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08/14/2008 01:14:41 PM · #226
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Earlier in this thread (pre-Rapper/songwriter)...
Originally posted by posthumous:

... In "Advanced Editing" ban all textures and overlays. ...


so... are you calling me a hypocrite because I tried to compromise with you?

The rap song, btw, does not necessarily reflect the opinions of this station.


.. and just because some want to keep it out of the Advanced rules doesn't mean that it should be kept out altogether.
08/14/2008 01:19:35 PM · #227
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Earlier in this thread (pre-Rapper/songwriter)...
Originally posted by posthumous:

... In "Advanced Editing" ban all textures and overlays. ...


so... are you calling me a hypocrite because I tried to compromise with you?

Compromise - by bringing back Expert Editing? Actually, I also found it interesting that your "song" says "Let's talk about textures", yet you were one of the first to bring up the expert editing ruleset.

Originally posted by posthumous:

Bring back "Expert Editing" or call it "Extreme Editing" or whatever you want...


edit - typo.

Message edited by author 2008-08-14 13:22:01.
08/14/2008 01:23:01 PM · #228
Originally posted by posthumous:

Come on, how many guys you know make overlays?

Only the talented ones. ;-)
08/14/2008 01:33:55 PM · #229
I wanted to add my two cents, but now all my currency is worthless...

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Posthumous has rendered me...speechless!

;-)
08/14/2008 02:36:28 PM · #230
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Compromise - by bringing back Expert Editing?


Hell yes, it's a compromise. Do you not understand how having a ruleset that I like alongside a ruleset that you like is a compromise? I also want to bring back Minimal Editing. Basic and Advanced are my least favorite rulesets.

08/14/2008 03:56:14 PM · #231
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Earlier in this thread (pre-Rapper/songwriter)...
Originally posted by posthumous:

... In "Advanced Editing" ban all textures and overlays. ...


so... are you calling me a hypocrite because I tried to compromise with you?

The rap song, btw, does not necessarily reflect the opinions of this station.


.. and just because some want to keep it out of the Advanced rules doesn't mean that it should be kept out altogether.


Hear hear. I don't see why we can't all agree to this.


08/14/2008 04:13:45 PM · #232
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Earlier in this thread (pre-Rapper/songwriter)...
Originally posted by posthumous:

... In "Advanced Editing" ban all textures and overlays. ...


so... are you calling me a hypocrite because I tried to compromise with you?

The rap song, btw, does not necessarily reflect the opinions of this station.


.. and just because some want to keep it out of the Advanced rules doesn't mean that it should be kept out altogether.


Hear hear. I don't see why we can't all agree to this.


We've been trying. We don't want to change the Basic or Advanced rule sets. Maybe I, or other pro overlay peeps weren't clear enough about that? Not sure how we could have been more so.

A new rule set allowing the use of overlays along side the rule sets already in place would be super swell...we're not looking to replace anything at all. Anyone who doesn't like using overlays and textures need not enter such challenges or vote on said challenges...simple enough yes?

...word and peace out.
08/14/2008 07:37:52 PM · #233
Originally posted by RKT:

A new rule set allowing the use of overlays along side the rule sets already in place would be super swell...we're not looking to replace anything at all. Anyone who doesn't like using overlays and textures need not enter such challenges or vote on said challenges...simple enough yes?

Hmmm... maybe too simple. Here is the predictable whining opposing argument to this: "That's not fair - why should there be challenges that I am not interested in?! I pay good money to be a member, bla bla bla"

For some reason, some people feel they are entitled to have every challenge tailored to their preferences or circumstances.

Maybe I am being cynical. Personally, I am in favor of adding more variety and opportunity on the site. Additional rulesets, occasional freestyle challenges, whatever - I think we can spice it up and still maintain the things that should satisfy the purists.
08/14/2008 08:46:49 PM · #234
Ladies, all the ladies, louder now, help me out
Come on, all the ladies - let's talk about textures, all right
[repeat]

ALL RIGHT
ALL RIGHT
let's talk about textures

That is brilliant, posthumous!!!
08/14/2008 09:03:32 PM · #235
A long time ago, in these forums, there was a model of what the DPC home page looked like when the site was new, with updates as time went on to show how it evolved over the years. New challenges, new ways of doing business, new looks of every description. Much to my annoyance, I couldn't find the model, but it's undoubtedly still there somewhere.

My point is: DPC evolves. Making room for this, and other techniques, is simply part of that evolution.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' RKT and others are doing a fine job of carrying the standard on this one, and I'll do what I can to help wave the flag.
08/14/2008 09:33:00 PM · #236
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Compromise - by bringing back Expert Editing?


Hell yes, it's a compromise. Do you not understand how having a ruleset that I like alongside a ruleset that you like is a compromise? I also want to bring back Minimal Editing. Basic and Advanced are my least favorite rulesets.

Bringing back expert editing is not a compromise...expert editing was a blemish to this site and is best left to other sites that specialize in over the top photoshopping.

As others have pointed out, allowing texture overlays as a special event or special rule once in awhile seems to be the best solution.
08/14/2008 09:55:06 PM · #237
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Compromise - by bringing back Expert Editing?


Hell yes, it's a compromise. Do you not understand how having a ruleset that I like alongside a ruleset that you like is a compromise? I also want to bring back Minimal Editing. Basic and Advanced are my least favorite rulesets.

Bringing back expert editing is not a compromise...expert editing was a blemish to this site and is best left to other sites that specialize in over the top photoshopping.

As others have pointed out, allowing texture overlays as a special event or special rule once in awhile seems to be the best solution.


A blemish on the site? Oh goodness.

And no...not just as a special event or a special rule tacked on once in a while. Once a month would be rockin', with a new and fabulous rule set specific to those challenges. This would not be a detriment to DPC. Heck...I remember a previous post where someone stated they would actually renew their membership if we could move forward with this NEW and SEPARATE rule set. How could more paying members be a bad thing?
08/14/2008 10:22:17 PM · #238
New ruleset with regular challenges (whatever the frequency might be) seems to be the best way to go. Satisfies the texturizers, the smoothies can disregard them.
08/14/2008 10:28:13 PM · #239
Originally posted by glad2badad:

expert editing was a blemish to this site


and I see your true colors shining through
08/14/2008 10:56:37 PM · #240
please leave personalities out of it.

We sincerely want everyone's input. We have been grappling with this for literally years, now, like the OP said.

If it were an easy decision, or a clear-cut one, it would have been decided before now.

:/
08/14/2008 11:18:06 PM · #241
Originally posted by karmat:

If it were an easy decision, or a clear-cut one, it would have been decided before now.

:/


But you hobble us by not telling us your reasoning for your decisions. Why was Expert Editing removed? And Minimal Editing, for that matter?
08/14/2008 11:20:37 PM · #242

Whatever happened to the idea of having more polls to get a better idea of overall opinions, rather than just hearing a few very vocal ones?
08/15/2008 12:24:08 AM · #243
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by karmat:

If it were an easy decision, or a clear-cut one, it would have been decided before now.

:/


But you hobble us by not telling us your reasoning for your decisions. Why was Expert Editing removed? And Minimal Editing, for that matter?


Originally posted by langdon:

As we welcome in the new year together, I'm happy to introduce some major site improvements that will go into effect tonight. First and foremost, we've spent some time recently discussing both the Advanced Editing and Expert Editing rule sets. We weren't completely happy with how Expert panned out, and have spent some time taking the things we do like from Expert and adding them to Advanced. Mainly, combining multiple captures to allow for things like true HDR, noise reduction, and time-lapse photography. We have plans to revise Expert (and likely rename it) at a later date, so until then there won't be any Expert challenges. Hopefully though, with these changes to Advanced Editing, which also include entries sized at 720x720 @ 200kb, everyone will be quite busy for a bit.


from this thread

You know what I know.
08/15/2008 02:16:15 AM · #244
it seems this question of allowing textures gets asked once every couple of months and the SC needs to answer it once and for all until the merry go round comes our way again and we have this same discussion 2 months down the line.

Why not just have a poll on the start screen so people can bring it down to a democratic vote instead of this where it just ends up a mudslinging match between two opposing sides? I think it would have been a lot cleaner cut that way if ppl were just allowed to vote, and also be a much clearer indication for you of what the general concensus actually is.

You say if it were an easy decision, or a clear cut one it would have been decided... well give the decision to the members and see what they think- allow them to decide for you because you are not going to reach any conclusions based on what people say in this thread as its now resorted to bickering and ppl asking other members to "check the dictionary" and other witty quips.

You have the power to find a definitive answer within a week yet you haven't exercised it.
08/15/2008 03:08:42 AM · #245
For what it's worth my 2 cents is on the side of having a variety of challenges and let those who like one way of doing things enter the ones they like and ignore the ones they don't like. Bringing back minimal and expert are both fine. Heck, I wouldn't mind having one called "Anything-goes-be-as-over-the-top-as-you-like-knock-your-socks-off-with-photoshop-stack-as-many-images-as-you-like-there-are-no-rules-except-size-of-image". You might also have one called "Straight-out-of-the-camera-if-a-point-and-shoot-can't-do-it-neither-can-you". I'm obviously being facetious, but you get the idea. Choice is not a bad thing IMHO. I often skip the basic challenges in favor of the advanced ones. Just a matter of personal preference, but I'm comfortable having someone take the opposite point of view.
08/15/2008 08:56:57 AM · #246
Originally posted by Tez:

Why not just have a poll on the start screen so people can bring it down to a democratic vote instead of this where it just ends up a mudslinging match between two opposing sides?

We know that. The purpose of this thread was discussion, not decision (note the absence of SC opinions). Is there any significant difference between "real" surface textures and overlays, how do we define texture overlays vs. multiple exposures, etc. Part of this overlaps bigger issues like the image integrity vs. digital art debate, but we were only interested in opinions to help shape our own discussion and poll questions later.
08/15/2008 09:46:12 AM · #247
Originally posted by Tez:

it seems this question of allowing textures gets asked once every couple of months and the SC needs to answer it once and for all until the merry go round comes our way again and we have this same discussion 2 months down the line. ...


Every couple of months? I've been here nearly 4 years and have not seen this subject brought up repeatedly. Just to double-check (obviously can't see/read all forum activity) I ran a search on the forums going back to January 1, 2008. In that timeframe I found one thread that discussed using textures in a challenge in any form, and it was a weak conversation at best, with only 5 posts to it total.

Are Textures Allowed in Submissions?

With that being said, I did see where there is some interest in texture overlays, evidenced by the side challenge activity (along with self portraits, flowers, and B&W photography).
08/15/2008 12:17:45 PM · #248
Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by langdon:

As we welcome in the new year together, I'm happy to introduce some major site improvements that will go into effect tonight. First and foremost, we've spent some time recently discussing both the Advanced Editing and Expert Editing rule sets. We weren't completely happy with how Expert panned out, and have spent some time taking the things we do like from Expert and adding them to Advanced. Mainly, combining multiple captures to allow for things like true HDR, noise reduction, and time-lapse photography. We have plans to revise Expert (and likely rename it) at a later date, so until then there won't be any Expert challenges. Hopefully though, with these changes to Advanced Editing, which also include entries sized at 720x720 @ 200kb, everyone will be quite busy for a bit.


from this thread

You know what I know.


ah, sorry. I thought when langdon said "we weren't completely happy" and "we've spent some time recently discussing" he was referring to the SC. It was probably just the royal "we."

What confuses me is why not just be strict on Advanced Editing and bring back Expert Editing? I haven't seen any rational arguments against this solution.
08/15/2008 12:26:13 PM · #249
Originally posted by glad2badad:


Bringing back expert editing is not a compromise...expert editing was a blemish to this site and is best left to other sites that specialize in over the top photoshopping.


Photoshopping happens to be a major part of the photography field now. Yes, true photography edits less and sticks more to the actual capture. But digital technology has evolved the field. Having the occasional expert editing challenge here would be great. Other sites that focus on photoshopping don't focus on photography--many of those site's users use stock images. Here, its users taking photos and using digital skills to enhance their image. Look at ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' kiwiness--You can't tell me that he isn't a fantastic photographer, and his images are enhanced by his photoshop skills.

It may not be your cup of tea. So don't participate in that challenge, and don't vote. Just like for me, woody and ducky challenge is really lame, I only entered because I'm on a DPC Olympics team, but otherwise I would've stayed out.
08/15/2008 01:08:12 PM · #250
I have to admit to not reading a good portion of the middle of this debate (read the earlier posts and the ones on this page), but thought I'd jump in w/ my opion(s).

I think the idea of occasional challenges w/ unique rules (rather than a ruleset) is great. Maybe even w/ the subject of the shot left open (as in free studies). IOW - the rules pertain to just that challenge. So there could be a layers challenge, or a collage challenge, etc. And it would be spelled out in the rules that you could use up to X different shots taken during the challenge timeframe, or that textures need not have been taken during the timeframe, etc.

But I also believe that the old Minimal rules (or something like them) could/should be one of these "unique to this challenge rules" challenges. As could B/W, or Cyanotype, or halftone, monochrome, 8-bit, panorama (stitched), etc.
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