paper bag being touted as great photographers simply because they're good with Photoshop.
08/12/2008 09:11:43 PM · #152
Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by skewsme:

Stop being bullied by people who are intimidated by possibility. Bring back expert editing. What's the harm in a well-defined once-in-a-while?


Bring back expert editing with a condition that you only enter if you are using processing steps outside of Advanced or Basic and only entrants can vote. That way you won't get the 'anti-expert editing' voters hitting the obviously edited images hard. If they like Expert Editing, they will enter it to start with.

To appease the DPC audience...run a bonus challenge that has 3 choices, basic, Advanced and Expert Editing...but you can only enter one and you can only vote on the one you entered!

That will sort the worms out.


I wouldnt be supporting not allowing 'anti-expert editing' voters from participating. It wouldnt be fair because 'anti-expert' photogs have been dealing with getting low votes for their images not 'popping' or having 'wow' effects all this time.
08/12/2008 09:27:16 PM · #153
Much of the confusion is arising because people are insisting on calling the use of a second photograph as a texture overlaid on the first "digital art". It's not. Here's how wiki defines digital art. And, here is an example of digital art from that page. The example incorporates a photograph -- maybe -- but this is hardly the kind of thing we're talking about when we're considering allowing people to add a picture of cracked cement overtop a picture of their cat.
08/12/2008 10:13:47 PM · #154
Originally posted by Louis:

... this is hardly the kind of thing we're talking about when we're considering allowing people to add a picture of cracked cement overtop a picture of their cat.

No disrespect intended towards ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Judi, she's a wonderful photographer...I'm using this piece of work as an example since it was posted in this thread to be used as a 'texture' example.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/25000-29999/27133/120/647560.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/25000-29999/27133/120/647560.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Is this the kind of thing that should be on the front page of DPC? There is no detail left in the underlying photo at all. To me, this is a piece of art - call it 'digital art' if you want, but it's still a LONG way from photography IMO.

Next question...look at the comments on this example - put this up against a more 'traditional' photo in an advanced challenge and the results are going to be quite polarizing within the DPC community. I mention this because the premise in the OP was to consider 'texture' on a regular basis with the advanced ruleset. Since that OP the conversation has leaned towards bringing back the expert editing ruleset as a place for allowing textures. While I'm not a fan of expert editing either, it's certainly the lesser of two evils to have an expert challenge once in awhile, versus looking at this texture stuff on a weekly basis.

All JMO of course, and food for thought.
08/12/2008 10:18:05 PM · #155
I like the third option the best myself, although it's all rather over my head.
08/12/2008 10:47:28 PM · #156

Originally posted by glad2badad:

put this up against a more 'traditional' photo in an advanced challenge and the results are going to be quite polarizing within the DPC community.


What isn't polarzing in the dpc community?

Someone wants to put their picture in a frame behind clear glass, scratched glass, red glass, blue glass, a sewer cap with holes punched in it - it's still a photo underneath.
08/12/2008 11:04:50 PM · #157
I didn't read through all of this thread yet.
My thoughts are if we want to allow some to use textures, then present the challenge entries in advanced or expert editing in two groups, one with textures, and the other without. When voting is over, post the top scoring images from each group side by side.
This would allow everyone to score the whole challenge as they see fit, and still allow those who like or want to experiment with "artsy" things to have a go at it without getting DQ's. It would also take some of the heat off the SC about what to allow and not allow.
This could be a special rules challenge on occasion, so we would not wear it out.

08/12/2008 11:17:19 PM · #158
For the sake of discussion I applied a random file to an image. The first one uses Photoshop's Texturizer filter to render a dimensional surface texture. The second is a simple overlay using the same file on a partially transparent layer (and different blend modes will yield different effects):

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/17203/120/631117.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/17203/120/631117.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/17203/120/631116.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/17203/120/631116.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

I only bring it up because most of the effects we call "textures" on DPC are actually overlays IMO, though it may not matter much in the context of this thread. Good discussion, carry on.
08/12/2008 11:44:15 PM · #159
This has 3 layers (varying modes and adjustments) and an overlay. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/15711/120/710236.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/15711/120/710236.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

If it is what some would call digital art and doesn't look like a photograph, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
08/12/2008 11:49:00 PM · #160
Originally posted by Jutilda:

This has 3 layers (varying modes and adjustments) and an overlay. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/15711/120/710236.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/15711/120/710236.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

If it is what some would call digital art and doesn't look like a photograph, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

What/where is the 'texture'? In the "overlay"? It is very subtle for sure and if asked, I would say there's no texture there at all.
08/13/2008 12:09:13 AM · #161
I'll say that allowing overlays would be enough to get me to pay for my membership again. I am not going to get into the huge argument that this is going to bring but I am for it.
08/13/2008 12:11:24 AM · #162
Originally posted by glad2badad:

What/where is the 'texture'? In the "overlay"? It is very subtle for sure and if asked, I would say there's no texture there at all.


That's my point. Sometimes they can be subtle yet add some depth to the overall image. Depending on the mode and opacity, it is a nice addition to a photo, just like levels and curves adjustments.

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 00:11:55.
08/13/2008 12:14:45 AM · #163
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by Louis:

... this is hardly the kind of thing we're talking about when we're considering allowing people to add a picture of cracked cement overtop a picture of their cat.

No disrespect intended towards ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Judi, she's a wonderful photographer...I'm using this piece of work as an example since it was posted in this thread to be used as a 'texture' example.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/25000-29999/27133/120/647560.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/25000-29999/27133/120/647560.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Is this the kind of thing that should be on the front page of DPC? There is no detail left in the underlying photo at all. To me, this is a piece of art - call it 'digital art' if you want, but it's still a LONG way from photography IMO.

Next question...look at the comments on this example - put this up against a more 'traditional' photo in an advanced challenge and the results are going to be quite polarizing within the DPC community. I mention this because the premise in the OP was to consider 'texture' on a regular basis with the advanced ruleset. Since that OP the conversation has leaned towards bringing back the expert editing ruleset as a place for allowing textures. While I'm not a fan of expert editing either, it's certainly the lesser of two evils to have an expert challenge once in awhile, versus looking at this texture stuff on a weekly basis.

All JMO of course, and food for thought.


Yes...many of us would like to see something different a couple times a month on the front page. Heck...I'd settle for once a month.

I don't know...I think there is plenty of detail left in Judi's image. It is not digital art. Look at Louis's post above that will direct anyone who is confused about what digital art is. Go to the Wiki site and have a good look.

Again, those of use who enjoy using overlays would like to be able to enter some of our work in a challenge with specific rules that would allow for such a thing. We are not asking that all the rule sets be changed to accommodate this technique.

For those who think that using these overlays is not photography...I ask you this. I did very similar things in a darkroom, with real photo paper and chemicals, a negative, and an enlarger. Would my end product not in fact be a photograph? It sure as heck wouldn't be digital art.

I often use overlays to mimic the look of an old photograph. The overlays are images taken from antique photographic examples in my collection:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/708471.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/708471.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/708470.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/708470.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/696065.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/696065.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/701285.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35804/120/701285.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

These look like photographs to me. I wouldn't dream of calling them digital art...not in a million years.
08/13/2008 12:15:27 AM · #164
Originally posted by [user:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' glad2badad[/user]]
Originally posted by Jutilda:

This has 3 layers (varying modes and adjustments) and an overlay. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/15711/120/710236.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/15711/120/710236.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

If it is what some would call digital art and doesn't look like a photograph, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

What/where is the 'texture'? In the "overlay"? It is very subtle for sure and if asked, I would say there's no texture there at all.


To me ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' glad2badad is proving an excellent point. The texture/overlay here is very subtle and certainly not taking away from the photographic nature of the image. Allow textures and overlays and if the voters think it overdone, they'll let you know one way or another. :)

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 00:18:08.
08/13/2008 01:53:47 PM · #165
bump
08/13/2008 04:04:11 PM · #166
*bumpity*
08/13/2008 04:07:05 PM · #167
Perhaps time for a poll on the subject?
08/13/2008 04:55:03 PM · #168
This is no different than making multiple exposure prints in the darkroom (ala Jerry Uelsmann)or shooting sandwiched slides in a slide duplicator. All of those things result in photographs.

Photography, in general, is not restricted to a literal representation of a moment in time.

08/13/2008 05:07:25 PM · #169
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

This is no different than making multiple exposure prints in the darkroom (ala Jerry Uelsmann)or shooting sandwiched slides in a slide duplicator. All of those things result in photographs.

Photography, in general, is not restricted to a literal representation of a moment in time.


True.

Maybe we should have a poll like:

1) Ban textures completely
2) Add challenges for expert freestyle editing
3) Add a new category which is advanced+ (includes textures)
4) Allow textures in advanced
08/13/2008 05:53:17 PM · #170
Originally posted by Mick:

I think digital photography and digital art are two different things. Digital photography requires a photograph from a digital camera. The result should look like a photograph. Digital art does not require a photograph. It might incorporate one, or even several photos, but they are not required. The result can look like anything the artist desires. It might even look exactly like a photo, but it would still be digital art. If a photographer edits a photo so much that it no longer resembles the original photo, then the result is digital art. Of course, this is only my opinion. Others no doubt have different opinions.

I don't think digital art is a bad thing. However, this place is called the Digital Photography Challenge, not the Digital Art Challenge. I think many of us would like DPC to keep its emphasis on photography. [snip]


First you say it's just your opinion and many others will disagree but then turn around and pretty much say your opinion should prevail in regards to what DPC should consider as photography. Obviously my opinion differs than yours. My opinion of digital art is much like that wikipedia link posted earler that clearly defines what it is. You use a highly subjective untestable requirement and I still don't know where your line is. Basically what you are saying is "I'll know it when I see it". No offense but that's the hallmark of the uninformed.

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 18:03:31.
08/13/2008 07:04:50 PM · #171
It must be time to put a vote to the DPC community. DPC is what the community here make it - within reason.

How would you vote?

1. Do not allow layers / textures
2. Allow layers / textures in some challenges (call the rule set Brenda if you wish - as long as we know what the rules are!)
3. Allow layers / textures in all challenges

I vote Brenda!

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 19:07:23.
08/13/2008 07:21:34 PM · #172
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

This is no different than making multiple exposure prints in the darkroom (ala Jerry Uelsmann)or shooting sandwiched slides in a slide duplicator. All of those things result in photographs.

Photography, in general, is not restricted to a literal representation of a moment in time.


True.

Maybe we should have a poll like:

1) Ban textures completely
2) Add challenges for expert freestyle editing
3) Add a new category which is advanced+ (includes textures)
4) Allow textures in advanced


I vote for number 3 and offer challenges in this category at least once a month in addition to the regular challenges currently running.

Message edited by author 2008-08-13 19:22:22.
08/13/2008 08:00:44 PM · #173
Vote Brenda!
08/13/2008 11:16:33 PM · #174
I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.
08/13/2008 11:28:51 PM · #175
Originally posted by Jutilda:

I think people are getting all weird about nothing. Have a free for all every now and then and it won't matter. I think the reason that "expert editing" was stopped was simply because it was too hard for SC to maintain, enforce and interpret their own rules.

And that it crossed the line into imagery/graphic type work that was far from the base of photography that this site is built on.
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