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03/11/2008 01:17:44 AM · #1 |
Im just wanted to get into more portraiture, and more event photography. I need to start somewhere though, and notice a few requests for events for non-profit organizations on Craigslist, and other forums. Would there be any cons to this, or does it seem like a good way to build experience/portfolio, while helping out a good cause?
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03/11/2008 01:25:31 AM · #2 |
| I guess if it's a legit organization and wouldn't cost you too much in travel, etc, then why not. Just make sure there is a proper written agreement that both of you can agree on. |
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03/11/2008 08:23:26 AM · #3 |
Casey,
As someone who has worked at a non-profit (art museum) I can tell you that they are probably looking for someone who can work as cheaply (or even free) as possible. If this is not a problem for you, then yes it might be good experience.
Clay
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03/11/2008 09:08:21 AM · #4 |
The few non-profit things I've done have been interesting, but have not led to more work, and they've ALWAYS done more with the images than they agreed to, and NEVER give credit as they agreed to do. Blame it on volunteers who don't care about the details or cheap, greedy orgs, I don't know.
I'm not into helping them unless it helps me, unless it's a cause I believe in. Otherwise I feel like I was taken advantage of.
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03/11/2008 09:17:43 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
The few non-profit things I've done have been interesting, but have not led to more work, and they've ALWAYS done more with the images than they agreed to, and NEVER give credit as they agreed to do. Blame it on volunteers who don't care about the details or cheap, greedy orgs, I don't know.
I'm not into helping them unless it helps me, unless it's a cause I believe in. Otherwise I feel like I was taken advantage of. |
I fully agree. Too often we hear people say "shoot for free because its good exposure", or "it will get your name out there". Chances are, no, it won't. With many of these non-profit events you'll shoot all day long, they then ask you to give them all files, they'll tuck them into some archive box where they'll never see light of day again. In the meantime, you've been far too distracted shooting to network, meet anyone or promote yourself in any way. End of day you're tired and they get free photos. That's all.
Edited spelling.
Message edited by author 2008-03-11 09:18:23.
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03/11/2008 09:19:27 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by idnic:
I fully agree. Too often we hear people say "shoot for free because its good exposure", or "it will get your name out there". Chances are, no, it won't. With many of these non-profit events you'll shoot all day long, they then ask you to give them all files, they'll tuck them into some archive box where they'll never see light of day again. In the meantime, you've been far too distracted shooting to network, meet anyone or promote yourself in any way. End of day you're tired and they get free photos. That's all.
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FWIW, that's true if you make it true. You are donating your time, you get to dictate the terms too. They can ask, doesn't mean you have to provide. So if you do end up feeling taken advantage of, well, you know who to blame.
I've shot for non-profits in the past and done advertising images for them. They asked me to cover events, I told them that wasn't what I wanted to do. I then explained what I did want to do and we came to a mutually useful agreement.
Message edited by author 2008-03-11 09:20:45. |
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03/11/2008 09:29:00 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by idnic:
I fully agree. Too often we hear people say "shoot for free because its good exposure", or "it will get your name out there". Chances are, no, it won't. With many of these non-profit events you'll shoot all day long, they then ask you to give them all files, they'll tuck them into some archive box where they'll never see light of day again. In the meantime, you've been far too distracted shooting to network, meet anyone or promote yourself in any way. End of day you're tired and they get free photos. That's all.
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FWIW, that's true if you make it true. You are donating your time, you get to dictate the terms too. They can ask, doesn't mean you have to provide. So if you do end up feeling taken advantage of, well, you know who to blame.
I've shot for non-profits in the past and done advertising images for them. They asked me to cover events, I told them that wasn't what I wanted to do. I then explained what I did want to do and we came to a mutually useful agreement. |
You're right, Gordon, its up to the photographer to refuse or accept terms that work for them. While I do insist on terms that work for me, I have seen many be taken advantage of because they don't seem to realize they can counter back on any offer. The one non-profit I work with now never gets electronic copies of the images. On their behalf, I make the images available to their participants and I only shoot events that don't conflict with my paid work. They know this and are very happy to have me help out in any capacity. I find myself shifting my schedule to go shoot with them because the arrangement works well for all of us.... and because they're really hot! (Volunteer Firefighters). :D
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03/11/2008 09:31:54 AM · #8 |
I've probably done more non-profit shooting then for profit shooting. My reward has always been the feeling I got for doing something good, and great learning opportunities. I've never had a problem because I tell them they can do what ever they want with the images and ask that they give me credit if they can. It has led to a handful of money making opportunities, but I never followed up on them.
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03/11/2008 09:46:04 AM · #9 |
i do lots of work for non-profits and it's been great for me. not only do most of my non-profits pay something, they are awesome for word-of-mouth referrals. i've gotten a ton of business from doing a few non-profit shoots.
i'm upfront about my pricing, but i have a non-profit discount that i use frequently. they love it when they get a discount, and it's not that much but they jump on it all of the time. i also bill hourly and don't charge for files or prints. they pay me for my time, which is plenty for me and keeps me quite busy.
most of my work has been with community development corporations, but i'm also doing work for United Way agencies and the Red Cross -- all from working my way up the non-profit food chain.
if it's something you want to do, you're going to have to put in some sweat equity to make it work. if you want to control all of the terms of the deal, it's probably not the right angle for you. i just like to take photos, so it's perfect for me. |
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03/11/2008 11:20:54 AM · #10 |
My experience has been their promises are worthless. Their mouths move with good intent, but the reality is something else.
I don't mind helping them, but when they go beyond fundraiser to commercial use, from 'we'll credit you' to putting out a season's worth of event programming with full page photos w/o credit, etc you feel taken advantage of.
It's the way it works - tight budgets, high expectations and an ever changing staff of volunteers cause things to happen that shouldn't. Once the images are in their system, you have no control over them -whether you got paid or not, got a signed contract or not.
The clientele at some of these events are indeed the target market I want, but getting 'them' to know me, remember me, call me, isn't easy if the org never puts my name anyplace - not even a thank you in the program type thing, or the newsletter, or on their website...
Burn me once, shame on me perhaps, but 3 or 4 times with different orgs has taught me to be very very wary, and it seems to be getting even worse the last couple of years. I suspect that's beacuse photos are becoming more of a commodity and less respect is being given to copyright and licensing.
It also doesn't help that the IRS will allow you (person or business) to deduct hard goods you donate, but you can't claim time - yours or an employees. So there is no incentive to shoot and burn. At least with prints you can get something off your taxes for your efforts.
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03/11/2008 11:39:55 AM · #11 |
My feeling is that if it's an event/group that I want to support, I'll be glad to do it (I've done a *lot* of volunteer work in the past, and continue to do so). If not, well... then I am not afraid to say no.
Volunteering should be something that comes from the heart without the expectation of getting something in return.
Message edited by author 2008-03-11 11:41:57. |
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03/11/2008 12:13:36 PM · #12 |
I agree with Alan. I've done some nonprofit shooting, but I did it as a service to the organization, not with any expectation of return. Since they aren't paying me (or aren't paying me enough), I am able to dictate the terms of the shoot. I only agree to do things that are fun for me, and I make sure it's set up in a way so that I can get something for my portfolio.
The images usually have little commercial value for me, so I just give the organization rights to use them as they wish. Most of what I do for the nonprofits is portraits, though, so I do manage to sell a few prints to the subjects. |
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03/11/2008 12:33:26 PM · #13 |
I'm fortunate and happy in life, and I do work for people who are doing good work gladly and well knowing that I don't always have to have the gift that I've been given be about me.
I'm kind of the unofficial photographer for my daughter's cheerleading team, and some of the moms just don't have money to throw around on frivolities like portraits.
Some pay me, some don't have a nickel.
But I have yet to have any work I've been paid for equal the good feelings I get when I watch a mom's head tilt, eyes mist over, and hear that "Awwwwwwww" when I give her a shot that captured her little girl that she can treasure for life.
It doesn't get any better than that.
I've also done some shooting for a non-profit that I'm on the board of directors.....I'm not getting paid as a director, so I'm not getting paid as a photographer, either.
I am doing a wonderful thing on TWO levels.
That sucks, huh?.......8>)
Message edited by author 2008-03-11 12:37:28.
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03/11/2008 04:36:11 PM · #14 |
Thank you for the great input guys. It seems the best thing to do then would be to sign some sort of agreement that ensures I receive credit for anything that is used in print or online. I wouldn't be worried at all about payment or royalties, so long as it is a legitimate charity, which I would be sure to check up on.
Ensuring that they follow the agreement seems like it could be a whole different story.
I like this idea because it would get me some real world experience, and I know it would be for a good cause. Next thing to do is find out if they're willing to hire a newbie :) |
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03/12/2008 05:13:40 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
But I have yet to have any work I've been paid for equal the good feelings I get when I watch a mom's head tilt, eyes mist over, and hear that "Awwwwwwww" when I give her a shot that captured her little girl that she can treasure for life.
It doesn't get any better than that.
That sucks, huh?.......8>) |
It does when I show the Ahhhh image to the electric company and the lady still shuts off my juice.
Volunteering is one thing.
Working cheap for a non profit is another.
Everyone wants something for nothing, including non profits. Remember, non-profit just means they have to spend all their money. The biggest employers in my county are non-profit.
The government is the biggest non-profit there is. Giving to them helps the most people possible. But no, I don't see a line forming for volunteers.
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04/03/2008 01:16:03 PM · #16 |
I voluntarily take photos at local events for a local non-profit. Mostly they like to use some of these in their newsletter (one was used in their calendar). I do ask that they give me credit for the photos under the captions. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.... however I know that when they don't it was not intentionally. I know who puts the newsletter together & I have to remind myself that I need to remind her.
Now, I am also on the board for this group, so I'm presumed the "official" photographer. I don't mind, it's for a good cause that I love, & they do try to get me publicity :)
I'd say make sure they're legit, make sure it's an area/cause that you enjoy (this makes it easier to give them the photos for free!), oh & it's very important to feel comfortable with the group & have good communication.
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04/10/2008 05:03:07 PM · #17 |
Well I have my first charity event coming up next Saturday. It's for a silent auction and brunch event, for about three hours. It's for a couple local women's organizations. Yes, I'm a guy, but I researched them I can still recognize a good cause when i see it :)
It will take place on a nice golf course/country club. I offered my services, but they said they'd be happy to purchase prints. Even then, I wouldn't really put a huge markup on it, and I'd probably use AdoramaPix or Mpix. I did stipulate in my email correspondence that I would need the ability to use images in my portfolio, as well and be given credit if any of them were used for future print or online display. Should I try to find a written contract and use that?
My equipment is as follows:
Nikon D200 w/2 batteries and 8GB CF
Nikon 50mm 1.8
Tamron 17-50mm 2.8
SB-600 Flash
They basically want me to document the event, and take candids and environmental shots. Anyone have any other tips or suggestions?
thanks for any help
Message edited by author 2008-04-10 17:04:02. |
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04/10/2008 05:16:03 PM · #18 |
I did a shoot for a company that was launching a new product line for a charity event (i've no idea how they both equate), but basically they said they wanted 20 pics for some posters and web use and i'd be credited, which is cool. I wasn't being paid so i said as long as i'm credited clearly then it's all good.
They sent me an email an hour after the shoot telling me to send them the pictures in the post the next day because they need them for their printing run or something similar. I said that couldn't be done because of the repro work involved. Then they said i "promised" to deliver them the next day, which is total BS, and they also said that I said I would give them 40 pics... which again, is BS.
So, we went back and forth like this with me saying if they want the pics, it's on my time scale since i work 9-5 and it's not just 'take the pics, email, bam' there's a bit more to it and i had some 200 pics to go through... they got pissy, so i said i wanted nothing more to do with them because it started off as one thing, and they don't understand i did this for free out of my own time and borrowed my friends gym for the shoot, at expense to him. They then accused me of moving the goalposts and deliberately breaking promises. I didn't budge and i said "if you want the pics, it's £300". Eventually, it was half the pics for half the money which sounded fair.
They gave me the whole "there's more work" line too, but don't buy it. It's total BS. They try and sucker you in with promises and then use you and your skills for all they can get, and then move on to someone else.
Set a price, a delivery date, the amount of pictures, copyright details (who owns what), model releases if needed and if you can use the images in your portfolio. If you don't take care of this beforehand you'll get a crappy deal and you'll never see your name anywhere.
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04/11/2008 01:48:47 PM · #19 |
Some things to keep in mind when doing work for non-profits.
1) Non-profit does not mean "poor"! Many non-profits have huge annual budgets and pay in house creative staffs nice salaries. If they as you to shoot for free ask them how much "for free" work their managment or administration staff do.
2) If they give you the "you can deduct it" line beware. You can't use your time or value of the images as deductions on your taxes. You can only deduct actual costs you incurred. Things like mileage, props, film, etc. (actual expenses). The time you spend shooting and processing or the usage value is not deductable.
3) If they use the "there will be more work down the road", again beware. This one is easy to get around. Just say, "Oh, if there will be more assignments along with this one I'll give you discounts on the follow up shoots." Likely this won't fly because they don't have more work, they are just trying to get more for less.
4) If you want to shoot for a non-profit because you feel passionate about their cause that's great, giving is a wonderful thing. If you do it hoping for more paid work to come from it, you are likely to be disappointed.
My $0.02
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04/11/2008 07:29:53 PM · #20 |
They didn't start out specifically asking for volunteers, they responded to my craigslist ad asking about rates and what not. They even mentioned that they would purchase prints, so I wouldn't even give up the negatives. (I wouldn't mark-up the prints much, just enough to cover my time)
I simply offered my services for free because 1) It was a fundraiser for charity 2) I have never shot an event before, so who knows if they photos will be good :) and 3) I need experience and portfolio pictures.
So, we'll see how it goes. I imagine using a flash would annoy the hell out of people, so I'll probably just stick with a lower aperture and try to be as unobtrusive as possible.
Thanks for the comments, any other tips are definitely welcome. |
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04/11/2008 10:07:34 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by AllgoodPics:
Some things to keep in mind when doing work for non-profits.
1) Non-profit does not mean "poor"! |
Non-profit just means that any money earned has to be put back into the organization rather than go into the pockets of private or public investors -- as AllgoodPics points out, it does not mean that they have no earnings.
A good example of a wealthy non-profit organization is the Cleveland Clinic Foundation (a major hospital system based in Cleveland, but with branches in Florida and soon the Middle East). It has an operating revenue of greater than $4 billion dollars and net earnings (income minus expenses) of greater than $300 million (2006 figures). There are also many non-profits which have no money at all, and which truly depend on free or discounted help.
So a little background investigation into a non-profit organization's finances may help you decide what sort of prices you want to offer them. |
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