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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> Future of DPC (Note regarding DPL 2)
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03/14/2008 01:25:52 PM · #76
n/a

Message edited by author 2008-03-14 13:26:05.
03/14/2008 01:33:49 PM · #77
Originally posted by ZeppKash:

The problem that *I* had with the DPL was not that you can discuss your entries with team members, that is a fabulous idea, but Its that the teams were, it seemed, grouped together by talent level, with all the better photographers on this site on just a few teams. How much do the 'Ribbon Hogs' (sorry to pick on one team, but its first one that comes to mind) have to gain from each other? Something sure, but how much MORE would somebody thats just learning photography have to learn from the 'pros' on this site?


Thing is, they have a ton of stuff to learn from each other. Maybe they have a lot they could teach to someone just starting out, but they themselves still have a lot to learn. Depends on who you think it has to benefit, everyone ?
03/14/2008 01:43:58 PM · #78
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by ZeppKash:

The problem that *I* had with the DPL was not that you can discuss your entries with team members, that is a fabulous idea, but Its that the teams were, it seemed, grouped together by talent level, with all the better photographers on this site on just a few teams. How much do the 'Ribbon Hogs' (sorry to pick on one team, but its first one that comes to mind) have to gain from each other? Something sure, but how much MORE would somebody thats just learning photography have to learn from the 'pros' on this site?


Thing is, they have a ton of stuff to learn from each other. Maybe they have a lot they could teach to someone just starting out, but they themselves still have a lot to learn. Depends on who you think it has to benefit, everyone ?


A ton? I disagree. I believe that *I* could learn 'a ton' from 'the pros', while in comparison they learn 'pounds' from each other. (if that makes sense)

Can you honestly tell me that the previous DPL wasn't like a few pro baseball teams competing with each other while beating up the the 'pick-me-up' game teams?
03/14/2008 01:45:21 PM · #79
I don't necessarilly disagree with this idea (DPL-only challenges) and I can understand if the DPL seems like it hurts the site for you. I personally learn the most from people explaing how they do things (like the descriptions of their photos that we can read after the challenge is over), not from comments telling me how good or bad my photo is. I can't speak for others but comments on my images do not account for most of my learning on this site.

Originally posted by talmy:


But this should not be necessary. There already is a mechanism in place (although no indication that the photographer solicits comments -- but that is grist for other threads). The forums would be clogged if everyone wanting comments started a new thread!

My guess is that people who enter DPL aren't particularly interested in comments, but are interested in scores. So people who are commenting have two hits -- the number of entries go up, and the percentage of people who want comments goes down. This is a bad situation!

I really think that DPL specific challenges are the way to go.
03/14/2008 06:42:50 PM · #80
Originally posted by ZeppKash:


Can you honestly tell me that the previous DPL wasn't like a few pro baseball teams competing with each other while beating up the the 'pick-me-up' game teams?


Agreed. It was like the Red Sox and the Yankees vs the rest.
03/14/2008 07:14:21 PM · #81
Originally posted by Nobody:

Two thoughts:

1) Can we remove the DPL "Recent Forum Activity" section on the main page for those that participated? At this point, it's just clutter.

2) I personally don't miss DPL. It was fun for a while, but it I found it detracted from shooting to learn and for the enjoyment of it. If DPL does return, I think I will pass this time. DPC is a better site without it, IMHO.


I agree with both of these points. If/when DPL returns I will not participate this time. It became a chore to me, and sucked the fun right out of the site for me.
03/14/2008 07:20:26 PM · #82
I absolutely disagree, we where placed originally 4th lowest to the bottom of the entire league.


Message edited by author 2008-03-15 15:06:30.
03/15/2008 12:49:38 AM · #83
I absolutely love this site as it is, and as a rule, I fear change. That being said, I trust Langdon and the SC to do what's best for DPC and make whatever improvements are necessary. I've never gotten to compete in the DPL, and would love to do so soon - and there were over 150 "free agents" signed up to play in the DPL before the free agent pool was removed, so I know many people are eagerly awaiting the next season. I'm all for improvements but don't see the harm in running another DPL season while we wait.
03/15/2008 12:26:36 PM · #84
One of the new changes coming is: YOU MUST MAKE A N I C E commment before your vote will be counted.

Oh, and the scoring system scale will be:
A vote of 8 is a poor photo
A vote of 9 is an average photo
A Vote of 10 is a great photo
"+" and "-" can be given if the submitter of the photo is a friend of yours
03/15/2008 01:08:45 PM · #85
Originally posted by dfstevenson:

One of the new changes coming is: YOU MUST MAKE A N I C E commment before your vote will be counted.


I like that rule, nice comments are nice. A priori, that is. And more of them wouldn't hurt :)
03/15/2008 01:53:15 PM · #86
Even nice criticism is appreciated...
03/15/2008 02:35:09 PM · #87
Nice criticism is particularly appreciated, come to think of it :)
03/15/2008 04:52:00 PM · #88
Originally posted by dfstevenson:

One of the new changes coming is: YOU MUST MAKE A N I C E commment before your vote will be counted.


So are you volunteering to look through 200+ votes twice a week and to decide whether the comments are nice enough??!

Also, forcing people to make nice comments is pointless imho....if it's ego stroking you want then Flickr is the place...plenty of fanboys and girls to write nice things to feed photographic egos. You don't learn from fanboys and girls though.

N
03/15/2008 04:54:41 PM · #89
Originally posted by langdon:

[quote=BHuseman] However, that said, it is my personal opinion that the DPL wasn't as beneficial to the site or the community as I had first thought it would be.


I think I agree with you here.
03/15/2008 04:57:00 PM · #90
Originally posted by basssman7:

Originally posted by ZeppKash:


Can you honestly tell me that the previous DPL wasn't like a few pro baseball teams competing with each other while beating up the the 'pick-me-up' game teams?


Agreed. It was like the Red Sox and the Yankees vs the rest.


Now what's wrong with that????
03/15/2008 05:10:58 PM · #91
One of the new changes will be an algorithm that will single out anyone who votes a 1,2,or 3 on a photo averaging 7 or better by other voters unless your own photo scores 7 or better (in which case you probably no whereof you speak), provided you do this no more frequently than three photos per challenge on average. Those using Canon cameras, recipients of Oobies, or featuring yellow rubber duckies or woodies are exempt from the algorithm rule.

Actually I pretty much like things the way they are.
03/15/2008 08:03:03 PM · #92
I feel extremely inferior while the DPL challenges are going on. My photography cannot compete with 'the big guys'...but I joined this site to learn, read, ask questions, and see how my photo stacks up, etc. Like was mentioned before, I learn alot from the descriptions on the photos....However, while DPL is going on, it feels like 'I don't belong'....most conversations are about DPL, or the DPL scores, etc. I just actually noticed I think I stopped competing when this was going on.....I still am on DPC non-stop, but I use it more to learn (read and ask) rather than post my challenges...

That's not what I thought the site was about.
03/16/2008 12:43:05 AM · #93
Originally posted by dassilem:

I feel extremely inferior while the DPL challenges are going on. My photography cannot compete with 'the big guys'...but I joined this site to learn, read, ask questions, and see how my photo stacks up, etc. Like was mentioned before, I learn alot from the descriptions on the photos....However, while DPL is going on, it feels like 'I don't belong'....most conversations are about DPL, or the DPL scores, etc. I just actually noticed I think I stopped competing when this was going on.....I still am on DPC non-stop, but I use it more to learn (read and ask) rather than post my challenges...

That's not what I thought the site was about.


Added bold--

Perhaps you've discovered the most valuable part of DPC??
03/16/2008 03:03:55 AM · #94
Originally posted by ZeppKash:

Can you honestly tell me that the previous DPL wasn't like a few pro baseball teams competing with each other while beating up the the 'pick-me-up' game teams?


Absolutely. Did you know there were three divisions? Go look at who won the B and C divisions. I think I'd love to hear you debate with the people who complained because it wasn't all one big group.

And I'm not sure who you think was the #2 team to beat. I think my longterm average had just climbed above 5.5 for the first time when DPL started, so I certainly wasn't some powerhouse "beating up" on anyone.

As for whether DPL is a learning experience, I'm here to say it was, very much. I flat-out couldn't have won my first ribbon without the stuff my teammates taught me. And I'd like to think I've also taught them a few things. In fact, that's why we formed our team. Not for the competition per se, but for the sharing and learning. It just so happened that we won a lot.

And we've continued to share and learn together. We never vote on each other's pictures if we've shown them before hand. I'm also on Team USA, and we're doing the same thing.

There's simply no question that discussing photos ahead of time is a fantastic learning experience. On our team, we regularly post more than one version, different editing variations, etc. We all choose what advice to use and what to ignore, but just having it available is huge. And I now have some more friends on DPC.

I do think that perhaps it'd be best to have separate DPL challenges. Yes, it'd mean 6 challenges with ribbon-winners on the home page instead of three. But three isn't some magic number, it's just where things have ended up.

Message edited by author 2008-03-16 03:08:46.
03/16/2008 06:42:29 AM · #95
Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by ZeppKash:

Can you honestly tell me that the previous DPL wasn't like a few pro baseball teams competing with each other while beating up the the 'pick-me-up' game teams?


Absolutely. Did you know there were three divisions? Go look at who won the B and C divisions. I think I'd love to hear you debate with the people who complained because it wasn't all one big group.

And I'm not sure who you think was the #2 team to beat. I think my longterm average had just climbed above 5.5 for the first time when DPL started, so I certainly wasn't some powerhouse "beating up" on anyone.

As for whether DPL is a learning experience, I'm here to say it was, very much. I flat-out couldn't have won my first ribbon without the stuff my teammates taught me. And I'd like to think I've also taught them a few things. In fact, that's why we formed our team. Not for the competition per se, but for the sharing and learning. It just so happened that we won a lot.

And we've continued to share and learn together. We never vote on each other's pictures if we've shown them before hand. I'm also on Team USA, and we're doing the same thing.

There's simply no question that discussing photos ahead of time is a fantastic learning experience. On our team, we regularly post more than one version, different editing variations, etc. We all choose what advice to use and what to ignore, but just having it available is huge. And I now have some more friends on DPC.

I do think that perhaps it'd be best to have separate DPL challenges. Yes, it'd mean 6 challenges with ribbon-winners on the home page instead of three. But three isn't some magic number, it's just where things have ended up.


I agree with everything you say but there lays the problem. If it is okay for the members to use the collaboration as you are, a learning process, the line is blurred and potential problems arise when you have a group of the best photographers on the site using that collaboration as a joint effort to win challenges for their team. Is that fair? Iím not sure?

This collaboration by the better photographers can also be excused as a learning process for them but it is seen by the average user as an unfair advantage.

I think this is one of the problems with the running of DPL2 but there is probably more and I hope we can be informed of what the big issues are.

Message edited by author 2008-03-16 08:02:08.
03/16/2008 06:50:35 AM · #96
Originally posted by frisca:

guys, I don't want to stiffle your voice, but many of the suggestions on how to make DPL better have already been noted when we did evaluations and solicited feedback about DPL1. Our research gathered there is part of the reason we want to change things and part of the reason the DPL hasn't just started up again just as it was!


I'm glad that our feedback has already been noted but we aren't privy to the suggestions made in the surveys.

I thought this thread was another part of the evaluation process?

You guys obviously see problems with the DPL and perhaps these problems are best kept secret but if that is the case please tell use so we can stop speculating and leave it up to you guys to sort it out, otherwise this thread will go on forever without any real outcomes and lots of frustration from us.

Message edited by author 2008-03-16 08:04:01.
03/16/2008 06:51:14 AM · #97
Perhaps DPL2 could adopt a salary cap... I don't know, maybe all willing participants other than captains get put into a pool with a $ value attributed to each person based on current average? Then the captains pick teams from the available pool w/o exceeding the salary cap. Would avoid the "Yankees and Red Sox" verses the rest aspect of DPC1 which many people have commented on, and would get people meeting and working with others they wouldn't normally get to associate with.

Just an idea I had while reading this thread...

Even if it's not adopted for DPL2, it could be modified as a separate "DPC Fantasy League" thing. :)
03/16/2008 08:29:59 AM · #98
Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by ZeppKash:

Can you honestly tell me that the previous DPL wasn't like a few pro baseball teams competing with each other while beating up the the 'pick-me-up' game teams?


Absolutely. Did you know there were three divisions? Go look at who won the B and C divisions. I think I'd love to hear you debate with the people who complained because it wasn't all one big group.


No, i did no know this. I tried to look at the stats from the last DPL, but can't find them. (the only think under the 'league' tab are some 'about' and 'FAQ') My previous statement was my observation from the outside as the league was ongoing.
I am part of the crowd that would like to see it as one big group. One big group of competative teams.

Originally posted by vlado:

a salary cap... I don't know, maybe all willing participants other than captains get put into a pool with a $ value attributed to each person based on current average? Then the captains pick teams from the available pool w/o exceeding the salary cap.

"DPC Fantasy League"


THAT'S what i'm talking about!
03/16/2008 09:27:59 AM · #99
Originally posted by keegbow:

Originally posted by frisca:

guys, I don't want to stiffle your voice, but many of the suggestions on how to make DPL better have already been noted when we did evaluations and solicited feedback about DPL1. Our research gathered there is part of the reason we want to change things and part of the reason the DPL hasn't just started up again just as it was!


I'm glad that our feedback has already been noted but we aren't privy to the suggestions made in the surveys.

...


You can download the survey analysis here.
03/16/2008 10:28:40 AM · #100
Originally posted by ZeppKash:

I tried to look at the stats from the last DPL, but can't find them. (the only think under the 'league' tab are some 'about' and 'FAQ') ...

There's more there, just need to poke around a bit. :-)

DPL Season 1 Teams - Seed Averages
DPL Season 1 Standings
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