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03/25/2004 06:09:20 PM · #26
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Zeissman:

I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide.

North America
South America (less thoroughly)


so true. yet allmost erased from main stream US history the depth of that truth.


The settlement of the US was a war for land. Native Americans also practiced genocide. The was the Christian Fundamatalist group that that was behind this. Truthfully, if you can point me to some resources that showed that preachers in the US were quoting scripture to justify the killing of native americans, or that the religious right was somehow behind this, I would love to learn about this.

Now, I am not suggesting that no one ever used the excuse of a "divine right" or that the natives were "pegan" as an excuse, but that is different to me than being promised trips to heavan if you kill yourself while killing infidels.

Religion has been used as an excuse or a divider for wars, but there are usually bigger issues at stake.
03/25/2004 06:39:17 PM · #27
This doesn't change the fact that Communism = extreme left and Fascism = extreme right. Both ideologies have elements of government control - as does EVERY political system. Neither are liberal democracies. Liberalism is considered to be in the middle, contrary to some US conservatives who mistakenly place Liberalism at the far left.

Originally posted by Zeissman:

2. fas·cist (plural fas·cists) or Fas·cist supporter of fascism: somebody who supports or advocates a system of government characterized by dictatorship, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism

Hmmm, sounds just like the USSR, China, Cuba, and North Korea to me.

1. Com·mu·nism: any system of government in which a single, usually totalitarian, party holds power, and the state controls the economy


Originally posted by jimmythefish:

Hitler a communist? Umm...yeah that's a good one. He was a fascist, which is basically the polar opposite of communism on the political spectrum.

Originally posted by Zeissman:

I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.
03/25/2004 06:50:13 PM · #28
Originally posted by Zeissman:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

It's is truly amazing how popular genocide is among fundamentalists of every persuasion.

"I realize that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that."

--Tom Lehrer, 1965


Actually, it is not.

I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


The Inquisition?

-Terry
03/25/2004 07:32:43 PM · #29
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by Zeissman:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

It's is truly amazing how popular genocide is among fundamentalists of every persuasion.

"I realize that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that."

--Tom Lehrer, 1965


Actually, it is not.

I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


The Inquisition?

-Terry


The inquisition was not genocide
03/25/2004 07:42:02 PM · #30
Originally posted by Zeissman:

Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by Zeissman:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

It's is truly amazing how popular genocide is among fundamentalists of every persuasion.

"I realize that there are people who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that."

--Tom Lehrer, 1965


Actually, it is not.

I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


The Inquisition?

-Terry


The inquisition was not genocide


Convert or die? Sounds that way to me. How about the Crusades then?

-Terry
03/25/2004 07:42:54 PM · #31
Originally posted by Zeissman:



I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2788069.stm

Is a Pastor being convicted of assisting in the murder of over 800,000, genocide ? The UN seem to think that this modern Christian minister was commiting Genocide. Do you need more examples ?

I think someone already posted this, but the entire idea of Fundamentalist religion started in the US, by Christians.

Message edited by author 2004-03-25 19:43:25.
03/25/2004 07:50:39 PM · #32
Originally posted by Zeissman:



I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"

Message edited by author 2004-03-25 19:51:29.
03/25/2004 07:54:55 PM · #33
Originally posted by Zeissman:



The inquisition was not genocide


What the hell whas it then? Picknick? In my opinion where 100's of people die regardless of theyr innocence because of some ideology that's genocide.

And about your definition on communism, I whas born behind the iron courtain and lived it for exacly half my life and it would be good if your deffinition were all there whas to it. There are so many other important things to it I won't even bother trying to name a few, I'm sure nobody who haven't lived it would ever understand anything. If you would of said Communism is a system where those in power artificialy control everything I might agree, but to refer only to economy it's just probably the smallest and most insignifian part of it. As everything in this world it even had it's good parts (ofcourse i'd never want it back under any circumstances) and what you sayd that those in power control everything including economy applyes verry well to democratic systems too even if it wares a mask of freedom. It's just how I feel after seeing both with my own eyes. I would say for me the most signifiant bad parts of the communism whas the lack of freedom, complete censore, state owing everything, you had no right to own your own field, a business of your own nothing. People were turned against eachother so the system had years and eyes everywhere, and the fact that they were most afraid of intelectuals and people with high studies and inteligence constantly brought stupid people forward.

All these ofcourse has nothing to do with the subject of this topic. Nazzi maybe but communism had nothing to do with racial purification. May be the only bad thing they did not care for.

Message edited by author 2004-03-25 20:08:21.
03/25/2004 08:08:08 PM · #34
A perfect example of why threads like this should go in "rant", which I can block out.

Fascism=communism? Christians never having committed genocide? Good gosh, man. Some folks really, really like to believe the worst of others and the best of themselves.
03/25/2004 08:10:25 PM · #35
Well I think discussions like this are always good, it's always good to learn from eachother, but I can't find it's place on a photograpy forum.
03/25/2004 08:14:24 PM · #36
Agreed. I did not notice that it was not in rant. I'm moving it now... my apologies for not catching that sooner.
03/25/2004 08:33:04 PM · #37
Originally posted by Gordon:


//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2788069.stm

Is a Pastor being convicted of assisting in the murder of over 800,000, genocide ? The UN seem to think that this modern Christian minister was commiting Genocide. Do you need more examples ?

I think someone already posted this, but the entire idea of Fundamentalist religion started in the US, by Christians.


I know this will come across as splitting hairs, but there's two problems with this example (at least, based on the information in that aritcle, which may be incomplete):

1 - I don't see any evidence that he did it "in the name of Christianity/God/religion". My understanding of Rwanda was that it was an ethnic or tribal conflict, not religious.
2 - Its not clear to me, but it didn't seem that he was involved in the 800,000 deaths and/or the genocide as a whole, but in a particular incident. I didn't see an indication, but it sounded like his actions involved maybe hundreds, but not hundreds of thousands.

I don't mention this to excuse this guy in any way. It was just my interpretation of the original question/challenge as being to identify anyone conducting genocide in the name of, or under the banner of, Christianity or Judaism.
03/25/2004 09:26:09 PM · #38
Originally posted by ScottK:

Originally posted by Gordon:


//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2788069.stm

Is a Pastor being convicted of assisting in the murder of over 800,000, genocide ? The UN seem to think that this modern Christian minister was commiting Genocide. Do you need more examples ?

I think someone already posted this, but the entire idea of Fundamentalist religion started in the US, by Christians.


I know this will come across as splitting hairs, but there's two problems with this example (at least, based on the information in that aritcle, which may be incomplete):

1 - I don't see any evidence that he did it "in the name of Christianity/God/religion". My understanding of Rwanda was that it was an ethnic or tribal conflict, not religious.
2 - Its not clear to me, but it didn't seem that he was involved in the 800,000 deaths and/or the genocide as a whole, but in a particular incident. I didn't see an indication, but it sounded like his actions involved maybe hundreds, but not hundreds of thousands.

I don't mention this to excuse this guy in any way. It was just my interpretation of the original question/challenge as being to identify anyone conducting genocide in the name of, or under the banner of, Christianity or Judaism.


It is spliting hairs.

The question was
"I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. "

The fact that UN seem to think this particular Pastor is guilty of genocide seems pretty self-evident.
03/25/2004 09:28:57 PM · #39
Originally posted by jimmythefish:

Hitler a communist? Umm...yeah that's a good one. He was a fascist, which is basically the polar opposite of communism on the political spectrum.

Originally posted by Zeissman:

I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


Hitler certainly wasn't communist, and hated communists probably as much as he hated Jews - they were one of his first targets. On the other hand, viewing communists and fascists as polar opposites is actually not quite on the mark either. As you move "right" or "left" on the political spectrum, you eventually move to more and more government control and ultimately totalitarianism. So, what Zeissman was saying does have some validity. A Poli-Sci professor I had in college (and a liberal at that) always said the better to view the political spectrum was not as a line, but as a circle. Whichever direction you go, they both end up at totalitarian dictatorships.
03/25/2004 09:30:37 PM · #40
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Zeissman:



I would like to see one account of modern Christians or Jews committing Genocide. Hitler was not a Christian. He did not like religion at all. He was basically of the communist mindset.


"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf"


Adolf Hitler - Christian, Atheist, or Neither?
03/25/2004 09:42:42 PM · #41
Originally posted by ScottK:

On the other hand, viewing communists and fascists as polar opposites is actually not quite on the mark either. As you move "right" or "left" on the political spectrum, you eventually move to more and more government control and ultimately totalitarianism. So, what Zeissman was saying does have some validity. A Poli-Sci professor I had in college (and a liberal at that) always said the better to view the political spectrum was not as a line, but as a circle. Whichever direction you go, they both end up at totalitarian dictatorships.


Two poles? A line? A circle? The Cartesian plane?

A continuum i'd say. You can't capture (political) ideas so simply, but it sure makes televised debates easier.
03/25/2004 09:55:47 PM · #42
More links:

A stupid question (some interesting content regarding Christian culpability)

Religious Martyrs

Maybe all religions go through the same teething pains. I sure don't want to be around when the Scientologists get to hatin'.
03/25/2004 10:00:41 PM · #43
Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Originally posted by ScottK:

On the other hand, viewing communists and fascists as polar opposites is actually not quite on the mark either. As you move "right" or "left" on the political spectrum, you eventually move to more and more government control and ultimately totalitarianism. So, what Zeissman was saying does have some validity. A Poli-Sci professor I had in college (and a liberal at that) always said the better to view the political spectrum was not as a line, but as a circle. Whichever direction you go, they both end up at totalitarian dictatorships.


Two poles? A line? A circle? The Cartesian plane?

A continuum i'd say. You can't capture (political) ideas so simply, but it sure makes televised debates easier.


Excellent. Even as I posted that, I was thinking that while the circle analogy was better than a line, at least for this comparison, it was still inadequate. I'm off to puruse that link. Thanks!
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