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04/07/2008 02:33:39 PM · #1 |
I've recently been given the opportunity (well, gave myself the opportunity through advertising) to photograph two bands (one punk, one jazz). A great way to broaden my modest portfolio (two of my loves together, music and photography. w00t!)
Both want me to photograph them for promotional material, during their rehearsals and live shows.
For those of you with experience doing this sort of photography, what works for you (and the band) as far as image rights, etc?
A contract that gives them rights to distribute the images for free (without selling)?
Allowing them to sell, but you get a percentage?
Giving them full rights and you get a large sum to give up those rights (not ideal, in my opinion, but I've seen it mentioned on 'managing your band' kind of sites/articles)
If it matters, the punk band is a band that relocated from the midwest/back east, the frontman/guitarist has a following 'back home' but is reforming here in the Pacific NW and the jazz band is fairly well known, but still doing the self-produced CD production etc, so money (out of pocket for them) IS a factor (the guy in the jazz band jokes "Hell, I was gonna make YOU pay ME to do the photographs" :p ).
I've already got myself free access to their shows ("Yeah, I'm with the band, man")..that in itself is priceless to a music fan like myself...
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04/07/2008 02:36:59 PM · #2 |
| Just do it for the beer and the groupies. |
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04/07/2008 02:42:11 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Just do it for the beer and the groupies. |
I thought THAT would go without saying LOL. |
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04/07/2008 03:02:43 PM · #4 |
You cannot sell the images w/o permission from the band. This has been debated before, but even though you have access/its public etc... you would be making money because people would be buying pictures of the musician.
I think your best bet woudl be a flat fee for unlimited useage of the images by the band for whatever they want. You could put a clause in the agreement that allows you to sell the images as well and maintain ownership. Or do it for free with those stipulations.
If you try to charge and be demanding, a lot of bands will just say piss off and have a friend with a camera do it for them.
Take what you can get... beers, groupies, etc... |
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04/07/2008 03:15:14 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
You cannot sell the images w/o permission from the band. This has been debated before, but even though you have access/its public etc... you would be making money because people would be buying pictures of the musician.
I think your best bet woudl be a flat fee for unlimited useage of the images by the band for whatever they want. You could put a clause in the agreement that allows you to sell the images as well and maintain ownership. Or do it for free with those stipulations.
If you try to charge and be demanding, a lot of bands will just say piss off and have a friend with a camera do it for them.
Take what you can get... beers, groupies, etc... |
The release I already use does have a condition that allows me to sell & show, that I retain ownership of, the images I take, while giving them permission to display, use & distribute (without selling -- at least not without contacting me first -- in that case, the ball falls in my court).
I could easily modify the release.
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04/07/2008 03:39:42 PM · #6 |
When I have done it in the past, I negotiate the price and the terms of use before the shoot. Be fair to yourself with the pricing. If the band thinks you should be paying them to take pictures, you should forget about it. You are offering them a service, and if you do any little bit of research, you will find that having promotional photos taken by any other local photographers will be quite pricey. Take into consideration the equipment you may need to buy, the price of the prints, the time you spend shooting and editing, transportation cost and time - it all adds up. If you are not careful, you will end up spending much more on the shoot than you are earning. Some of that cash could be going towards new glass etc. As much as you love your job, you have to remember that it is a job. If you were mowing their lawn, would you "pay them" to do it because they are a famous band? Musicians like to give attitude, cause they think they are the shit. Feed their ego as much as you want, but don't give it away!
As to terms of usage, thats up to you. When I have done this sort of thing, I usually give the band a package deal. If they want to use it for distribution on their website (as in a small jpeg), then thats always cool with me, as long as I get credit. However, if this is going to be on thousands of cd's that are being sold, you should step up the price. (perhaps not a usage fee, but a package deal that gives them permission to distribute your work). They higher res image they want as a digital file, the more expensive it gets. Try writing other photogs in the area and see what they are charging for these things.
I'm new to this business too, but these are the things ive learned the hard way. Hope that helps! |
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04/07/2008 03:55:12 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by tapeworm_jimmy:
When I have done it in the past, I negotiate the price and the terms of use before the shoot. Be fair to yourself with the pricing. If the band thinks you should be paying them to take pictures, you should forget about it. You are offering them a service, and if you do any little bit of research, you will find that having promotional photos taken by any other local photographers will be quite pricey. Take into consideration the equipment you may need to buy, the price of the prints, the time you spend shooting and editing, transportation cost and time - it all adds up. If you are not careful, you will end up spending much more on the shoot than you are earning. Some of that cash could be going towards new glass etc. As much as you love your job, you have to remember that it is a job. If you were mowing their lawn, would you "pay them" to do it because they are a famous band? Musicians like to give attitude, cause they think they are the shit. Feed their ego as much as you want, but don't give it away!
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The jazz guy was just kidding about me paying him. ;)
Originally posted by tapeworm_jimmy:
As to terms of usage, thats up to you. When I have done this sort of thing, I usually give the band a package deal. If they want to use it for distribution on their website (as in a small jpeg), then thats always cool with me, as long as I get credit. However, if this is going to be on thousands of cd's that are being sold, you should step up the price. (perhaps not a usage fee, but a package deal that gives them permission to distribute your work). They higher res image they want as a digital file, the more expensive it gets. Try writing other photogs in the area and see what they are charging for these things.
I'm new to this business too, but these are the things ive learned the hard way. Hope that helps! |
Thanks for the input...all is appreciated.
I'm meeting with both bands this week and next to discuss things further, so I'll know even more about what they're looking for at that point and keep everybody's suggestions in mind. Just didn't want to go totally unarmed or seem like I was coming up with terms off the top of my head :D
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04/07/2008 04:00:43 PM · #8 |
everything tapeworm said is true as long as teh band is well known and well managed. Only you know how well known this band is. Are they playing in bars and small clubs? Do they have albums? Are they signed? Do they have a tour manager?
If you are dealing with the real thing who have all the things mentioned above, you can do exactly what tapeworm said. I don't think you are dealing with that kind of band mainly because you are talking directly to the band. If they were in a position to pay good money for photos, they would have a PR Rep, a tour manager, a band manager, reps from the record company etc...
A lot of studios who sign bands also provide all the PR and management work.
If you are dealing with small time bands, you will run into the problem that has plagued photographers since the beginning of the cheap DSLR age. You will run into the fan w/ a good camera who will do it for free and will give up full rights.
I think your deal is pretty good for a small time band. Maybe try to get a flat fee along with it. If they get famous, you own pics from when they were just a "bar band". |
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04/07/2008 04:19:54 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
everything tapeworm said is true as long as teh band is well known and well managed. Only you know how well known this band is. Are they playing in bars and small clubs? Do they have albums? Are they signed? Do they have a tour manager?
If you are dealing with the real thing who have all the things mentioned above, you can do exactly what tapeworm said. I don't think you are dealing with that kind of band mainly because you are talking directly to the band. If they were in a position to pay good money for photos, they would have a PR Rep, a tour manager, a band manager, reps from the record company etc...
A lot of studios who sign bands also provide all the PR and management work.
If you are dealing with small time bands, you will run into the problem that has plagued photographers since the beginning of the cheap DSLR age. You will run into the fan w/ a good camera who will do it for free and will give up full rights.
I think your deal is pretty good for a small time band. Maybe try to get a flat fee along with it. If they get famous, you own pics from when they were just a "bar band". |
You're indeed correct...I'm dealing directly with the bands themselves.
These are definitely not "big time" bands. Yet. :)
The jazz band is playing at a small, but popular, jazz club here in Portland, has self-released CDs, self managed,etc.
Judging by comments on his web page, the punk band guitarist/frontman had quite a following where he used to live and is reforming after he moved, sans other band members, to PDX (Portland's scene seems to be well known in musician circles;
"The Decemberists" & "The Shins" all moved here from other states just for the music scene).
I've been thinking (including advice given) that since they are 'not quite big time' yet & money is probably a factor, doing something that allows them free distribution of images, usage for promo material & web sites, but if larger images (poster size or just higher quality, period) or photos for a CD (cover, liner notes, etc)...they (or whoever wants them) would have to go through me for sales of those images (but that fits in with retaining my ownership rights).
Message edited by author 2008-04-07 16:21:51. |
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09/15/2008 11:04:32 AM · #10 |
I'm "with" a band. haha, its awesome, i get into shows free, and hang out with them all the time, ive done a concert with them, and did a promo shoot over the weekend. They are a local band, heavy metal, but they are cool. I'm only 17, so im pretty much just giving them the images, I may do a little watermark of my signature in the corner, just so my name goes with them. thats the main reason of me doing it for free, to get my name out.
Not to brag or anything, but like everyone at my school and around here know im the best photographer around here. its pretty cool, the way i got in contact with them was the one guy walked up and was like "hey, we want you to take pictures of our band, we'll give you $20" some girl overheard and was like "hell, il take pics for $20" and the guy in the band was like "no, he takes good pics" il never forget that. =] haha. |
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09/15/2008 11:45:02 AM · #11 |
| I do most of my band work for free, or in exchange for records. Im also friends with 99% of the bands I shoot. I've found that there is no amount of moneythese bands can afford that would match the amount of exposure gained by my image ending up on the cover of their albums, tagged in magazines, etc. |
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09/21/2008 10:26:27 AM · #12 |
I shoot bands all of the time, and I do it for free. Charging a band would be the biggest headache because they would never be able to agree on anything. Half of them would like the photos the other half would not. I just tell them that I will shoot their photos if they let me have the creative choice of how the photos look. 9 out of 10 are like "cool, do what you think" and then are happy with the photos. The 10% that don't will more than likely break up in a couple weeks because they are self centered and are pretty much displeased with everything. That 10% could have Van Halen on guitar and get mad at him for not playing something right.
Most of the time bands hook me up with a top friends spot on Myspace, and with bands that usually gives you some good pub. Most of them hook me up with their music, t-shirt, hoodie or whatever they have lying around. I never ask for anything though. |
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09/21/2008 10:44:25 AM · #13 |
 EvanH might be a good one to PM for advice. His website rocks, and the evolution of his career in band photography can be found on his blog, which he seems to keep current. |
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09/21/2008 02:41:22 PM · #14 |
For bands who are managed/signed I charge a day rate plus all travel/hotel expenses. I get paid for the shoot, then again when I deliver the photo files. Then I get paid again if they choose something that goes on a cd. I don't display my photos until after they start using them in their promotions.
For local-ish bands, I pick and choose who I shoot and I do it for free. I always listen to their music first, though.
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09/21/2008 04:47:39 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by sher:
I always listen to their music first, though. |
There are some pretty bad bands out there! lol |
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09/22/2008 07:30:53 AM · #16 |
I see a lot of people using the distinction of whether or not the band is signed or managed as basis for their prices. This may have been a good indication of a bands talent and size 10 years ago, but now a days, everybody has a management company and everyone is signed to a label, and 99% of those labels are a friend of a friend that saved up some money from cutting grass over the summer and can afford to put out a small press cd.
If you feel you have to charge, listen to the band, get a feel for how big they are via myspace comments and such, and base it from there. I still stick with your best bet being to do it for free and let them promote you.
*disclaimer - if you know a band is huge though and has major label backing - bleed those suckers dry! |
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09/23/2008 03:05:11 PM · #17 |
| I see a lot of people who have never shot a band before.. who cares if they're managed to signed? Consistency is prime, settle on a rate that you can work with, before all, and don't get greedy. They will see through that, and find somewhere else to go. |
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09/23/2008 03:29:52 PM · #18 |
| I look at bands as if they are eccentric models. They always wear clothing that is different from the average Joe, they bring color and flair to the shoot and they have an attitude. I could care less if they are signed, or they have never played before. They are still super fun to shoot. I never charge for any shoot because I am not of the skill to bring the goods every time I step up to the plate, but I don't know that I would ever charge the local bands. They are just trying to live their dream. For 99.9% of the bands out there a cool photo that is as good as a big national act might have, is as close to the big time as they will get. |
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09/28/2008 04:40:25 PM · #19 |
I shot a local band the other day, i didn't charge them, they said they would give me $20 though. which is perfectly fine with me. they gave me like 10 mins though, which pissed me off, you really have to sit them down and plan it out, because most bands dont know what goes into a shoot.
Sit down and get ideas of what they want, but make sure they know that you are the boss, and go from there. |
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09/28/2008 06:36:34 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by ajdelaware:
I see a lot of people using the distinction of whether or not the band is signed or managed as basis for their prices. This may have been a good indication of a bands talent and size 10 years ago, but now a days, everybody has a management company and everyone is signed to a label, and 99% of those labels are a friend of a friend that saved up some money from cutting grass over the summer and can afford to put out a small press cd.
If you feel you have to charge, listen to the band, get a feel for how big they are via myspace comments and such, and base it from there. I still stick with your best bet being to do it for free and let them promote you.
*disclaimer - if you know a band is huge though and has major label backing - bleed those suckers dry! |
for my part, when i mentioned managed/signed bands, i did mean bands that had major label backing and all my fees were being paid by the label, not the band itself.
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09/29/2008 12:41:38 PM · #21 |
With all this being said, if a band does offer me money, i'm not going to say no. Most of them I end up getting t-shirts, vinyl, cds, +1s, etc.
The one shot I got published in HAILS AND HORNS magazine, I got a sweet long sleeve t-shirt from the band for that one. |
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09/29/2008 12:50:06 PM · #22 |
we (my brother and I) shoot local bands/artists here. We do it for free the first couple of times. The first one we did, let his friends know. Next thing you know our names got out, artists were wanting pictures because we were cheap, we kept ownership of the images, gave them printable size file for a CD, and some small files for websites and things like that. Anything bigger they would have to buy. (say they want to sell posters or something) (reasonably of course, I understand they are starting out just like me and we all gotta start out somewhere)
Anyways, next thing you know each band member wants a seperate photoshoot, they tell their friends and family and they end up wanting shoots too, they tell other artists we did an excellent job, and those other artists want shoots too. Basically we just grew from there
*edit* we also ended up booking a gig at a club. The owner saw the images from one of the artists that was playing there, called us up (we left a small watermark on the photo) he called us up told us he has an annual event he does and he needed coverage-asked us how much he said ok lets get together and that was another job
people were even contacting us because they wanted better "myspace" pictures, who were friends with the bandson the website, saw their photos, which is kinda funny, but hell a job is a job right lol
Message edited by author 2008-09-29 12:53:27. |
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