Scoring a wedding job - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

06/06/2008 12:04:16 PM · #1

I'm pretty new to Wedding photography, I've done two weddings (one back in Oct 06 and one recently in March 08). The shots from the first wedding are far below my current skill level, leaving me with only one real wedding as portfolio work. I just had a potential client contact me saying they would like to get together and see more of my work (on top of what is already posted on my website. They know about my lack of experience as I know this person through a friend.

I have access to professional equipment, I have a photo partner for weddings, but I'm still new to signing clients. How is this usually done if someone asks to see more work in person? Up until now I have only printed off two of my photos. I usually charge a little more as a base price on the wedding and just provide them with a cd of images they can print themselves (saves me the time and effort of running around getting prints). I did put together a pretty nice slideshow from the last wedding that I could show them, but other than that I'm kind of lost.

Hope someone can help me out.

PS. Where do people usually meet to do this? I don't have a studio, so I can't have people meet me there. Is this usually done at the client's house?

FocusPoint

XIAOMI Redmi Note 8 Pro

06/06/2008 12:12:23 PM · #2

Wow... excellent website and photos. All I can say is keep up the good work :)

Simms

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Sigma 70-200 /2.8 APO EX DG Macro HSM II

06/06/2008 01:12:43 PM · #3

Originally posted by LERtastic:

OK, I am gonna admit I didnt expect the work to be quite that good.. nice selection of images and good processing, not afraid to dump a photo because it has blur or a lot of noise. You have talent matey! (helps having a nice good looking couple as well)..

Good work!

Eyesup

Nikon D300

06/06/2008 01:19:19 PM · #4

LER,

Great stuff :) If there's anything I can do to give you a hand (blank contract, use of my living room, etc) let me know (my digits are the same). I've got a big screen that's great for showing photos :) my suggestion would be to find a time to sit with them, if not at you own place (which is perfectly fine) then at a Timmy's or something show them some of the stuff you've done (wedding or not it all shows your skill), talk to them about what they want give them your sales pitch and hopefully close the deal... confidence is key, don't let them think for an instance you're not confident in your ability to do what you say... You're a great photographer, and I know you'll do great. and like I said anyway I can help out let me know.

Sigma 70-200 /2.8 APO EX DG Macro HSM II

06/06/2008 04:16:23 PM · #5

You need to have a sales presentation figured out. Someone will be in control of the meeting - you or them. If you have a plan/agenda then you stand a chance of being in control. You NEED to be in control if you want to control the outcome - them signing a contract and giving you money.
So... there are certain things you need to know or want to know - date of course, but also locations as that will give you an idea of their budget (VFW vs Marriott hotel for example, limo or not, etc). Ask about their colors, dress, centerpieces, cake, number of bridesmaids, if they've been in weddings (and what they thought of the photography perhaps - what they DIDN'T like is more what you want to know but don't want to ask it like that).
Then talk albums. Yes, you said you don't do prints. You are a fool. A stupid fool destined to fail then. Sorry to be so blunt, well, rude about it. But that's what they are hiring a pro for - to do the WHOLE job, not just half. 75% of the profit from a wedding is in the album and prints! If you don't do these you will fail, long term. Also think of this - you give them an album/prints they then have something to show other people - to help sell you to more clients! A CD sucks - they'll no doubt be looking at the images on non-color corrected monitors so all the effort you put into your work is wasted. IF they print anything, there's a good chance they'll screw it up. Sharpening? I bet they never heard of it. I know they won't edit the images the same as you. And you can't edit every image you shoot of the off chance they'll print 2 or 3 of the 500 you give them.

You need to have something to give them when the leave, whether they sign or not. (In theory) You're the expert. It may be their first wedding - they have no clue what it takes to capture images - time, poses, lighting, setups, etc. You should know that, educate them, show them you know your craft and have confidence.

Eyesup

Nikon D300

06/06/2008 04:58:03 PM · #6

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

how do you always say what I was thinking so much better then I would have had I actually said it?! I guess that's experiance talking :)

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

06/06/2008 05:05:58 PM · #7

Originally posted by Eyesup:

how do you always say what I was thinking so much better then I would have had I actually said it?! I guess that's experiance talking :)

Saying it and doing it are sometimes not exactly the same thing! The first year I started rough, booking maybe 50% of my meetings and fielding questions regarding experience, backup gear, etc. I made some adjustments and figured out a sales talk and was motivated to get business and things turned around- no more questions regarding experience, etc and booking ratio went to 85-90%.
I've now diversified into other areas of photography and to an extent have gotten a bit complacent. Between that, raising prices, the economy and perhaps more competition from other studios that have started marketing wedding photography (instead of just seniors or studio work) things have slowed a bit inquiry wise. I have a meeting tonight, a referral form a wedding 3 months ago, so that is always a good thing. As long as I can fit their budget I should be golden. Yeah, pride goeth before the fall...

Citadel

Nikon D7500

06/06/2008 05:17:38 PM · #8

One thing I would point out about the web site is that it doesn't say where you live (That I saw anyways)

Looking at your profile here I see you are from Calgary but just having a quick reference to that in your about page would be useful. Just a thought...

Anyways, the photographer my fiancee and are using works out of her home so we met there for our first meeting. We had our last meeting at a coffee shop. (Just to go over the details etc.) A laptop with wireless might be one way to go if you want to meet your clients out in the community. Just my 2 cents from the consumer side of the fence

Mr_Pants

SiPix Blink

06/06/2008 05:17:57 PM · #9

I recently had a friend of ours contact us on behalf of a bride and groom-to be. They were looking for a wedding photographer. We all met up at our friends' house over dinner and I gave them a bit of a talk on what I could do for them and what I needed them to do in order to be able to get some good memories of the day. I took a cam and laptop with me and took a couple of quick snaps and showed them the simple Lightroom edits. I later found out that the bride-to-be was pretty adamant that she didn't want a photographer who wasn't a full-time professional. The impromptu photo session must have done the trick, though, as our friends told us the week following that the bride and groom definitely wanted me to shoot their wedding and that a further meeting (and dinner) would be set up. The couple have not yet been in direct contact, so I'm quite tempted to tell them to get lost when they do. After all, I'm an amateur in the original sense of the word and don't like to be messed around. Turning down paying work on a whim is not a luxury that a full-time professional can afford. I don't need this to fund what is, essentially, a hobby and source of pleasure.

LERtastic

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

06/06/2008 06:04:55 PM · #10

Ok, so I'm a stupid fool destined to fail. Do you find that insulting people on a regular basis helps them out, or does it usually lead to them not wanting to listen to you? I understand your point, and it makes perfect sense, but did you need to insult to get your point across? Oh, and that word you put in there: "sorry", just isn't true. Your not sorry for being rude, otherwise you would have stopped thousands of posts ago. I guess that's the risk you run with Prof_Fate trolling the DPC business forum.

With that being said, it looks like I should be making prints, so how does one go about making a nice professional album for potential clients to look at? What are the best/most common options around? How do you price albums/prints? Is it costs + 100% markup or something different?

I am meeting with this couple on Monday night so I have limited time. If I can't put together a nice album by then I'm not going to worry, but for the future I will still want a nice album to show potential clients.

Eyesup

Nikon D300

Sigma 70-200 /2.8 APO EX DG Macro HSM II

06/06/2008 06:10:46 PM · #11

Sent you a quick PM

mpeters

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

06/06/2008 06:18:03 PM · #12

A copy of Rangefinder magazine can be very helpful to locate different vendors who supply albums/prints/etc. Other companies such as albumsinc.com represent several different product lines.

Pricing--see what other photogs in your area charge. No use underselling yourself. It takes time to retouch, order, reorder, coordinate delivery/pickup with customer, collect $$, replace equipment, etc. People think they can pick up a 4x6 at Costco for 29 cents-why do you charge $5? Be upfront with the reasons why and your prices and your customers will be more prepared mentally and financially to pay up.

Most places will print sample albums discounted by 50%. I'm meeting a couple tomorrow and I usually show them a selection of prints in a portfolio style book as well as some different album options. Figure out what they like/want and quote them accordingly.

Simms

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

06/06/2008 08:58:26 PM · #13

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Then talk albums. Yes, you said you don't do prints. You are a fool. A stupid fool destined to fail then. Sorry to be so blunt, well, rude about it. But that's what they are hiring a pro for - to do the WHOLE job, not just half. 75% of the profit from a wedding is in the album and prints!

LOL!!

75% of the profit is from albums & prints?? really. I guess it depends on the quality of Album one uses.. personally I use Queensberry, probably one of the most expensive on the market and probably the best. I guess you could cut costs and go for Graphistudio or even worse, Asuka. I guess they would be OK for cheapy budget weddings.

Actually I would say 50% of my clients go for the DVD package.. works good for me, I make the most money on that package, so if they dont want an album thats fine by me, less work involved and once the DVD has been sent out then job done. I dont even offer prints, I dont have time for all that nonsense. am I destined to fail?

Personally I think you was quite insulting to LERTastic, in fact, you talk about destined to fail..you might want to sort your website out a bit. looks a bit tatty mate. also mention what albums you actually sell.

Glass houses mate.. glass houses..

actually I'd go as far as saying nothing on your website really strikes me as stunning.. Anyway Mr Trump, I'll let you get back to insulting people.

Message edited by author 2008-06-06 21:06:41.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

06/06/2008 09:38:33 PM · #14

Prof Fate, sometimes I see the show Bridezilla and think of you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

06/06/2008 11:27:29 PM · #15

Originally posted by LERtastic:

I am direct and no nonsense in my responses. You want cuddles and hugs? Go see your mommy. If I know something to be a bad idea I'm going to speak up. You can heed my advice or not, that's your choice. I'm not pulling this info out my a-- or saying it to discourage you or anyone else. Taking pictures for money is fun, but it's also a business. And 50% of all small businesses fail. Letting the customer you worked so hard to get walk away with your money still in their pocket because you failed to offer them something they plan to buy anyway is a bad business plan.

Albums - there are 3 basic types - slip in (print and pages slip into a 'cover'). this is old school but some brides like it. flush mount - the print is glued to the page, either by you or the album company (depends on teh company, model of book, etc). The last is a coffee table book - just like at Barnes and Noble - hard cover with paper pages. this is the least costly, but often appears as such.

10x10 20 or 30 sides are probably the most common/popular. Most these days are collage/montage style albums as opposed to teh old 1 to 4 prints on page all matted/mounted. Figure 3.5 images / page on average, so a 20 side book will hold 60-70 images max unless you want all thumbnails. Layout can be done by someone else (most album companies offer the service) or you can do it on PS or any of a number of software packages you can buy.Most companies will give you a discount (25-50%) on studio sample albums, as well as supplying cover material samples.

To meet, sell, prep, shoot, edit, backup and get to the proof stage of a wedding takes some 15 hours or so. To design an album takes 5 hours (including image editing). You can get as much for the album as you do for all the rest of the job. And you can often sell a 'companion' album (parents album, clone album) - the same album but in a small size. a 30 side 5x5 in non-leather can be had for $75 and there is no design time, and sold for $250 or more - easy add on sale!
As for pics on DVD...I sell lo res ($175) or hi-res with printing rights ($595). Many people balk at the hi res price...but it's $1/photo or pretty close. Back in the film days an exposure was said to cost $1 - just the film and processing. So IMO that's cheap! And they can't buy either without an album.

06/06/2008 11:43:35 PM · #16

Originally posted by Simms:

75% of the profit is from albums & prints?? really. I guess it depends on the quality of Album one uses.. personally I use Queensberry, probably one of the most expensive on the market and probably the best. I guess you could cut costs and go for Graphistudio or even worse, Asuka. I guess they would be OK for cheapy budget weddings.

Actually I would say 50% of my clients go for the DVD package.. works good for me, I make the most money on that package, so if they dont want an album thats fine by me, less work involved and once the DVD has been sent out then job done. I dont even offer prints, I dont have time for all that nonsense. am I destined to fail?

Personally I think you was quite insulting to LERTastic, in fact, you talk about destined to fail..you might want to sort your website out a bit. looks a bit tatty mate. also mention what albums you actually sell.

Glass houses mate.. glass houses..

actually I'd go as far as saying nothing on your website really strikes me as stunning.. Anyway Mr Trump, I'll let you get back to insulting people.

album costs me $300 and 5 hours of time, takes 1 $1000 computer and a $300 software package. I get $1000 or more for that. $700 for 5 hours of work.

a wedding takes 8 hours to shoot and 5 hours to cull the bad and edit into proofs,backup, convert from RAW, upload to a proof website, etc. I have to prep for that wedding, travel there and back (in my $25,000 car that east $4/gallon gas). Pay an assistant and slug about with $15,000 in camera gear. Then use the $1000 computer and $700 software to edit the images. 13 hours for what, $900 to $1000? My costs are $100 for an assistant and $40 in gas - and I need insurance on gear and liability insurance too for this (or I'm a fool for not having it and my momma didn't raise no fools). So I net $750 for 13 hours and much higher investment in tools.

You tell me which is more profitable!
And i sell prints, save teh date cards, thank you cards, framed images - stuff these folks want anyway and if I don't sell it someone else will.

Business 101: it costs more to get a new customer to sell to that to sell more to a customer you already have. Your average sale is VERY important. McDonalds "You want fries or apple pie with that?" made them millions. The same thing applies to the photography business. If you can't get more for an album that you do a CD you're doing something very wrong. Even if you do a simple 20 side 8x10 albums (product cost can be under $100 for that) you should be able to triple your $100 investment in the materials if not a lot more. And make happier clients.

But if your selling on price alone then you're probably selling to clients that don't appreciate photography. You stated you like selling just the CD...because your lazy. (Yeah, i paraphrased what you said, but that's how I read it). Lazy people won't succeed in self employement - there's too much work involved in success.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 200-500mm f/5.6E ED VR

06/06/2008 11:45:55 PM · #17

Originally posted by L2:

Prof Fate, sometimes I see the show Bridezilla and think of you and laugh and laugh and laugh.

Reality TV is for those people that don't have a life of their own. Quit watching and start doing!

Elliottjms

06/06/2008 11:54:59 PM · #18

I think you all have Fate wrong. The point is not the DVD or Album its making a decision to make money capturing images and doing it with Gusto. The talent and desire is there so jumping in with both feet now is not such a bad suggestion. Rude? I think not Fate is laying it all out below kindly giving us his experience. Read between the lines and you will see a weath of experience coming your way.

jmlelii

Nikon D850

06/07/2008 12:15:17 AM · #19

Prof fate is not at all rude. I commend him for not sugar coating. A lot of people think it is easy to make money using your camera, however often he points out how much money it takes to stay in business.

What happens if you do this wedding, and you have your tripod out, and one of the guests trips over your tripod. They sue you, you have no insurance, nor are you an LLC, so not only do they take your money, they get some of your other valuables because you have to pay somehow.

If you are thinking about starting a photography business, you seriously need to consider Prof Fates words of advice.

06/07/2008 12:23:17 AM · #20

Just when the tar started boiling and folks were arriving with the feathers! Thanks for your support.

Too many people see easy money shooting a wedding or two. $1000 for a few hours on a saturday, doing what you'd probably do for free anyway?!? YEAH baby! But taking that occasional opportunity and turning it into a profitable business is a completely different thing. My background isn't photography - it's business. And all businesses have things in common - money, accounting, advertising, investment, etc. For the most part what the business does isn't important as balancing the books at the end of the month is the same for a bar, laundromat, steel fabricator, etc. If you don't bring in more than it costs you you will not be in business for long. Running a part time home based business 'under the radar' can work for awhile, and looks to be profitable as many of the real costs are hidden. Office space? spare bedroom. Utilities? part of what you pay anyway. Computer, camera? You've already got those.

Taking it to the next level - a real business that can support itself, and you too, is a whole 'nother ballgame entirely. My advice is directed toward that end. It comes from a college education in business, 20+ years working for small and family run businesses, 4 years of running my own photography business started from scratch, and a great deal of research on the photography business. I've talked to self made millionaire photographers about what they did to get to where they are. They give common answers to my questions - it could be coincidence or could be the path to success in the photography business. I'm going with the latter. I can invent it all myself, or copy the methods that have made them rich and respected. I can listen and learn from them or claim they're rude and such and go my own way. I have seen my business grow - May's revenues exceeded all of 2006. My growth is in the 100%+ a year for 4 straight years. I may not have all the answers, but my answers come from experience - mine and others. They are answers that have been proven to work.

Life is short so I don't bother sugar coating all my answers. And for that I do apologize. But I bet you will remember my advice.

Message edited by author 2008-06-07 00:26:46.

LERtastic

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

06/07/2008 12:36:41 AM · #21

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

You seem to think that it's ok to insult someone as long as you follow it with advice.

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

Yes, you said you don't do prints. You are a fool. A stupid fool destined to fail then. Sorry to be so blunt, well, rude about it.

Would it not have been just as easy to have written:

"Yes, you said you don't do prints, you should be."

I guess your mommy never taught you about tact.

I appreciate your advice, I honestly do, what I don't appreciate is people calling me a fool. So next time I ask for advice, and you have some, keep the insults to yourself, or just don't post.

Simms

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Voigtlander Ultron 21mm f1.8

06/07/2008 04:32:08 AM · #22

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

The time spent taking the photos is FAR more profitable than the albums.. I really cant believe you can be that stupid.. If you didn't have the raw materials to work from, that is, the photos, you would not be able to create the album or the prints, so the time spent taking the photos and the money earned contributes to the overall finished product. Or do you not put photos in your album? You seem to of separated the two lines of income, but the album would be worthless without actually taking the shots. Think about it, you might surprise yourself.

Originally posted by Prof_Fate:

And i sell prints, save teh date cards, thank you cards, framed images - stuff these folks want anyway and if I don't sell it someone else will.

Business 101: it costs more to get a new customer to sell to that to sell more to a customer you already have. Your average sale is VERY important. McDonalds "You want fries or apple pie with that?" made them millions. The same thing applies to the photography business. If you can't get more for an album that you do a CD you're doing something very wrong. Even if you do a simple 20 side 8x10 albums (product cost can be under $100 for that) you should be able to triple your $100 investment in the materials if not a lot more. And make happier clients.

But if your selling on price alone then you're probably selling to clients that don't appreciate photography. You stated you like selling just the CD...because your lazy. (Yeah, i paraphrased what you said, but that's how I read it). Lazy people won't succeed in self employment - there's too much work involved in success.

OK, my clients come to me and pay my (rather high) prices because they want pretty pictures, thats it at the basest level. Pretty pictures is what I do best.. not just snap shots, really nice images that capture moments. However, I still pride myself on the albums I supply, in fact its my 2nd biggest selling point over the images. However, the reason I like clients buying my DVD package is because there is less time involved and the pay back is handsome.. dont get me wrong, the payback for one of my album packages far outweighs the profits from the DVD package, but at this time in my life, there simply isn't enough time in my day so any hours I can free up are a godsend. However, don't call me lazy, because that is something I certainly am not.

However, as far as I am concerned you was incredibly insulting to LERtastic for no good reason, the guy asked a series of genuine questions and you had to shoot him down in flames, when your clients ask you `dumb` questions do you reply with the same arrogance and rudeness?? no, I didn't think so, we can all be brave behind a keyboard. Are you telling me when you started you went out and purchased the best equipment off the cuff. NO, exactly.. one could say say to you that you are a dumbass for not using a pro-body to do your pro work. but that would be rude and uncalled for. Actually, at the last London GTG your name actually cropped up when we was talking about weddings, although it might be best not to repeat what was said..

However, another Business 101 for you.. image is everything.. sort out your website, seriously, you are not doing yourself any favours with your current design.

MAK

Leica M Monochrom

06/07/2008 04:48:13 AM · #23

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA too funny, I needed a good laugh today, Well said Simms, the man is rude, you are right to put him back in his place.

ETA - I just had a look at both websites (prof fate and LERtastic) No contest! LERtastic, you do great work, nice comp, editing, and your website is presented nicely too. Congratulations, keep it up.

Message edited by author 2008-06-07 04:54:54.

06/07/2008 10:32:52 AM · #24

Originally posted by Simms:

Basic math my man
Album: 5 hours gives you $700. You need $1300 in gear to do it. $140 an hour.
Photography: 13 hours gives you $750. You need THOUSANDS in gear to do it, plus a car. $58 an hour.

In a 40 hour week I can do 8 albums, you can shoot 3 weddings. I make $5600 you make $1350.

My point is that if you do not sell albums you are not going to be profitable and make a living at wedding photography. Fully half your profit is in the album. There is more profit in prints, parent albums, Save the Date cards, etc. Hence my off the cuff statement that 75% of the profit in wedding photography is in selling products, not in shooting the weddings.

Originally posted by Simms:

If you have more work that you can handle the solution is either to hire help / outsource some stuff or raise prices. It's a question often asked after a year or 2 in the biz - when to raise prices. If you have a business plan (and you should) then you know how many weddings you need to book at what price for the year. When you book 80% of that raise your prices. If you're booking 85% or more of your meetings, raise your prices. Shoot 2 less weddings but make everyone buy an album - it's probably just as much revenue overall and less work in the end.

Originally posted by Simms:

However, as far as I am concerned you was incredibly insulting to LERtastic for no good reason, the guy asked a series of genuine questions and you had to shoot him down in flames, when your clients ask you `dumb` questions do you reply with the same arrogance and rudeness?? no, I didn't think so, we can all be brave behind a keyboard. Are you telling me when you started you went out and purchased the best equipment off the cuff. NO, exactly.. one could say say to you that you are a dumbass for not using a pro-body to do your pro work. but that would be rude and uncalled for. Actually, at the last London GTG your name actually cropped up when we was talking about weddings, although it might be best not to repeat what was said.

Do I have opinions, attitude and ego? Yep. I don't think anyone that is successful or self made can be such without them. Do I have 1D bodies? No, not yet. Compared to a 30D I feel they would be a better investment, but the 40D is 90% there (compared to 1D3/5D RAW files, focus, DR, etc). I have been moving to L glass this year, and 1D bodies next year. I've seen the images improve with better glass - better focus, better color/contrast, etc. So yeah, I've preached that gear matters. All teh top photogs shoot the best gear. Could be cause they're rich and have nothing better to do with their money or could be gear makes a difference. Based on some photogs that are at the top that barely understand the gear and can't talk tech the reasons isn't the former. One can say all day long gear doesn't make the photographer, but it does make the photograph. I bring a lot of gear and experience to a wedding shoot. 3 bodies and many lenses, flash, etc. I've seen what can happen. I've seen a tamron vs canon, 3.5-5.6 vs 2.8 lenses in action. I'll be the first to say you need $20,000 to start a wedding photography business on the low end, and $50,000 on the high end. I understand how debt can be your friend and let you grown your business faster than on the revenue stream alone. Glass makes a bigger difference than bodies. 2 40D bodies can be had for $1880 right now. 2 1D3s are over $8000. IMO until you have a good selection of L glass you're better off with 40Ds than 1D3 and tamron lenses. The $6000 difference there will get you the canon glass you need to shoot weddings, well, like a pro. Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

Originally posted by Simms:

However, another Business 101 for you.. image is everything.. sort out your website, seriously, you are not doing
yourself any favours with your current design.

I don't disaagree. Perhaps I should take my own advice and outsource it as I don't have the time to work on it much - so I guess that means it's working well enough to keep me too busy :D . I have a test mule in the wings. I'm working on some Flash bits. (we can talk about website theory another time) Compared to most of my local competition my site is better, or was a year ago at the last update. It's amazing how quickly things change if you don't keep an eye out just about every week! The two biggest photogs around me don't even have websites - googling does not bring them up at all. They've got main street studios, shoot lots of seniors, sports, schools, proms and more. You don't need a website to succeed. It helps and is cheap compared to most advertising alternatives. Having a site and being able to be found on the net are not the same thing. Google "beaver pa wedding photography" or "senior photography beaver pa" or "senior pictures beaver pa" or "wedding photography beaver pa" (photography or photographer both work) and I come up on the first set of results multiple times, bad website or no. My competition doesn't (maybe one here or there, but I know my who my competition and what their sites look like). Ugly ad or no ad? I'll take ugly everytime.

BTW, while DPC is a nice place, the internet, the world, is not a nice place. If a comment or two from me hurt your feelings then your're gonna have a real hard time earning a living in photography and you certainly won't be happy. One pissed off bride or MOB or some a-hole DJ (and there are quite a few) and you're gonna fold up and blow away. You will never make everyone happy and not all your images will be loved and liked and cherished. Professional photography is about pictures - pictures of dead presidents. The best artist doesn't win, the best business man does. You can make a mona lisa but if you give it on a CD for free the guy that makes the school picture and gets $50 is gonna be around in 5 years and you will not. Sad, unfair? Yep, but true.

Message edited by author 2008-06-07 10:41:51.

doctornick

Apple iPhone 13 Pro