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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Who is handing out the lowest scores possible? NSFW
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03/08/2008 01:32:09 AM · #1
Maybe this has been discussed before, but I have an issue. Almost every picture in every challenge has at least 1 "1". I don't understand why these photos deserve the lowest of the low score available. Let's take the most recent free study challenge for example.

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Clearly a fantastic photo. Was it better than every other photo in the challenge? Maybe, maybe not. Obviously it's a good photo because it took the blue ribbon in this particular challenge. Why then did someone give it a 1? How many twos did it get? 2... Out of the comments we can see that everyone thought it was a great picture.

So where are the comments from the people who handed out the lowest scores? What about the picture was a total failure? Please offer some suggestions from your vast knowledge of photography that determines that great photos are complete trash.

I think people who leave a 1, 2, or 3 should be forced to give a comment on why they voted the way they did.

03/08/2008 01:57:42 AM · #2
I do feel that it would be nice to receive a comment on why they thought the picture deserved such a low vote but I don't think requiring a comment is the solution. Some people are not comfortable commenting on photos, especially in a negative manner, and they should still be allowed an opinion and a vote. It can be frustrating but that is the nature of the beast. I noticed that you have cast 2400+ votes and have 13 comments given. Have you ever given a three or below without a comment? If so then you are guilty of the very thing for which you are frustrated, change can start with you and how you go about voting and commenting.
03/08/2008 01:58:15 AM · #3
Originally posted by smithma:

I think people who leave a 1, 2, or 3 should be forced to give a comment on why they voted the way they did.

Yes, I would second that. Would that just make a "4" be the new "1", maybe?
03/08/2008 02:16:04 AM · #4
Not to take away from the OP's topic.

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This photo didn't even place in the top twenty of it's challenge (it was close) last year, but it received ZERO 1's, 2's, or 3's. I think this is what ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' smithma is talking about?!

Edit to correct punctuation...

Message edited by author 2008-03-08 02:18:27.
03/08/2008 02:17:18 AM · #5
Originally posted by trevytrev:

I noticed that you have cast 2400+ votes and have 13 comments given. Have you ever given a three or below without a comment? If so then you are guilty of the very thing for which you are frustrated, change can start with you and how you go about voting and commenting.


That is true. I don't comment very often. When I see something that I feel I can comment on I try to offer some suggestion. I very rarely hand out ones, and I think that when I do the photo is off subject and executed poorly. I'm no expert, but I do try to at least think about why a photo gets the score I give it.

Most of my votes come from back in 2004. I had a different attitude then and after a while I got frustrated and left DPC. I have come back with a renewed interest in photography and I see the challenges as good ideas for photos rather than a competition that I'm probably not going to do very well at.

I don't expect everyone to comment, and maybe you're right, forcing people to comment isn't necessarily the answer. I just want people to think about why they are giving something a 1. Maybe ask themselves "Is this photo poorly executed off topic and generally bad?" or "Is this the worst I've seen in this challenge?"

03/08/2008 02:22:40 AM · #6
Originally posted by Venom:

Not to take away from the OP's topic.

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This photo didn't even place in the top twenty of it's challenge (it was close) last year, but it received ZERO 1's, 2's, or 3's. I think this is what ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' smithma is talking about?!

Edit to correct punctuation...


That is interesting. I looked at the top 3 in that challenge and there weren't any 1, 2, or 3s there either. That would be perfect if all challenges were like that. The lowest scoring photos will be obviously lacking. I expect a few bad scores on my own photos. But to see a 1 on a photo that is beautiful in execution is just wrong.
03/08/2008 02:44:32 AM · #7
Originally posted by smithma:

Originally posted by Venom:

Not to take away from the OP's topic.

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This photo didn't even place in the top twenty of it's challenge (it was close) last year, but it received ZERO 1's, 2's, or 3's. I think this is what ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' smithma is talking about?!

Edit to correct punctuation...


That is interesting. I looked at the top 3 in that challenge and there weren't any 1, 2, or 3s there either. That would be perfect if all challenges were like that. The lowest scoring photos will be obviously lacking. I expect a few bad scores on my own photos. But to see a 1 on a photo that is beautiful in execution is just wrong.


Beautiful to you, ugly, unappealing, DNMC to someone else.
03/08/2008 02:49:37 AM · #8
One of the always frustrating issues. My personal theory on this is twofold:

1) Some people vote strictly on personal taste and even if they think the photo of the Sydney Opera house is excellent, they vote totally on their personal taste and not on the image quality. It's their prerogative, whether or not we like it.

2) Those same people do not read the forums and are therefore unaware of this whole deal.

I agree with the above: Set the example by commenting. Believe it or not, you don't have to win ribbons to be effective at commenting. Most others here will appreciate it, and you will learn more from analyzing others photos than from just clicking the "5".

Message edited by author 2008-03-08 02:52:33.
03/08/2008 03:17:41 AM · #9
the 1 vote on a winning photo could be the result of keyboard voting. Trying to press 10 instead of 0.
03/08/2008 03:35:45 AM · #10
Or it could be someone trying to lower the scores of potential ribbon winners to give themselves a better shot at winning.
03/08/2008 03:43:52 AM · #11
I observed the same thing. Already posted in the comments to my recent ribboning image:

Originally posted by eyewave:

If you have a look at the top 5 of almost any challenge, you will notice that every shot that looks like a typical dpc ribboning shot ( i.e. strong impact, tack sharp, well exposed, mass appealing subject) gets more 1s and 2s than shots that are not as easily recognizable as ribbon candidates, For some examples see the 4th in "Black and white", the 3rd, 4th and 5th in "Pet Portrait", 3rd, 4th and 5th in "Leading Lines", 2nd in "Peace" etc. So obviously there are some people that try to identify a future ribboner and vote it down by purpose.


But ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' marbo could also be right., but I doubt it, same thing happened before the possibility of keyboard voting.
03/08/2008 03:56:17 AM · #12
My own view is that DPC does have some people who think that it is either 'funny' or 'making a statement' to hand out 1's to great photos (I actually dont think they do it to boost their own position because they must realise that enough people are going to vote properly for it to only have the most marginal of effects - as is demonstrated by the fact that 'moving canvas' still won the blue)

Of course there is always the question of personal choice (although the DNMC issue does not come into consideration in a FS) but even if you genuinely hate the subject matter then from a purely technical perspective you should be able recognise that this picture is worth - at the very very least - a 3.

People talk about 'trolls' a lot on DPC and in many instances I think they confuse this with the fact that it is possible that their shot may be not that great and people may not like it. However scoring this a 1 (imo) is not being a troll it is being and arse and is the DPC equivalent of the type of people who run their keys down the side of nice cars because they dont have one themselves...petty puerile and a damning inditement of their own inadequacies

Wooooooo bit of a rant on a saturday morning.....
03/08/2008 05:35:31 AM · #13
The problem is the difference between objective(undistorted by emotion or personal bias)voting, and subjective (taking place within the mind and modified by individual bias) voting. People whom vote subjectively aren't capable of critical thought, because they are biased to an emotional degree on what is what is appealing to them, rather than what may otherwise be an expertly composed photo, fitting within the challenge constraints.

It's not hard to be objective, or capable of critical thought without bias. My girlfriend likes the band U2, I don't. But I can see that they are talented musicians, and wouldn't critique them based on my tastes, and would in fact - review them as an excellent band, with great melodies and hooks.

In order to foment more objectivity, one would have to censor subjective opinion. We all like to dance around the dirtiness of censorship, by blithely suggesting tolerance for "opinion", or saying, "that's the way they feel", while we ignore the fact that some have the skill and eye necessary to be objective, like it's being humble to do so. It is not. It's being submissive to people with personal biases, based on some deranged emotional attachment, and limited scope for what constitutes skilled photography.

The only opinions that should be explored are whether or not, and to what degree do we rate ones compositional skill in a given challenge submission. I personally rated 5 (6?) "tilted" submissions as 10's, and several 8's and 9's regardless of the fact that the images weren't congruent with my tastes, which they emphatically were not. Well, maybe one was...

But I guess the point is: don't put too much stock in the scores when some obviously biased individuals have a complete lack of objectivity. They look for 5 seconds, click, and move on.
03/08/2008 05:47:50 AM · #14
Beautiful to you, ugly, unappealing, DNMC to someone else.

This is a perfect example of subjective opinion, if I may politely point out. Ugly, unappealing : purely, factually, emphatically, and by definition emotional, subjective opinion. This is fine, as I too found the above mentioned photo personally unappealing. But should we apply that to our score, when it's obviously a neatly composed, and otherwise fine composition?

I mean, once you make the judgement as to whether or not it meets challenge criteria, objectively, I might add, is it so hard to see what the photographer intended, and how they framed and composed the image?
03/08/2008 10:17:15 AM · #15
People should not be forced to justify their feelings about an image. If you do force people to do that, then you are going to get either less voting or it will be gibberish, nonsense and useless comments. And on the flip side, there are a lot of images I see that I wish I knew what people where thinking, drinking or smoking to vote them so high. I think there are also those that vote a 5 when they really want to vote a 3 as it is... just so they don't offend someone.

From what I've read, the SC's are suppose to look for patterns of abuse. And if someone is leaving a whole lot of low scores, that should show up so they can look into it. If they start forcing comments, what's going to be next? Banning people because they didn't leave a comment that meet somebodies idea of what is satisfactory?

Mike
03/08/2008 10:36:47 AM · #16
Originally posted by supernaught:

But should we apply that to our score, when it's obviously a neatly composed, and otherwise fine composition?



Yes. A turd is still a turd no matter how technically perfect the shot is though probably more a 5 or 4 in my book rather than a 1 or 2.

If the image does not connect with the viewer, it doesn't connect, period.
03/08/2008 10:42:55 AM · #17
I am going to have to STRONGLY agree with Smithma. That anybody voting a 3 or less should have to leave a comment on why such a low score.

For me, when I vote, I will leave comments for the best 10 photos that I thought did the best, and as well, leave comments for the lowest scoring photos(3,2,1), why I scored them low, and give some constructive criticism as well.

And I believe Eyewave is correct as well.
I believe there are people on this site that actually do look to find ribbon winner potential and give it 1,2,3s. With the intention of lowering the score.
(Possibly because they are in the challenge and want other pictures to do worse then theirs)
03/08/2008 10:53:13 AM · #18
Originally posted by jessy_pesce:

I am going to have to STRONGLY agree with Smithma. That anybody voting a 3 or less should have to leave a comment on why such a low score.


You could argue that people should be forced to comment on pictures they give a 9 or a 10 too, as we often see 9's and 10's on very low scoring pictures, But apparently that's OK...

Forcing people to comment is no solution imo. And everybody is entitled to their own opinion - even if it's very different from the majority.
Objective voting is (at least in my opinion) not possible - we all have our favourite styles/subjects and in the same way we have styles/subjects we dislike. And our voting will of course reflect that, which is OK by me.

03/08/2008 11:13:46 AM · #19
For my vote, this was the best picture in the group; and it did not rank high. I always leave comments on pictures I rank 10's.

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If the photographer wants a critique on a picture ranked 1, 2, or 3, they should request it themself...after all its their picture.

03/08/2008 11:14:48 AM · #20
Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Beautiful to you, ugly, unappealing, DNMC to someone else.


It might be ugly, unappealing, DNMC to someone else, but it is clearly not a 1. ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' supernaught points this out. People are not voting objectively. "Ew! I hate old buildings... 1."

I don't know what the answer to the problem is and I know that you can't force everyone to be objective and serious about voting. It just irritates me that ones are being handed out on photos that are clearly better than that. If the photo is clearly a blue ribbon it will probably take the blue. A few ones aren't going to change that. However someone who is much farther down the line sees the low scores and thinks that they don't have what it takes. Maybe they give up and stop taking pictures.

I know some people would say that anyone giving up after a little rejection needs to grow up and start living in the real world. People are mean and don't offer any explanation as to why they feel the way they do. I just think as a community we could be better than that and offer an explanation. Maybe try to leave a comment when delivering ultra low scores. I'm not perfect at it either, but I'm trying to do better. I already keep the ones to a minimum, now I'll do my best to leave more comments. I hope more people will do the same.
03/08/2008 11:16:07 AM · #21
Originally posted by smithma:

Originally posted by cpanaioti:

Beautiful to you, ugly, unappealing, DNMC to someone else.


It might be ugly, unappealing, DNMC to someone else, but it is clearly not a 1.


To you maybe but to someone else this does constitute a 1.

Everyone is different.

Message edited by author 2008-03-08 11:16:27.
03/08/2008 11:18:31 AM · #22
Originally posted by dsmil:

For my vote, this was the best picture in the group; and it did not rank high. I always leave comments on pictures I rank 10's.

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If the photographer wants a critique on a picture ranked 1, 2, or 3, they should request it themself...after all its their picture.


These types of pictures are most precious to those in the picture as they have the best connection. For those you do not know the people in the photo, it's probably thought of just another portrait. The technicals are good here, hence the decent score. To score much higher an image has to have broader appeal.
03/08/2008 11:18:59 AM · #23
Originally posted by smithma:


I think people who leave a 1, 2, or 3 should be forced to give a comment on why they voted the way they did.

Your average vote to date would indicate you may have given a 1, 2, or 3 on occasion, yet you've only left a total of 13 comments so far. I think what you're asking, in reality, is if someone is going to vote a 1, 2, or 3 on a gorgeous, potential ribbon winning photo, that they leave a comment.
03/08/2008 11:22:08 AM · #24
Originally posted by jessy_pesce:

I am going to have to STRONGLY agree with Smithma. That anybody voting a 3 or less should have to leave a comment on why such a low score.


It used to be like that and was (recently I think) dropped as a waste of time. A few votes are not changing the results too much IMO.
03/08/2008 11:36:08 AM · #25
Originally posted by Melethia:

Originally posted by smithma:


I think people who leave a 1, 2, or 3 should be forced to give a comment on why they voted the way they did.

Your average vote to date would indicate you may have given a 1, 2, or 3 on occasion, yet you've only left a total of 13 comments so far. I think what you're asking, in reality, is if someone is going to vote a 1, 2, or 3 on a gorgeous, potential ribbon winning photo, that they leave a comment.


That is true. I have left 1s, 2s, and 3s in the past. I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of handing out a low score without a comment. I will try to do better in the future with commenting.

I do however try to be objective in voting. I might HATE pictures of cats (I don't particularly, but this is just an example), and that might affect my vote. If the photo is technically flawless however I will give it a higher score on technical merit.

Maybe a voting system where you give photos scores on different aspects. 1. Subject Matter, 2. Technical, 3. Originality. The final score of the photo would be an average of the separate categories. Of course then we would probably see scores like Subject matter - 1, Technical - 10, Originality - 1.
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