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04/29/2008 03:04:06 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oddly, she doesn't see people like Miley Cyrus as role models any more than she believes that the Grand Theft Auto Play Station games are real.
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To each their own, although I would assume that every parent at least worries about some insidious effect that things like GTA exert on their kids.
My kids don't watch a ton of TV. We have basic, basic cable (read: good reception for networks) and so when they watch they are usually watching some kids show on PBS. Caden is going on eight now. Interestingly he doesn't clamor too much for "stuff" compared to his peers. There isn't some flavor-of-the-week toy he has to have and begs for. During the football season I upgraded the cable for three months (they had a deal) and this had the added "bonus" of the kids getting to watch Disney channel and Nick etc. By the end of the three months there was a noticeable change and Caden now had things he "needed". Would anybody consider commercials to be "bad" in some scary sense of too violent or sexy or whatnot? Not likely. Can they still exert a slow, but real effect on kids minds? Boy, while I believed it to begin with, I certainly believe it now. Now take that principle and apply it to hyperviolence and hypersexuality. How could it not exert an influence over time?
Message edited by author 2008-04-29 15:05:07.
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04/29/2008 03:23:33 PM · #102 |
I grew up in a community where TV was verboten--though at the time I didn't really know what I was missing. Now I'm the guy with the dumb look on my face when someone talks about the Cosby show or Dukes of Hazzard. ;) The main benefit I gained from this situation? IMO the reason I love to read is directly related to the lack of TV in my house as a child.
We too are a basic cable family and our 3 yr old really enjoys anything we will let him watch. Curious George/Bob the builder/etc. I wholeheartedly concur with Doc regardings TV's/movies steady influence on our thinking(not just kids). Garbage in-garbage out.
I saw the write-up on GTA yesterday- To say that it has minimal affect on real, everyday violence is to bury ones head to the neck. It's an easy target, as is rap music, but there are plenty of other less extreme culprits which we deal with regularly. |
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04/29/2008 03:34:21 PM · #103 |
I looked at a few of her pictures I have not looked at all of them or the millions of google entries for Hanna Montana on the internet.
I think the Liebovitz photo, to use her words, and I would agree, is a "classic" portrait "very beautiful" - I would add dignified, in as much as this youthful 15 year old can project, and unlike the multitude of garish, commercial pop renderings one encounters.
I found the Liebovitz portrait to offer no offense. Published in Vanity Fair or privately placed in a family album, it is a wonderful picture. It is a distinct high point for Miley, a summation & clarification of the hodgepodge, provides cleansing of other images. It appears to engage the child's personality to the viewer, only in a way Liebovitz can reveal. The target for societal or parental moral comment is not Liebovitz, nor this portrait - Dr Achoo chooses the wrong picture to make his point - it is the other half a million fotos of Hanna Montana which are degrading. |
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04/29/2008 03:58:45 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
I grew up in a community where TV was verboten--though at the time I didn't really know what I was missing. Now I'm the guy with the dumb look on my face when someone talks about the Cosby show or Dukes of Hazzard. ;) The main benefit I gained from this situation? IMO the reason I love to read is directly related to the lack of TV in my house as a child. |
I was never restricted from TV, yet I've been a voracious reader my entire life.
We were always encouraged as kids to expand our knowledge in any and all manner.
Originally posted by mpeters:
We too are a basic cable family and our 3 yr old really enjoys anything we will let him watch. Curious George/Bob the builder/etc. I wholeheartedly concur with Doc regardings TV's/movies steady influence on our thinking(not just kids). Garbage in-garbage out. |
My daughter could read and spell before she hit kindergarten.......she has also traveled and been exposed to much of the beauty and not-so-beautiful in life through travel and life with unusual older parents. She's also an only child, so she's subject to more intense attention than one of many.
Originally posted by mpeters:
I saw the write-up on GTA yesterday- To say that it has minimal affect on real, everyday violence is to bury ones head to the neck. It's an easy target, as is rap music, but there are plenty of other less extreme culprits which we deal with regularly. |
Write-up? Less extreme culprits?
So you pretty much have no first-hand experience with the subject?
Then how can you formulate any honest and informed opinion?
Bury one's head?????
Pretty strong point of view if you haven't seen it.
I'll take my first hand experience with it, and my, and my daughter's good sense to see that it's just a game, and a cartoon game at that.
Remember when the doomsayers were disturbed at the excess violence demonstrated by/at Wile E. Coyote?
Oh, and I watch virtually no television at all these days. I just waste my spare time here........and love it!
Ya picks yer poison.....8>)
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04/29/2008 04:28:24 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oddly, she doesn't see people like Miley Cyrus as role models any more than she believes that the Grand Theft Auto Play Station games are real.
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To each their own, although I would assume that every parent at least worries about some insidious effect that things like GTA exert on their kids. |
If they do, I'd ask what they are doing letting their kids play games rated for 18+ audiences ? I suppose that's similar to the insidious effect that watching 18+ movies, drinking all night in clubs, smoking and gambling in casinos has on their kids too. |
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04/29/2008 05:08:34 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oddly, she doesn't see people like Miley Cyrus as role models any more than she believes that the Grand Theft Auto Play Station games are real.
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Originally posted by DrAchoo:
To each their own, although I would assume that every parent at least worries about some insidious effect that things like GTA exert on their kids. |
Originally posted by Gordon:
If they do, I'd ask what they are doing letting their kids play games rated for 18+ audiences ? I suppose that's similar to the insidious effect that watching 18+ movies, drinking all night in clubs, smoking and gambling in casinos has on their kids too. |
Yeah......I kinda had that attitude when my kid's second grade teacher had her correcting the other kids' tests.
But she's always been bright and very down-to-earth, and truth be told, one heck of a lot more sensible than either I or my wife.
My daughter has NONE of my bad habits and/or judgement.
Kinda why I believe in a good and merciful God......8>)
If I had gotten the daughter I deserved, she'd have horns and fangs......and probably have been in jail at least once by now.
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04/29/2008 05:52:09 PM · #107 |
I'm with Jason and Mark (and others) on this ... good thread.
And personally, I saw the Liebovitz program regarding her shooting the queen and I didn't think she showed the queen any respect at all. She just kept trying to get her to do things she wasn't comfortable with. She even had to apologize after the shoot. Annie's famous enough to have made a stand in this case without hurting her career one bit ... she should have.
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04/29/2008 05:56:04 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by hopper:
Annie's famous enough to have made a stand in this case without hurting her career one bit ... she should have. |
Maybe she did. Maybe you are looking at it.
She's stood by the pictures several times since this started too. |
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04/29/2008 06:32:13 PM · #109 |
Just curious on this one:
"To prove the point, can anybody name five 18-25 year old female role models who are not known for their beauty?"
Can anyone name five 18-25 year old male role models who aren't known for their beauty? If you run a list of 20 sports figures, make sure they're ugly. And if your list is comprised mostly of people that I've heard of then you probably have the wrong idea of who you should be looking up to.
As for the photo, I think it makes this girl look younger than 15 actually and in no way sexual, unless you're a pedophile. I like the lighting and muted colors, makes her look like a vulnerable little girl.
Message edited by author 2008-04-29 18:33:19. |
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04/29/2008 07:04:21 PM · #110 |
Let's forget about the "star" aspect of these photo's...the question is:
Would you let your 15 year old daughter pose nude (covered by the sheet) for a national magazine or any other type of media INCLUDING the internet?
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04/29/2008 07:06:08 PM · #111 |
I think the photo is not sexual, and is actually pretty classy. America is too conservative when it comes to these things. I don't understand why we are supposed to be so ashamed of our bodies.
As far as role models go...I don't think that a kid is really going to find the best role model on tv, at all. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't watch tv...it just means that their parents need to instill good values in the kids and present them with opportunities to observe or meet good role models. I got to watch any tv/movies I wanted to growing up...but my parents were still my role models, and I loved to read.
Parenting matters more than some photo on a magazine cover. |
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04/29/2008 07:10:26 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Would you let your 15 year old daughter pose nude (covered by the sheet) for a national magazine or any other type of media INCLUDING the internet? |
Uh, my understanding of the setup was that she was NOT nude, but posed and shot so as to APPEAR that she was, under the sheet ... for some people that may make a difference. |
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04/29/2008 07:29:07 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by CrystalFury:
I think the photo is not sexual, and is actually pretty classy. America is too conservative when it comes to these things. I don't understand why we are supposed to be so ashamed of our bodies. |
The thread has been going on long enough that we are losing the original point. I did not claim the picture is racy, but rather felt it was the first step down a road which women are doomed to travel. Nobody need be ashamed of their body, but why start down this road at age 15?
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04/29/2008 07:46:28 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by CrystalFury:
I think the photo is not sexual, and is actually pretty classy. America is too conservative when it comes to these things. I don't understand why we are supposed to be so ashamed of our bodies. |
The thread has been going on long enough that we are losing the original point. I did not claim the picture is racy, but rather felt it was the first step down a road which women are doomed to travel. Nobody need be ashamed of their body, but why start down this road at age 15? |
Well, that DOES bring up the question of: "Are we willing to live in a society that tells someone else what to do with her body?"
Are you saying "There ought to be a law?"
Just askin.. |
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04/29/2008 07:57:17 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by CrystalFury:
I think the photo is not sexual, and is actually pretty classy. America is too conservative when it comes to these things. I don't understand why we are supposed to be so ashamed of our bodies. |
The thread has been going on long enough that we are losing the original point. I did not claim the picture is racy, but rather felt it was the first step down a road which women are doomed to travel. Nobody need be ashamed of their body, but why start down this road at age 15? |
Well, that DOES bring up the question of: "Are we willing to live in a society that tells someone else what to do with her body?"
Are you saying "There ought to be a law?"
Just askin.. |
LOL. I'm not falling into that trap. This isn't a question of morality, it's a question of misogyny. Why must females sexualize their product to remain successful? These days if you want to be an entertainer you need to have both talent AND looks (and sometimes not even talent). While this has probably been true to some extent for a long time, it's becoming more and more the case as time progresses. Look at American Idol. I haven't watched for a long, long time, but I would contend that while we accept male talent without classic beauty (ala Reuben Studdard or Clay Aiken) we will not accept the same with women (ala Jennifer Hudson).
Let me ask the same loaded question to you. Are you saying, "Anything goes with regards to the law?"
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04/29/2008 08:06:11 PM · #116 |
Women of any age should be required to wear burkas at all times.
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04/29/2008 08:08:22 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This isn't a question of morality, it's a question of misogyny. |
So Annie Liebovitz is a misogynist now ? |
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04/29/2008 08:09:26 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Let me ask the same loaded question to you. Are you saying, "Anything goes with regards to the law?" |
'scuse me, Doc. I didn't know it was a loaded question.
I am saying (in other words) that a person has a right to do whatever he or she wishes to do with her or his body as long as it is within the law.
If we wish to guide children then, as adults, we can mold the behavior of our kids to reflect our values. (See my earlier post)
Forgive me if I say that to, well "tut, tut" over behavior with which we do not agree, without coming to some conclusion as to how to change it is counterproductive.
I do not mean to be argumentative. It's just that I am having a difficult time figuring out what (you) wish to achieve with this thread.
ETA to add the "you"
Message edited by author 2008-04-29 20:11:20. |
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04/29/2008 08:16:30 PM · #119 |
I spouted off so let me respond ;)
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by mpeters:
I grew up in a community where TV was verboten--though at the time I didn't really know what I was missing. Now I'm the guy with the dumb look on my face when someone talks about the Cosby show or Dukes of Hazzard. ;) The main benefit I gained from this situation? IMO the reason I love to read is directly related to the lack of TV in my house as a child. |
I was never restricted from TV, yet I've been a voracious reader my entire life.
We were always encouraged as kids to expand our knowledge in any and all manner. |
I'm sure there were plenty of cool factoids I missed out on by not having TV as a part of my early years. To elaborate a little--I don't equate TV watching with lack of knowledge or poor reading skills, etc. I also don't look at a childhood w/o TV as a negative. Maybe the only benefit was more fresh air. Dunno. My wife makes fun of me now because I read the Brittanica for fun as a kid.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by mpeters:
We too are a basic cable family and our 3 yr old really enjoys anything we will let him watch. Curious George/Bob the builder/etc. I wholeheartedly concur with Doc regardings TV's/movies steady influence on our thinking(not just kids). Garbage in-garbage out. |
My daughter could read and spell before she hit kindergarten.......she has also traveled and been exposed to much of the beauty and not-so-beautiful in life through travel and life with unusual older parents. She's also an only child, so she's subject to more intense attention than one of many. |
That's cool--mine too but he's only 3. :P Your point? I'm assuming you monitored her TV time and content? More importantly--you've spent time with her. And don't call yourself unusual. :)
Originally posted by mpeters:
I saw the write-up on GTA yesterday- To say that it has minimal affect on real, everyday violence is to bury ones head to the neck. It's an easy target, as is rap music, but there are plenty of other less extreme culprits which we deal with regularly. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Write-up? Less extreme culprits?
So you pretty much have no first-hand experience with the subject?
Then how can you formulate any honest and informed opinion?
Bury one's head?????
Pretty strong point of view if you haven't seen it. |
I din't know I had to have first hand experience with something to form an opinion. ;P I do live in the nation's car theft capitol(honestly). Eight p.m. is GTA Hour for all the little gangbangers. :P
"Write up" = the standard moaning and groaning about the game's content. By "less extreme culprits" I was specifically thinking of the marketing of 'gotta have it' merchandise to us. Make people feel that our self-worth is determined by the clothes we wear, the car we drive, etc. etc. Nevermind the commercials for junk food...
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I'll take my first hand experience with it, and my, and my daughter's good sense to see that it's just a game, and a cartoon game at that. |
I'm glad she can see it is just a 'game'. What about kids without the same background and parental involvement as yours? Do you agree that this genre of game is partly responsible for antisocial behavior? Or are you saying that it has minimal influence? (not speaking about your daughter--only society in general) I'm not saying it is the main factor but IMO it plays a part.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Remember when the doomsayers were disturbed at the excess violence demonstrated by/at Wile E. Coyote? |
Who's Wile E. Coyote? ;) - I know the argement--'It's all make believe.' But when is the last time you saw a bird drop an anvil on a coyote? No one would confuse the WileE for real life. Not a good analogy.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Oh, and I watch virtually no television at all these days. I just waste my spare time here........and love it!
Ya picks yer poison.....8>) |
And you are healthier for it. Ditto on the wasting spare time here. :)
It really does come down to parenting--But it would be nice to have a little less bombardment... Sorry for the jack Doc.
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04/29/2008 08:20:32 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by mpeters:
It really does come down to parenting--But it would be nice to have a little less bombardment... Sorry for the jack Doc. |
Hey, no prob. This sums up my opinion 100%.
Gordon. Annie is not the misogynyst. She's the tool. Vanity Fair is closer to the culprit, but they are only a cog in the whole corporate machine. |
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04/29/2008 08:50:19 PM · #121 |
I agree with JulietNN 100% on this.
Great picture, wrong subject.
Sometimes photographers have to show some morals and class too...Ms. Liebowitz certainly did not. She should join the papparazzi if this is the path she wants to take.
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04/29/2008 09:00:30 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm not trying to say that photo is over the edge. I'm more railing against the inevitable process that seems to doom young women. To prove the point, can anybody name five 18-25 year old female role models who are not known for their beauty? |
Can you name 5 young males that are role models at that age?? Sure there would be for both male & female but they get less publicity. Dunno, I could care less personally but it's not the mags but the people who buy them... trust me, if people stopped buying trash they would print what sells.
I don't see the issue with that image personally and as someone mentioned the parent/guardian must have already approved.
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04/29/2008 09:06:15 PM · #123 |
I'm just going to stir the pot a bit....
I don't think Annies shot is any more provocative than either of these. And at the time these were on the front page - not very many here had issues with them either. I don't think EITHER Miley or Liebovitz chose wrong here - I think a bunch of parents don't want to spend time talking to their kids.
I'm the mother of three kids who are 7 and 8 years old. I showed the nearest available daughter the photo of Miley (and yes, all three kids are AVID Miley fans) and asked her what she thought of it.
She told me, she looks "kinda cold" and "kinda freaky". Then she said she didn't like the photo, but that she didn't think Miley was any different for having posed for it. We looked at other famous nude art (Birth of Venus) and talked about what we thought was going on in that picture and what we thought was going on in the Miley picture. We had a great discussion about art and nudity and when a person is old enough to make the decision of what is appropriate for themselves. We talked about Miley growing up. We talked about how Miley may be starting to feel like shes sick of everybody treating her like shes a little kid and that she might be trying to be more "grown up". We talked a lot about my days as an art model as an adult.
Then I showed her Kelly and Judi's photos above. This dissolved into giggle fits because the second one had a BUTT and she asked that I not post any pictures of her butt on DPC no matter how pretty it was. I laughed, and agreed that her butt was not art. We giggled a LOT about that.
It wont BE an issue in this house because before *I* am my daughters closest role model. If Ms Cyrus is of the age that shes going to start exploring her own power in her sexuality - well in my opinion thats up to her parents to guide her. And I'll be here to talk to my daughters through Miley's public exposure of her growing into an adult - as it should be. If she falls... well I'll just have to pull out my Drew Barrymore examples of how the fallen can grow up and change their lives around and talk about Brittney again and how things can go very wrong when you make bad decisions. I cant keep the topic away from my kids because they have to function in the world and I can't always be there, but I sure can be the one who helps them understand it.
So is it me, or are a lot of people making a whole lot of whoopdeedoo about something that should be no more of a bump than a good conversation with their kids? I tell you this one was a WHOLE lot easier than the "Why is my friend Liz so upset that her Mom wont let her listen to that Britney Splears lady anymore?" conversation. |
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04/29/2008 09:22:07 PM · #124 |
| Did Miley say she regretted doing the shoot with Annie? |
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04/29/2008 09:25:41 PM · #125 |
| That's a great anecdote notesinstones and one I'd hope would be repeated across the country. Just allow a few of us to act like speedbumps in our futile attempt to slow down the crush of cultural influence. Certainly you'd agree that there are images that would not be appropriate to have the same conversation with your kids. If that's the case then we both simply agree that our culture can cross boundaries. We just don't necessarily agree where those boundaries are. Again, I'm not too worried about this picture, I'm worried about the next one and the next one and the next one for Miley. The innocent kid in the blanket is so five-minutes ago Miley, let's see a bit more this time! |
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