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03/06/2008 01:18:32 AM · #1
I think, that there should be novice challenges - having Pro's submitting alongside Joe's is a nice way to show off (or think about how many ways you suck), but in order to preserve the self esteem of the budding photographer, I believe they should have their own exclusive section. That way, everybody has a chance to learn - and perhaps do well on a challenge for a change! Everybody knows that there are Photogs out there like Laurus who will blow everybody out of the water with their photos, so why not even things up a little? It would be kinda like the bunny slopes at a ski resort... get a chance to hone your skills (and perhaps stand up on your own two legs) before you start doing the black diamond runs. know what I mean?
Thoughts?
03/06/2008 02:00:41 AM · #2
This has been discussed before with many different opinions on the subject, check here Multiple divisions thread and here Attracting new members thread as both touch on the subject. My questions to you would be, how do you determine the pros from the joes? Second, do you really think that you will be honing your skills any differently then if the "pros" were in the challenge? To me it seems more of a way to make people feel good about themselves then it does about learning photography. jmo. Trevor~

Message edited by author 2008-03-06 02:08:16.
03/06/2008 02:28:19 AM · #3
We've had non-ribbon winning challenges in the past...I think...and it might be nice to get a Challenge together where anyone with an average under 5 has participation...and we have had Master Challenges before so I see no reason why we couldn't have an "also ran" Challenge..might be fun to see if there are "diamonds in the rough" when the competition is not so steep...
03/06/2008 07:58:02 AM · #4
I think we all have something to learn from the pros and the serious amateurs on this site. If you have all the 5's posting together, then all you'll get is 5's down the line. Constructive criticism can't come from average photographers who have never reached a point where their work is above average and stands out from the rest because of technique or creativity. Quality photographs is what motivates me, not the standard flower shot or landscape. When I do come across an image that stimulates my senses and gets my creative juices flowing, most of the time, if not all of the time, the photograph is of exceptional quality and taken from a POV not usually seen in other photos. That's what stimulates me.

I may want to see more quality images but I don't want to see more 'winners' or more coloured ribbons. jmo

But I'm new here and still haven't grasped the entire feel of this community yet and my opinion may not matter to many. That's ok too.

jac
03/06/2008 08:05:01 AM · #5
Originally posted by tfarrell23:

We've had non-ribbon winning challenges in the past...I think...

...and we have had Master Challenges before ...

Just a clarification for the newer folks around here...

It's not plural. Only one "Masters' Challenge" has been held that I can find. Masters' Free Study 1

As for non-ribbon winning challenges, I couldn't find any in the challenge history/archives, but I thought there was one. ???
03/06/2008 08:23:24 AM · #6
I like the way things are now too. Even the "hot" photogs sometimes enter an image that gets trashed in voting. I can think of a couple of recent examples, but don't want to remind them by posting specifics. My personal scores are from 6.25 to 3.7, with the worst one coming right behind the best in the last two challenges that I entered.
A lot about getting a decent score here is good judgment about what will do well, which you learn from mistakes like that.
The best way to get better is to interact with those who are already there, and learn all you can from the experience.
Entering the side challenges is a great way to get a lot of feedback and comments which can help with the learning curve, and the comments made and received are a nice reward. You make friends here that way too. : )
Some of the best photogs have less than 5 averages here on DPC. They shoot wonderful and creative images, which may not have the DPC "technical wow" factor that gets the high votes.
One other thing, I don't think I would want to see 2 or 3 pages of ribbon and watered down ribbon shots on the home page.
03/06/2008 08:59:50 AM · #7
Originally posted by JR:

Constructive criticism can't come from average photographers who have never reached a point where their work is above average and stands out from the rest because of technique or creativity.

Like ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' MelonMusketeer said, I like things the way they are. However, I do think it's possible to offer insight to (and criticism of) a photograph without being a photographer oneself. It probably means more to the photographer though if it's coming from a respected source.
03/06/2008 09:38:21 AM · #8
Originally posted by citymars:

Originally posted by JR:

Constructive criticism can't come from average photographers who have never reached a point where their work is above average and stands out from the rest because of technique or creativity.

Like ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' MelonMusketeer said, I like things the way they are. However, I do think it's possible to offer insight to (and criticism of) a photograph without being a photographer oneself. It probably means more to the photographer though if it's coming from a respected source.


I agree totally, I don't like the way I worded that now that I reread it.
03/06/2008 12:34:48 PM · #9
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by tfarrell23:

We've had non-ribbon winning challenges in the past...I think...

...and we have had Master Challenges before ...

Just a clarification for the newer folks around here...

It's not plural. Only one "Masters' Challenge" has been held that I can find. Masters' Free Study 1

As for non-ribbon winning challenges, I couldn't find any in the challenge history/archives, but I thought there was one. ???


ALL my point was that they have made efforts to accommodate certain factions of the site population..and I saw no reason why the SC couldn't throw a bone to newbies..and let them see what they are capable of without the added competition...(now wondering why I even put in my 2 cents)....
03/06/2008 12:46:00 PM · #10
Originally posted by tfarrell23:

let them see what they are capable of without the added competition...


I honestly think there is a fault in your logic. If we were in a tournament with many rounds of people being eliminated etc. Then yes doing a "low scorer challenge" would help the low scorer go further in the competition. But here, everyone submits a photo at the same time. Why do you think that baring the high scorers would improve the photos that the low scorers would send anyway? Do you think people go about taking a picture thinking "anyway scalvert will enter this challenge, so I got no chance so let's enter a crappy photo"??

I for one, like the logic of putting in my photo and then looking at the outcome, like looking at the solution of a puzzle. And honestly, the challenges where the photos are the less good are the challenges that I find the most disappointing, because then I learn less...

Now there is argument I could consider: if the challenge was limited to low scorers or recent members, then maybe -maybe- pictures with scores of 5.x would receive more comments (especially if it was specifically called for).

Message edited by author 2008-03-06 12:47:44.
03/06/2008 12:47:05 PM · #11
Originally posted by tfarrell23:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by tfarrell23:

We've had non-ribbon winning challenges in the past...I think...

...and we have had Master Challenges before ...

Just a clarification for the newer folks around here...

It's not plural. Only one "Masters' Challenge" has been held that I can find. Masters' Free Study 1

As for non-ribbon winning challenges, I couldn't find any in the challenge history/archives, but I thought there was one. ???

ALL my point was that they have made efforts to accommodate certain factions of the site population..and I saw no reason why the SC couldn't throw a bone to newbies..and let them see what they are capable of without the added competition...(now wondering why I even put in my 2 cents)....

Well, now you're up to 4 cents. :-D

I wasn't dissing your comments...sorry if it came across that way. I understand what you're saying and it's a fine suggestion. Just meant to clarify that the Masters and No-Ribbon events were a one time deal.
03/06/2008 12:47:05 PM · #12
Well as a 'new guy' to the site. But not so new guy to photography. I will say
that to do well on dpchallenge is not a true measure of ones skills. So people
don't like your stuff. It happens. Ever walk through an art gallery and wonder
what the heck the guy was thinking when you look at his exhibit. It happens here
too. I am not out for public approval, I just want a reason to make images that
doesn't involve 30 of my relatives being in the way. So this place gives me that.
I do miss the school days when it was all my buddies and I against one another.
Then there was always plenty of feedback. Here, not so much.

So... having said all of that. I think a 'Newbie' challenge would be a good idea. But
I would probably structure it such that it was more of a 'training' challenge. So
lets say, your new to the site, and have posted less then ten, or maybe even 5 images
to the challenges. Then you would be eligible for the 'Newbie' challenge. And those
would would vote, would be the pro's and non-newbies. But with the requirement that
they must leave feedback on every image. It would serve as a true learning forum instead
of a hit and miss.

My first submission was just to figure out how this place works. I didn't do well, but
with three pieces of feedback I at least knew what three people didn't like about it
and that was helpful.

Well... that is what I think. YMMV

Linc

Message edited by author 2008-03-06 12:47:41.
03/06/2008 12:51:36 PM · #13
A simple way to do it is have 1 challenge every 6 months for who ever has joined in the last 6 months.
03/06/2008 12:58:37 PM · #14
Originally posted by JulietNN:

A simple way to do it is have 1 challenge every 6 months for who ever has joined in the last 6
months.

In 6 months a person could have entered 58 challenges...
03/06/2008 01:24:58 PM · #15
I think having challenges only open to a certain group of people is not a good idea. I think one of the most interesting things about DPC is that every person interprets the challenge their own way and takes a picture accordingly. The more people entering a challenge, the interesting the results will be.

If you have a challenge open to newbies only, you are missing out on the perspective a more seasoned photographer has. Personally, looking at the pictures of other photographers has taught me a lot. Sometimes I'll have an idea for a challenge and i'll be like "that kind of sucks" but then i see the ribbon winners for the challenge and they had a similar idea, but they executed it way better. This makes me want to imitate their result, and makes me go through a creative process that I normally would not follow.

I think that having challenges for newbies if like having a handicap on a competition. If i enter a challenge (read competition, fight, etc) i wanna be on the same playing field as everyone else. If my picture gets destroyed, that encourages get better. Winning a ribbon knowing that none of the good photographers entered the challenge would feel rather empty to me. This is just my opinion though.
03/06/2008 02:21:49 PM · #16
Just because a photo ranks higher by being placed in a limited field does not make it a "better" photo, but that can create the illusion of such. I don't see the point of comparing my photo with anything other than the entire field of entries on the same topic, by everyone who was eligible and chose to enter.
03/06/2008 03:19:59 PM · #17
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

A simple way to do it is have 1 challenge every 6 months for who ever has joined in the last 6
months.

In 6 months a person could have entered 58 challenges...


It doesnt really matter, does it??

How about every three months then

It could be a welcome to DCP challenge for Newbies, doesnt matter what skill they have. That way just them have a go at it. I dunno, sounds like a good idea when i say it in my head (the other voices agree too!)

Message edited by author 2008-03-06 15:21:54.
03/06/2008 03:23:23 PM · #18
Originally posted by JulietNN:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

A simple way to do it is have 1 challenge every 6 months for who ever has joined in the last 6
months.

In 6 months a person could have entered 58 challenges...


It doesnt really matter, does it??

How about every three months then

It could be a welcome to DCP challenge for Newbies, doesnt matter what skill they have. That way just them have a go at it. I dunno, sounds like a good idea when i say it in my head (the other voices agree too!)


Who is to determine who is a "newbie"? Just because a person has joined the site recently doesn't mean they have no or limited experience with photogrpahy. "Pro" shooters join DPC all the time. Who would police such a challenege and say "no, you can't participate because you're not newbie enough"?
03/06/2008 03:24:54 PM · #19
No that is what I mean, doesnt matter if you the best of the best or the crappiest, if you joined within the new 3 month period, you get a welcom challenge just for them.

It would also sort of be cool to see who has joined too and them having some face time.

So all the "New Signer upers" get to say hi and have a challenge

Message edited by author 2008-03-06 15:25:53.
03/06/2008 03:27:45 PM · #20
When you join, I think and belive that you get this HUGE crash course on photogrpahy.

I wasnt thegreatest of photographers, never have been never will be, but I am sure as hell better than I was when I started here.

You learn so so so much from all the experts, the tutorials, the forums and looking at amazing photos and bad photos, it is never ending. And for that, priceless
03/06/2008 03:28:53 PM · #21
Originally posted by JulietNN:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

A simple way to do it is have 1 challenge every 6 months for who ever has joined in the last 6
months.

In 6 months a person could have entered 58 challenges...

It doesnt really matter, does it??

How about every three months then

I was just pointing out that at this length of membership (6 months), some people certainly wouldn't be considered a "Newbie" anymore. "Newbies" to me should be someone with 5 or less challenge entries.

I'm not really in favor of this myself as I think it would water down the merit of a ribbon, similar to what ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' keibo84 mentioned earlier:

Originally posted by keibo84:

i wanna be on the same playing field as everyone else. If my picture gets destroyed, that encourages get better. Winning a ribbon knowing that none of the good photographers entered the challenge would feel rather empty to me.


This sentiment has been voiced also when the consideration of divisions came up (too many ribbons).
03/06/2008 03:32:14 PM · #22
Originally posted by idnic:

Who is to determine who is a "newbie"? Just because a person has joined the site recently doesn't mean they have no or limited experience with photogrpahy. ...

Yikes! I spent WAY too long typing my last post.

Cindi brings up a good point. How many times have we seen someone new to this site (entering their first challenge) walk away with a ribbon? It happens. Certainly not a "newb" to photography for that to happen (at least I hope not). :-)
03/06/2008 03:33:09 PM · #23
Oh I see what you mean.
And can see your point1

Still think it would be fun to see all the new joiners as some don't participate in the forums etc

Back to the drawing board!!!
03/06/2008 03:37:48 PM · #24
I would say that the concept is there, but all wrong. Limiting by a time frame, as others mentioned, would still get the "pros". I say (very quitely) that there should be "Novice" challenges....if you have an average score less than x.xx then you can participate.

but it shouldn't have the normal ribbons like blue, yellow, red....it could have no ribbons what so ever....or green, purple and orange....winners don't even have to be included on the front page.

yeah, you miss out on those eye dazzling photos but it gets the "Novice" photographer more excited.
03/06/2008 03:47:48 PM · #25
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by tfarrell23:

We've had non-ribbon winning challenges in the past...I think...

...and we have had Master Challenges before ...

Just a clarification for the newer folks around here...

It's not plural. Only one "Masters' Challenge" has been held that I can find. Masters' Free Study 1

As for non-ribbon winning challenges, I couldn't find any in the challenge history/archives, but I thought there was one. ???


We have had the following Invitational challenges in the past.

Dreams: If I'm not mistaken it was members that had more comments given than received.

Low Tech : For members that had not ribboned.

Impressionism: You can only submit to this if you have earned three or more ribbons.

Masters' Free Study 1: Only members who have placed 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in 2 or more challenges are able to participate in this challenge.

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