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02/20/2008 06:11:20 PM · #1 |
I just joined a couple of days ago, looking to get some constructive criticism and looking to learn.
Now, with all this talk of trolling (whatever that is?) and manipulative voting, I'm second guessing my decision... but I do want to give it a chance. I was a bit surprised that DPC shows real time vote monitoring. Perhaps they should hide the vote until the final results or only allow people to vote once. Whatever. I hope people vote (and comment) according to their standards and consciences, regardless.
I've read what I could on how to vote (though a lot of this info seems pretty buried). I'm still unclear whether I should vote on an absolute standard or on a bell curve. Should I shoot to have my vote average maintain a certain magic number? It's a bit confusing. For example, some photographs are really nice but don't relate well to the specific challenge. Others appear to be entered simply as a joke or just to get something in the challenge without a whole lot of thought as to their quality. The titles are often a bit off the wall and detract from an otherwise nice shot, and some are phrased in such a way as to legitimize an entry that probably wouldn't stand on its own. Hmmm, what to do?
The Voting Rules (//www.dpchallenge.com/challenge_rules.php?RULES_ID=13) are heavy on how to disqualify but light on guidelines/suggestions for evaluating.
Any guidance appreciated. Bottom line: I want to become a better shooter, and maybe help others too.
pmk
Message edited by author 2008-02-20 18:33:32. |
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02/20/2008 06:17:14 PM · #2 |
All I can say (and I am relativly new too) is understand the subject of the challenge before you go frollicing into voting on the photos. I think too many of us amateurs just hop into it without having the foggiest clue as to what to look for. But I have learned quite a bit in the past few months and everyone is helpful.
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02/20/2008 06:19:20 PM · #3 |
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02/20/2008 06:20:51 PM · #4 |
Basically, vote according to your own guidelines. Some base their voting on technical ability, others on aesthetic appeal, others simply on gut-reaction. Personally I base my scores on an absolute - so in some challenges I may give out 4, 5, or more votes of 10, and in another challenge the highest vote I might give could be a 7; others use a bell-curve. Neither is right, neither is wrong.
I wouldn't give to much credence to the current round of troll threads. They are a regular feature of the forums, yet few can agree on the definition of a troll let alone on whether they actually exist. There is a system in place (I have no idea as to its sophistication) to discount votes fom users who are voting in a way that suggests a clear attempt to disrupt the process, this kicks in at the end of voting, so you occasionaaly see your vote go up or down slightly at that point.
Enjoy DPC, it is a great site - and judging by how you are doing in your first challenge, you will be an asset to it, too. |
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02/20/2008 06:27:21 PM · #5 |
my advice is just to be consistent, in the end its up to you as to whats most important, technicals, fitting the challenge, the whole package, personal tastes etc. Everyone votes different.
Oh and what Sara said about the troll threads, they come up all the time, basically everything is fine. :) |
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02/20/2008 06:31:22 PM · #6 |
Welcome! You've summed up the voting variables quite nicely. I've been here off and on for quite awhile (never too far away, though) and voting has always been an on-going topic discussion. I have no magic formula and my average vote given is around 5. I've been trying to vote higher but because of all the things you've mentioned, I seem to stay in the 4 to 7 range. I stopped voting on member challenges because the post processing got pretty extreme for my taste. I sometimes sit out on voting if my entry is doing poorer than I anticipated or I'll wait and vote after I've re-evaluated my photo and realized that the voters were probably right. ;)
It is a great learning site with many awesome photographers participating. You'll figure it out. You've got the right attitude. Good luck! |
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02/20/2008 06:46:27 PM · #7 |
I'm fairly new here also and before I was comfortable with voting I had to go back through some of the challenge archives to get a sense of what the norms are here for scores and comments. I also learned several useful photo lessons doing that process.
One thing that's very clear to me at this point is that commenting is far more important than the number I end up giving a photo. It lets the photographer know what I'm seeing and it forces me to study the picture more closely, giving it a fair shake as it were. There have been many times when I hit 4 or 5 as a first reaction but then, as I thought about what to comment about, I've had "ah-ha" moments about some cool feature(s) that made some photos worthy of bumping up a point or two. I wish commenters were given 2x weight in scoring since I know my votes are much better thought out when I comment.
Just my 2 cents. |
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02/20/2008 07:04:25 PM · #8 |
Being one of the folks who has sometimes posted a humorous photo of questionable quality, I can understand your confusion. (My bread entry, for instance, was aiming for humor and comments, rather than a high vote. I hit my goal on that one.) As has been said before, there are no absolute standards. I tend to vote primarily on quality, but if a photo shows a very creative idea, I may bump it up a point or two for that. Likewise, I may knock off a point or two if I feel it has no relationship to the challenge theme. I also do a lot of commenting, and as has already been said,the strongest learning experience to be had here comes from making yourself analyze others entries.
This FAQ thread may help some. |
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02/20/2008 07:08:51 PM · #9 |
I don't think it matters how we vote. The winners are predetermined by other criteria. Probably long before the challenges are even announced.
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02/20/2008 07:19:23 PM · #10 |
From previous threads:
This is how I try (very hard) to vote:
1 > a technically (focus, exposure, balance, effects, lighting, sharpening, saturation, colour, cast, evidence of artifacts etc.) incompetent photo or an entirely unintelligible one (sometimes due to image size), an 'offensive' one to civilized nature or (even) a technically apt photo which 'clearly' demonstrates a 'failure of feeling'
2 > a technically lacking photo with little or no perceptible artistic (choice of subject, composition, perspective, manner, emotional energy and range, etc.) merit or interest, even when generously considered; a somewhat 'offensive' photo or a gross and inappropriate sentimentalization of feeling in the context of the challenge; the pursuit of cliché without room for even a latent interpretation (irony, allegory, metaphor etc.)
3 > a photo of mixed or questionable merit, both artistically and technically; a technically 'acceptable' one without marked artistic or journalistic interest; a sentimental or symptomatically 'commercialized' image designed to 'sell' a product or (worse! -of a person) of reasonable or considerable technical merit; a potentially 'interesting' or 'promising' photo (subject matter/perspective) with 'severe' technical flaws and/or without 'clear' intent or direction; a technically flawless image void of emotion and lacking sensory stimuli
4 > a 'pretty' photo reminiscent of many; an otherwise captivating image with one or more clearly distracting elements, either within the capture itself or via border and/or title; a technically accomplished photo relying predominantly on an idea, subject and/or title for impact; an artistically 'promising' capture with clearly noticeable technical defects, compositional issues or incongruous aesthetics; a technically 'stunning' capture otherwise bare of 'feeling' or aesthetic 'sense'
5 > a 'good' photo by most standards; one that communicates capably without necessarily teaching or exhilarating us; an artistically interesting photo pointing an unusual view, perspective or matter, even if it suffers from distinct technical 'flaws'; a technically 'stunning' capture with limiting human or artistic 'range'
6 > a remarkable image, well executed by most standards while allowing for some technical shortcomings not easily prevented or corrected; an ordinary or simple shot, perfectly timed or 'found' that tells an old story in a new way; a very personal take, a 'fresh' controversy with commotive qualities, but aesthetically 'exciting'; an image imitative within a 'classic' fashion, but well executed (i.e. landscape/portrait etc.)
7 > an outstanding photograph fit for both study and pleasure, while allowing for minor technical shortcomings, an accomplished imitation of a mode of seeing or rendering drawn or alluding to another medium including enduring snapshots or candids of remarkable human interest
8 > same as 7, but one that stimulates awareness and taxes the senses, technically accomplished, with near-imperceptible flaws, if not entirely flawless; clearly 'innovative' photographs pointing a little known interest, direction or delight
9 > same as 8, technically without a fault, but a photo which commotes 'perceived' reality to the point of restlessness and action
10 > an enduring photo that challenges the order of gods and the world, one holding its own alongside any other.
On (Challenge) Topicality
Limiting potentially immeasurable choices to a defined subject or a chosen category of photography, really, should stimulate creativity, not hamper it. Topics, IMO, are or should be there for the benefit of the photographer, not for the untaxed glee of some voters swinging a bat.
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture.
I have seen and continue to see perfectly good photographs here penalized for exceeding the appreciative capacity of voters to recognize an entry for the poignant topicality it may demonstrate. If I consider the photo remarkable (artistically arresting), I may just decide to award the highest mark possible in the faint hope to compensate for a predictably overall devaluation. |
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02/21/2008 02:37:25 PM · #11 |
Thanks for the (re)post, zueszen. Nicely put. It might be nice to for the powers that be make your comments more readily available.
best,
pmk |
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02/22/2008 10:20:39 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I do not penalize entries for failing to meet the challenge. I may award a higher score to a unique interpretation or to a finesse I recognize, but I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture. |
I have to say I am in a little confusion, the official Voting Guidelines state "consider the challenge topic when voting, and adjust your score accordingly." in one part but then says "You may not: give an entry a lower score because you believe it violates the Challenge Rules."
Lets say the challenge is "Squares" and someone submits a photo of a Circle, I personally would rate the photograph by itself and then knock a point or two off for not meeting the challenge but I don't know if that is the right thing to be doing or not. If you ignored the fact that the photo doesn't meet the challenge then it becomes a little pointless having a challenge in the first place doesn't it? I am open to different interpretations but in this case a circle is nothing like a square.
I guess to a certain degree as long as my voting is consistent throughout the pictures then it doesn't really matter too much (I make sure I vote on all entries) |
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02/22/2008 10:38:18 AM · #13 |
one - bad
ten - good
up to you beyond that.
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02/22/2008 11:11:12 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by bobonacus:
...Lets say the challenge is "Squares" and someone submits a photo of a Circle...I am open to different interpretations but in this case a circle is nothing like a square... |
I'm not so sure. Is there an irony or a cultural context I may have missed or simply not know of? Is it some hyperbolic jest? Have I considered the title, the whole of the presentation or did I just see a subject, etc?
However you vote, as Gordon said, is up to you. I view the purpose of topical challenges as a means to challenge a photographer's creativity. I, for my part, cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture.
Message edited by author 2008-02-22 11:37:01. |
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02/22/2008 11:16:59 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by bobonacus:
I am open to different interpretations but in this case a circle is nothing like a square. |
It's one of those 'it depends' things. Topologically a circle and a square are identical, so there could be contexts where a circle could well be meaningfully entered into a challenge that called for squares.
Some town squares are circular too. Look at the town square in Siena in Italy for example (Piazza del Campo) Well, not really perfectly round, but certainly a square that isn't square and more of a circle.
Absolutes are difficult.
Message edited by author 2008-02-22 11:32:53.
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02/22/2008 11:24:04 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by bobonacus:
...Lets say the challenge is "Squares" and someone submits a photo of a Circle...I am open to different interpretations but in this case a circle is nothing like a square... |
I'm not so sure. Is there an irony or a cultural context I may have missed or simply not know of? Is it some hyperbolic jest? Have I considered the title, the whole of the presentation or did I just see a subject, etc?
However you vote, as Gordon said, is up to you. I view the purpose of topical challenges a means to challenge a photographer's creativity. I, for my part, I cannot, in good conscience, penalize something or someone for a fault that may lie within me and not with a picture. |
There is always someone, in every challenge you enter, who will not "get" your connection to the challenge (DNMC). No matter how obvious you make the connection, or you think you've made the connection. I have my own terms for those people. I call them literalists. I don't know if that's a real word because I'm too lazy to look it up. Then there are people who "find" a connection to the challenge, even if it isn't there. I call those people interpreters. I personally consider myself somewhere in between but tend to lean more towards the interpreter. And I vote appropriately within my category. ;P |
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02/22/2008 11:35:39 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
one - bad
ten - good
up to you beyond that. |
Concise and accurate! The most important thing about voting or commenting is to not worry about it. Worrying about it is the worst thing you can do. Just go with the flow and don't worry about rules or standards or what have you, just be honest and refrain from having any hidden agendas and everything's groovy. |
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