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03/09/2008 01:34:51 PM · #126 |
I think you guys are all missing the point. The whole debate about Objectivity v. Subjectivity is a red herring imho, or rather a moot point because it's almost philosophical in nature.
The voters at DPC from what I've seen are like young kids. They don't get anything complex or scary, and they really like and respond to friendly or easy colourful images. They're also illogical and seemingly chaotic en masse. Asking a fuzzy cat in sink type photographer to be objective or insightful is pointless.
This is life at DPC. Like it or lump it (read: Art doesn't appear to do well at all here, and this is a challenge site, so therefore if you feel strongly about your artistic vision/output/integrity and don't want to sell out to do well in voting, then perhaps this isn't the place for you).
Anyone ready for another citrus fruit dropped in a tank? I rest my case your honour!
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03/09/2008 01:46:06 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
This is life at DPC. Like it or lump it (read: Art doesn't appear to do well at all here, and this is a challenge site, so therefore if you feel strongly about your artistic vision/output/integrity and don't want to sell out to do well in voting, then perhaps this isn't the place for you).
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I kinda like to see those folks stick around since it does add variety to the challenges. :-) |
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03/09/2008 03:26:22 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
I kinda like to see those folks stick around since it does add variety to the challenges. :-) |
Variety is good - but there is a difference between well executed artistic type shots that might not be popular, and poorly executed shots passed off as art. For me personally I don't mind what anyone's direction is, I just like the execution to be good. It's just that some people's defense mechanism is to defend poor photography as art rather than trying to improve through understanding. When they get militant about it I think they could be described as trolls...
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03/09/2008 03:32:56 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
I think you guys are all missing the point. The whole debate about Objectivity v. Subjectivity is a red herring imho, or rather a moot point because it's almost philosophical in nature.
The voters at DPC from what I've seen are like young kids. They don't get anything complex or scary, and they really like and respond to friendly or easy colourful images. They're also illogical and seemingly chaotic en masse. Asking a fuzzy cat in sink type photographer to be objective or insightful is pointless.
This is life at DPC. Like it or lump it (read: Art doesn't appear to do well at all here, and this is a challenge site, so therefore if you feel strongly about your artistic vision/output/integrity and don't want to sell out to do well in voting, then perhaps this isn't the place for you).
Anyone ready for another citrus fruit dropped in a tank? I rest my case your honour!
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Umm. I won't say that you're missing the point, but it seems to be the 'friendly or easy' side of things that's complaining about the voting. The argument is, for once, inverted.
not that everyone who has colourful pictures is on the same side. I really think there's an illusory divide at DPC between the 'artistic' crowd and the ribbon winners. Yes there are differences, and DPC does reward the colourful and simple much more than the difficult, but given that it's based on a mass voting system, it would be naive to expect otherwise.
Message edited by author 2008-03-09 15:36:02. |
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03/09/2008 03:35:06 PM · #130 |
Some of this discussion is about words, some about philosophy (nothing wrong with that, pace  quasimojo), but a great deal about the way we express ourselves.  zarniwoop and posthumous have put the issue into perspective; and I really think  total_novice has pricked me where I needed it by saying not to deny the validity one's emotional response. But on the whole I am still afflicted with cognitive dissonance by what supernaught writes.
Eloquently, I think - no "whoms"), he says, "I've found a lot of wonder ...Each photo is an offer of one's soul black as coal, bright as the sun, empty of creativity, or bursting with it that I might never understand, or that I might completely empathize with." (Well, a bit of hyperbole: my soul is often sicklied o'er with the pale blur of unfocus). So I have trouble connecting the will to suspend this wonder and possible enlightenment for the sake of an unattainable objectivity.
It is puzzling. I do hope that one of things that may change is his opinion that his photos are never going to mean as much to someone else as they do to himself. Welcome to the magic of subjectivity.
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03/09/2008 03:38:20 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
I kinda like to see those folks stick around since it does add variety to the challenges. :-) |
Variety is good - but there is a difference between well executed artistic type shots that might not be popular, and poorly executed shots passed off as art. For me personally I don't mind what anyone's direction is, I just like the execution to be good. It's just that some people's defense mechanism is to defend poor photography as art rather than trying to improve through understanding. When they get militant about it I think they could be described as trolls...
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Is this a well executed shot?
If it's a shot of a cat, maybe not but this is a shot about light (my interpretation, anyway)...and that hazy morning feeling when your cat is trying wake you up. I know that feeling....experience it everyday and I'd say based on that it's a technically perfect image.
Doesn't look like the voters got the point.
Message edited by author 2008-03-09 16:28:47. |
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03/09/2008 03:38:54 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by tnun:
I do hope that one of things that may change is his opinion that his photos are never going to mean as much to someone else as they do to himself. Welcome to the magic of subjectivity. |
By the same token, some photos that he's taken which mean very little to him, might mean a lot to someone else.
Sorry if that's stating the obvious, but I feel it's a mistake to assume that the photographer is always having to justify himself to the critic: sometimes it's the other way around. |
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03/09/2008 04:13:10 PM · #133 |
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03/09/2008 04:20:00 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
there is a difference between well executed artistic type shots that might not be popular, and poorly executed shots passed off as art. |
It's not always so easy to tell them apart. Take this photo, for instance:
I thought it was a well executed artistic type shot, but not all the voters and commentors agreed with me. |
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03/09/2008 04:24:33 PM · #135 |
The 1 voters have been brought to task on these forums so many times - it wont change and they aint going to tell you why they did it. Personally I dont give a fig why people give out a 1 or a 10 for that matter (and some of the shots that get a 10 make me wonder!)
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03/09/2008 04:30:37 PM · #136 |
It's unfortunate that some valid points made by the Original Poster, Scalvert, and a few others were lumped together with the ill-conceived "subjectivity is dishonest" philosophical musings. Anyway, if there's one thing I'm taking away from this thread, it's a re-affirmation of the idea that relying solely on voters to inform one's artistic growth is a fool's game.
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03/09/2008 04:34:07 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by MikeOwens:
The 1 voters have been brought to task on these forums so many times - it wont change and they aint going to tell you why they did it. Personally I dont give a fig why people give out a 1 or a 10 for that matter (and some of the shots that get a 10 make me wonder!) |
Well, the OP asked a simple question and this thread brought a lot of interesting viewpoints to light on why people give low votes to otherwise popular images.
I don't think anyone is trying to change the low vote thing but in trying to understand it some other important issues came out as a by product of the discussion.
I assume smithma got his answer and then some.
Originally posted by citymars:
if there's one thing I'm taking away from this thread, it's a re-affirmation of the idea that relying solely on voters to inform one's artistic growth is a fool's game. |
True dat!
Message edited by author 2008-03-09 16:37:47. |
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03/09/2008 04:52:14 PM · #138 |
Just to clarify -When I said 'it wont change' I was referring to the people who give out the 1's, not to any change with site rules etc.
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03/09/2008 04:58:14 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Is this a well executed shot?
If it's a shot of a cat, maybe not but this is a shot about light (my interpretation, anyway)...and that hazy morning feeling when your cat is trying wake you up.
I know that feeling....experience it everyday... |
Being owned by two cats I fully agree.
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...and I'd say based on that it's a technically perfect image.
Doesn't look like the voters got the point. |
I got it, but if I had voted on this image, I had given a maximum of 5 points. The image evokes a certain feeling, but that doesn't make it in any way a technically well done image or (so called) art, the opposite is the case, no matter what was intended by the author. So why rate it higher than the lots of images in the same challenge that were done better AND evoke emotions?
Message edited by author 2008-03-09 16:59:11.
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03/09/2008 05:02:30 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
there is a difference between well executed artistic type shots that might not be popular, and poorly executed shots passed off as art. |
It's not always so easy to tell them apart. Take this photo, for instance:
I thought it was a well executed artistic type shot, but not all the voters and commentors agreed with me. |
Your post challenge comment says it all, I think:
Originally posted by posthumous:
very good job simulating a candid! |
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03/09/2008 05:10:45 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by eyewave:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Is this a well executed shot?
If it's a shot of a cat, maybe not but this is a shot about light (my interpretation, anyway)...and that hazy morning feeling when your cat is trying wake you up.
I know that feeling....experience it everyday... |
Being owned by two cats I fully agree.
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...and I'd say based on that it's a technically perfect image.
Doesn't look like the voters got the point. |
I got it, but if I had voted on this image, I had given a maximum of 5 points. The image evokes a certain feeling, but that doesn't make it in any way a technically well done image or (so called) art, the opposite is the case, no matter what was intended by the author. So why rate it higher than the lots of images in the same challenge that were done better AND evoke emotions? |
I agree there are far better takes on this type of shot and technically speaking doing it well isn't easy. It's as hard to do in equal and opposite way as compared to any of the technically savvy images that ribbon...probably harder but folks here aren't trained in that way.
These images really stroke the imagination a little more, compared to a sharp shot that pretty much does all the thinking for you.
Originally posted by MikeOwens:
Just to clarify -When I said 'it wont change' I was referring to the people who give out the 1's, not to any change with site rules etc. |
I'll tell ya...I'll nail people with a 1 if I think they're serving it up. I usually have to be in a bad mood, as well which is pretty often so brace yourselves. LOL ;)
Message edited by author 2008-03-09 17:13:00. |
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03/09/2008 05:21:11 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Is this a well executed shot?
...
Doesn't look like the voters got the point. |
Even I know that this line of argument is in dead horse territory for around here! Someone said it to me - you can't expect the voters to 'get' your photo, or be upset when they don't. If there's a failure in the process it's either in your expectations or your assumptions of the voters.
Look, to me that's a fuzzy cat photo. I know you intended something differently, and maybe you achieved it, but to me it's still a fuzzy cat. There are also other creative or artistic mechanisms to provide greater contrast on the cat (as you mention in that photo's comments re: light and dark) or the surround other than very soft focus...
So, yes, it's a well executed shot for what you had intended, but no, I didn't interpret it as well executed because I wasn't aware of your intention (and a photo shouldn't need supporting evidence or a prologue!). Even if I had been I'm not sure that the soft focus really does anything for the subject matter or light/dark other than to confuse the viewer.
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03/09/2008 05:22:13 PM · #143 |
IMO, a 1 is clearly an emotional response and has nothing to do with taste or technicals.
Here's an example that shows it very well.
 (1,1,1,1,1,1) Six ones!!!
(sorry to pick one of my images but my portfolio is full of images kicked by emotion)
Putting things that way you should consider normal and acceptable receiving a "1" from someone just because he hates the predominant yellow color in the image, or just because he hates blur images, or "eye candy images", or whatever. Since DPC's voting method is a democratic system, where the most advanced viewer has the same power as a newbie, we should accept these votes with kindness even knowing that something is tremendously wrong.
ETA: Correct English
Message edited by author 2008-03-09 17:29:05. |
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03/09/2008 05:25:56 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I thought it was a well executed artistic type shot, but not all the voters and commentors agreed with me. |
Funnily enough, so did I - but I didn't expect it to get slated quite as hard as it was. In my world that's an incredibly artistic photograph...but I hadn't been at DPC for all that long then...whereas now I know that when I submit something that isn't eye candy, or dark, or edgy, or anything basically not mainstream...that I have to lower my expectations. That's what I meant earlier by like it or lump it - if people's artistic drive or direction is so strong that they won't change their submission style to suit the DPC voters, then this place isn't right for them.
I'm slowly learning the ways of DPC. I'm also learning that I must shoot stuff for myself and not just for DPC challenges (i.e. the way I used to live pre-DPC) so that I don't become an eye candy monkey and retain my own relaxed enjoyment of photography.
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03/09/2008 05:32:38 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by De Sousa:
IMO, a 1 is clearly an emotional response and has nothing to do with taste or technicals. |
Then we should ban people who have the wrong emotional response :) (that was sarcasm btw)
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03/09/2008 05:35:37 PM · #146 |
(pssst, Nick - that fuzzy cat shot isn't Pawdrix' - he just likes it. It belongs to  krnodil. She does some really cool stuff. And I do like the light across the cat shot, but I'm weird!) |
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03/09/2008 06:33:13 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
That's what I meant earlier by like it or lump it - if people's artistic drive or direction is so strong that they won't change their submission style to suit the DPC voters, then this place isn't right for them.
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People who don't change there submission style to suit DPC voters are still in the right place they are simply expressing a style and should expect that it won't have mass appeal and will more then likely score lower.
The more astute of these submitters acknowledge this and move on to the next challenge but then we have the habitual complainers who think we should all conform to there own artistic style and values..... The sooner we all accept that we are all different and see things differently then the better this place will be.
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03/09/2008 06:50:17 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Is this a well executed shot?
If it's a shot of a cat, maybe not but this is a shot about light (my interpretation, anyway)...and that hazy morning feeling when your cat is trying wake you up. I know that feeling....experience it everyday and I'd say based on that it's a technically perfect image.
Doesn't look like the voters got the point. |
Yup. It's got far more going for it than my entry in the challenge that's for sure. It's sad that so many people seem to lose the ability to see when they get older. This photo depicts something that should be impossible. That is it depicits both the physical (time/space) and metaphysical (state of mind/presence) world. In essence, it's a living breathing image.
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03/09/2008 06:54:40 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
I think you guys are all missing the point. The whole debate about Objectivity v. Subjectivity is a red herring imho, or rather a moot point because it's almost philosophical in nature.
The voters at DPC from what I've seen are like young kids. They don't get anything complex or scary, and they really like and respond to friendly or easy colourful images. They're also illogical and seemingly chaotic en masse. Asking a fuzzy cat in sink type photographer to be objective or insightful is pointless.
This is life at DPC. Like it or lump it (read: Art doesn't appear to do well at all here, and this is a challenge site, so therefore if you feel strongly about your artistic vision/output/integrity and don't want to sell out to do well in voting, then perhaps this isn't the place for you).
Anyone ready for another citrus fruit dropped in a tank? I rest my case your honour!
N |
I agree with your points in principle. It is true that this site is not "into" artsy style photos. Yes, they can be "gotten away with" IF the shot is technically well done.
Sadly, this does leave a lot of us who don't own any fancy flash, lighting, reflective and other "professional" type equipment or software and editing skills, very much "behind the eight ball" then, doesn't it?
Artistic flare and creative interpretation should be let into these challenges by voters. Unfortunately, only the "stock shot" and "studio style" shots with lots of color, are the only ones that fare well in here most often! That also lends itself to great equipment and editing skills too!
And, yes.....seeing another citrus fruit dropped into a tank (no disrespect to the photogs who have brilliantly done this meant...they are beautiful shots!) is more than I can handle. And, we won't get into insects on flowers or flower shots themselves! *sigh* |
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03/09/2008 06:59:39 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
That's what I meant earlier by like it or lump it - if people's artistic drive or direction is so strong that they won't change their submission style to suit the DPC voters, then this place isn't right for them.
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People who don't change there submission style to suit DPC voters are still in the right place they are simply expressing a style and should expect that it won't have mass appeal and will more then likely score lower.
The more astute of these submitters acknowledge this and move on to the next challenge but then we have the habitual complainers who think we should all conform to there own artistic style and values..... The sooner we all accept that we are all different and see things differently then the better this place will be. |
So, am I reading this to say then, that we should either "conform" to technical genius shots, giving up artistic flare or, shut up and take the low scores if we stray outside the "stock shot box"?
Again, that lends itself as several others have pointed out to the idea that we'll be seeing more and more technically perfect citrus fruit, flower and bugs and objects dropped in liquid shots.....just done with better angles and higher quality lighting and editing techniques. |
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