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04/12/2008 10:30:27 PM · #76 |
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04/13/2008 10:12:30 PM · #77 |
I wasn't offended by the other thread - sad, saccharine, depressing, and self-congratulatory, sure -- offensive, no.
Quite taken by the thought of an atheists choir, actually. Punctuated equilibrium in the neighborhood of B, anyone?
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04/13/2008 10:32:55 PM · #78 |
| I'm happy to be whatever I am... not sure what it is but its not any of the organized religions. |
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04/14/2008 01:06:39 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
I wasn't offended by the other thread - sad, saccharine, depressing, and self-congratulatory, sure -- offensive, no. |
Hmm - I think that the fire and brimstone speeches are deeply irresponsible, especially when talking to people who are credulous. I find that offensive. I also find the calls to abandon enquiry and instead rely on blind faith offensive, plus the general sense of righteous superiority that some posts ooze.
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04/14/2008 02:07:46 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Hear the one about the dyslexic agnostic? He wonders if there really is a dog.
;-) |
Make that the "Dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac": he lies awake at night wondering if there is a dog...
R. |
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04/14/2008 02:25:24 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Hear the one about the dyslexic agnostic? He wonders if there really is a dog.
;-) |
Make that the "Dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac": he lies awake at night wondering if there is a dog...
R. |
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04/14/2008 03:24:24 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
I wasn't offended by the other thread - sad, saccharine, depressing, and self-congratulatory, sure -- offensive, no. |
Hmm - I think that the fire and brimstone speeches are deeply irresponsible, especially when talking to people who are credulous. I find that offensive. I also find the calls to abandon inquiry and instead rely on blind faith offensive, plus the general sense of righteous superiority that some posts ooze. |
I see that a lot of the posts over there have been edited, so you may be referring to stuff that is no longer in evidence. But, having been front and center at some true fire and brimstone preaching, what is left over there seems pretty mild.
If the "Christians meek and mild" want to think that I'm going to hell to burn for eternity, that's their prerogative. I think they are misguided, their beliefs are shallow and empty, and that the ridiculousness of their faith should be obvious to all. That's my prerogative.
The calls to abandon inquiry I would find more threatening and offensive, if I thought for a moment that those who make such calls had any real chance of turning back the empirical tide. They are on the wrong side of history, their beliefs destined to be relegated to mere historical curiosity the same as every other belief in god(s) that came before.
Message edited by author 2008-04-14 15:25:28. |
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04/15/2008 11:52:31 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by Jac:
What gets me is the short sightedness of many religionists who claim their religion is the only way. The feeling of belonging is much greater than the need to understand and that's why there are 2.5 billion of you. I don't need to belong to a sect, cult, religion, or any other organized group that preaches one mindedness. I am me and I'm happy to not be under the spell of religion, I am a better person because of it. |
Good point ... I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of people I know personally who go to church -- and count themselves among Christians -- only because they feel a social or familial obligation to go, but who have told me in confidence that they really don't believe in it all. That was us for awhile -- my wife and I have devout Catholics/Christians on both sides of our families, and there was a period when we only went to church to placate them and avoid the confrontation and/or debates. I'm glad we're finally free of that.
Message edited by author 2008-04-15 12:28:02. |
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04/23/2008 07:05:58 PM · #84 |
A couple of book recommendations;
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins - I just finished this and thought Dawkins presented his arguments very clearly. An enjoyable read, and quite witty in parts.
God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens. I haven't finished it yet, but it's a harder slog then 'Delusion'. I think Hitchens is taking more of an extremist viewpoint, and taking no prisoners!
Anyone read these? Opinions?
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04/23/2008 08:58:16 PM · #85 |
I have. What can I say that wouldn't be preaching to the choir? ;-) Metaphorically of course. I actually enjoyed Hitchens' book more. I didn't find him extremist so much as realistic in his assessment of the worthlessness of religion.
You might also like the reader he put together called "The Portable Atheist", with excerpts from David Hume, John Stuart Mill, Freud, Carl Sagain, Dawkins, and many others, forty-seven in total. A nice dense little book. There's also "In Defense of Atheism" by Michael Onfrey, which I found less meaty than the English speakers, but still compelling. |
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04/23/2008 09:30:27 PM · #86 |
I've enjoyed these books -- have been a Dawkins fan since college -- as well as Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris; brief but compelling.
And at the risk of fueling the fire, this website by Chris Beach includes many notable quotes that express many of my beliefs much more eloquently than I ever could.
Message edited by author 2008-04-23 21:32:58. |
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04/25/2008 02:41:25 PM · #87 |
Athiest here. And since most believers believe only in thier God and reject all others, I contend that we are all athiests...I just believe in one fewer god than some!
Message edited by author 2008-04-25 14:56:34. |
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04/25/2008 03:10:25 PM · #88 |
I read "The God Delusion" -- I thought it had many interesting ideas, and I was in strong agreement with some of them.
It has been said that the thing that will keep a man in everlasting ignorance is contempt prior to investigation. I have investigated spiritual matters. At one point I even contemplated a religious (monasterial) life.
For now, I suppose I'm mostly a secular humanist with a streak of unitarian universalism. I can't say I'm an atheist, unless it's a foxhole atheist, because I do pray when the pressure is on. Sort of a "God, if thou art, hear my prayer" prayer.
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04/25/2008 03:20:45 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by citymars:
I can't say I'm an atheist, unless it's a foxhole atheist, because I do pray when the pressure is on. |
Doesn't it feel hollow when you do that? |
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04/25/2008 03:43:03 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by citymars:
I can't say I'm an atheist, unless it's a foxhole atheist, because I do pray when the pressure is on. |
Doesn't it feel hollow when you do that? |
Sometimes, but not necessarily. Maybe my foxhole prayers are just a form of meditation. I find when I'm distraught, whatever lifelines I throw out can help. I heard a concept once that I liked, something along the lines of God as a river. The river just *is*; it doesn't care if you step into it or not, but by stepping into it you may find relief, quench your thirst, whatever. I feel that way about "God." I absolutely don't believe in a deity that moves us around like pieces on a chessboard, or that favors one country or belief system over another, etc. On the other hand, I'm not convinced there isn't an unknowable universal force.
Not to belabor this, but I've also never completely thrown off the mish-mash of ideas from my childhood and even adulthood: Sunday schools, bible camps, baptism, later involvement with Episcapolianism, monastery stays, etc., etc. It may seem foolish, but I doubt I'll ever be 100% free of those influences, however sentimental they may seem. |
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04/25/2008 04:11:34 PM · #91 |
Doesn't seem foolish. I'll never be free of my first eighteen years as a Catholic. It's part of my history, and I wouldn't want to be free of it anyway. I still find the inside of a church a peaceful place, and I truly enjoy the experience. Last September, on a trip to Europe, I found myself in a very old church at the top of a very large hill in a small village. There was nobody inside but me. It was extremely windy outside, and the wind was howling around the building, but its cavernous inside made the noise seem very far away. It was beautiful in there, full of medieval statuary, and oil paintings, done by pilgrims, dating back as far the eighteenth century and as recent as twenty years ago. I really liked it.
The difference between the Catholic me and the enlightened me is that the Catholic me might have interpreted the building's natural serenity as conducive to believing that there was a god in there, watching me. The me now knows it's just a beautiful old building, that nobody lives inside, that the wind is just the wind, that beauty and peace are a consequence of my interpretation of events, and that a life well lived in caring about others is its own reward, not the ultimatum of an external entity. It's terribly freeing, being this version of me. |
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04/25/2008 05:37:54 PM · #92 |
Thanks for the lovely story, the thoughts and the question -- you got me thinking about things I haven't taken time to consider lately.
Have a nice weekend, everybody! |
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04/25/2008 06:02:43 PM · #93 |
BRING OUT THE GOAT!
GIVE ME MY KNIFE!
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04/26/2008 02:38:59 AM · #94 |
First I want to make it clear that I am not posting here to upset anyone and sorry if it does. I just wanted to say that I didn't even know this thread existed until about 20 minutes ago. I have read all of the posts and think that this is great. I am not offended by anything written here... I do not want to convert anyone here or share my faith because it is not the place. For having read it I think I can see things more clearly from the point of view of the atheist/agnostic or otherwise unbeliever in the Christian God. Which is kind of strange since I used to be one. I think this comes because your posts are not combative towards me in particular. I think I maybe take things a little too personally at times and want to apologize for having done that. To the starter of this thread I want you to know that I did not intend to upset anyone with my thread. Sincerely. Obviously it did. I don't want to divide the people here on DPC but I did think it would be okay to try to meet others on here who share my faith. It is my hope that we could all be tolerant of one another. We don't have to agree on matters of religion or the lack thereof but we could certainly treat each other with respect. I don't agree with anyone damning anyone to hell anymore than I agree that evolution is the be all end all of our creation. Like I said I get heated at times when I feel disrespected and I apologize for any statements I have made either on "the other thread" or in Science and theology thread that were perceived as or were judgemental. We are all trying to find our way in this world and no one should be judged for doing that simply because we have not all ended up in the same place. That includes Christians. I find a lot of 'Christian' institutions just as objectionable as some of you. I know that Christianity as an organized religion doesn't live up to what it is supposed to be. I agree with most of what I have read about organized religion and that is why I have never attended any church. That is going to change soon I think for me but not because I think that organized Christianity is in great shape. It is for other reasons which are beyond the scope of this post. Bottom line: I would ask that everyone respect everyone else's point of view or beliefs and to not take offense when those views or beliefs are expressed. Think of it. Do you not consider a Christian every bit as lost as the Christian believes you to be? I think that is a true statement. If each person gives respect to all others then all of us can get along without fear of personal attacks and we can keep the DPC community a strong and diverse community. DP
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04/26/2008 10:29:47 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Think of it. Do you not consider a Christian every bit as lost as the Christian believes you to be? I think that is a true statement. If each person gives respect to all others then all of us can get along without fear of personal attacks and we can keep the DPC community a strong and diverse community. |
Actually, we don't. We think you are wrong and misguided, but we don't believe that your being wrong damns you to hell and torment for all eternity. See how that makes a difference? Do you also see how telling people that they are "lost" and going to hell might not be the best way to practice the philosophy of "each person gives respect to all others"?
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Bottom line: I would ask that everyone respect everyone else's point of view or beliefs and to not take offense when those views or beliefs are expressed. |
Respect is a two-way street. And as far as my responsibility or desire to "respect" the beliefs of those who make claims without, or in in opposition to, evidence . . .
“We must respect the other man’s religion, but only to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart.” -- H.L. Mencken
Message edited by author 2008-04-26 10:30:11.
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04/26/2008 12:05:41 PM · #96 |
An example of Christian "respect," "love" and "charity":
Soldier's Atheism Led to Threats
edited to correct link, thanks Louis
Message edited by author 2008-04-26 12:16:25.
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04/26/2008 12:14:15 PM · #97 |
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04/26/2008 01:25:07 PM · #98 |
Yes, I saw that story in the paper today. It's not hard enough to be a soldier, you have to worry about other soldiers threatening you because you don't believe like they do?
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04/26/2008 03:16:30 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Think of it. Do you not consider a Christian every bit as lost as the Christian believes you to be? I think that is a true statement. If each person gives respect to all others then all of us can get along without fear of personal attacks and we can keep the DPC community a strong and diverse community. |
Actually, we don't. We think you are wrong and misguided, but we don't believe that your being wrong damns you to hell and torment for all eternity. See how that makes a difference? Do you also see how telling people that they are "lost" and going to hell might not be the best way to practice the philosophy of "each person gives respect to all others"?
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Bottom line: I would ask that everyone respect everyone else's point of view or beliefs and to not take offense when those views or beliefs are expressed. |
Respect is a two-way street. And as far as my responsibility or desire to "respect" the beliefs of those who make claims without, or in in opposition to, evidence . . .
“We must respect the other man’s religion, but only to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children are smart.” -- H.L. Mencken |
I understand that it is offensive to you that the Christian faith espouses that Hell is the eventual eternal place for people who do not accept Jesus as their savior. I can certainly understand why you would take great offense at it from a personal standpoint. Can you not equally understand that your point of view espouses that we are wasting our lives in service to a non-existent entity. Both things can be seen as offensive in the context of tolerance and respect. My suggestion is that we come to the knowledge that our viewpoints necessarily collide and to acknowledge this and move on. Accept that it is our viewpoint regarding eternity and that we should accept that it is your viewpoint regarding the finiteness of existence. Our viewpoint makes no sense to you based on the available evidence and yours makes no sense to us based on our religious experience. The validity of each being in question as the correct one not by ourselves as both atheist and Christian are quite sure of their position but being in question as a result of the different viewpoints existing. I harbor no grudge that atheists believe as they do though offensively since I am damned to wasting my finite life and I would want no grudge by you that Christians believe as they do though offensively since you are damned to eternal hell unless you change your viewpoint. If we look at it objectively are we both not really trying to help the other to come to the better viewpoint? If you agree then aren't we really both trying to do a good turn for the other? If this is the case then can we not agree that we are struggling through this life trying to do good for our fellow human being? If you agree with that then can we not then show respect to one another instead of taking offense. That is what I seek. DP
edit: I would also point out and want to make it clear that I am not asking for you to respect the beliefs of the person but the person themselves. That is tolerance. Much the same way you may not agree with a particular scientists conclusions or theories yet still respect them as a member of the scientific community. Here we are dealing with the human race. You may not agree with the Christian conclusions (or any religious system) but you can still respect us as members of the human race. Christians should do the same. I think we are both guilty of lacking both tolerance and respect for one another. We can fix that with communication and finding common ground. That common ground is our humanity. As I have said before: We are all in the same boat.
Message edited by author 2008-04-26 15:23:55.
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04/26/2008 03:46:15 PM · #100 |
I have the utmost respect for a great number of Christians I've known. As well as many Jews, a scattering of Muslims, and a few agnostics and atheists. I respect them as people. I don't have to believe the same thing they do to respect them and their beliefs. I just respect them for who they are. Will that work?
For the record, I believe in hobbits and the world they inhabited. :-) I also believe in vampires. |
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