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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Honestly, what's the big deal about Gay Marriage?
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02/26/2004 11:01:46 AM · #151
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

wow this thread got big fast. i have not read every post i have read enough to see a pattern.
that pattern is that those who are against gay marraige are christians or religious somehow (even if there post dosnt say it, a quick look at there profile tells alot).
these are the kinds of reasons i will NEVER belive in any organized religions god or support any organized religion. they cast judgement on everyone they feel like and claim righteousness.


That's absurd, you're obviously bitter from past experiences and encounters which provides no justification for accusing I or anyone else here of casting judgements. I'm not picketing to keep same-sex couples from being acknowledged by gov't or telling them they're going to hell just for being gay, no, I am defending the biblical definition of the term marriage.

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 11:03:47.
02/26/2004 11:09:14 AM · #152
Originally posted by muckpond:



OK, look.

you're never going to understand it until you've lived it. you just won't.

walk a mile in my shoes before you criticize my "lifestyle" (which was not a choice -- why would someone choose to be persecuted constantly?) or tell me how to live.

people in this world need to take a break from lecturing everyone and instead think -- just for a few minutes -- what it might be like to be someone else. please.

and while you're at it, please think about how discriminating against a group of people that you probably have little to no contact with anyway is going to better your life.

one more thing: this whole argument about how marriage has been "historically" defined as one man plus one woman is PROBABLY due to the fact that before a very few decades ago the very acknowledgement of my sexuality would have gotten me fired, ostracized, beaten, shunned, torched or otherwise physically or emotionally maimed.

being able to go public was a HUGE struggle! and it still is for many, many people who are far less lucky than i. now that we've gotten to a point where our differences are in the open and, in many cases, embraced (i.e. Queer Eye), it's only natural to take things to the next level. the ability to love someone is a basic, fundamental human right. the ability to publicly declare that love should be a right as well.

i feel like i'm just flinging emotions out here. the fact is that everyone has such a huge gut reaction -- one way or the other -- to this topic. all i'm asking is for people to go beyond that first reaction and really think about what's at stake.

but a lot of people won't, so i'm back to


I don't want to belittle your feelings and experiences in anyway Muckpond, but the assumption that most people against the homosexual lifestyle don't have much contact with actual gay people is fairly inaccurate. Besides that, we all have our struggles, being gay is a hard one, but so is dying of cancer, heck so is having a bad name like "Mike Oxlong"..if it's not one thing you're suffering for, it's another. Just don't feel like you're trudging through this life alone, mmkay?
02/26/2004 11:37:39 AM · #153
Yes I'm sure you are very opinionated!!! That's in response to GoldBerry saying he could tell us all how it ought to be.

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 11:39:52.
02/26/2004 11:45:28 AM · #154
absurd would be believing and basing your thoughts and opinions on what 'faith' dictates and disregarding fact to do so.
02/26/2004 11:55:04 AM · #155
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

absurd would be believing and basing your thoughts and opinions on what 'faith' dictates and disregarding fact to do so.


wow, that's a burn if I ever heard one. .. that still doesn't account for why you would accuse me of judging someone when I haven't said anything remotely to that affect. Once again, you sound very very bitter...and honestly, you pushing all your negative religious experiences on my shoulders is like an African American lynch mob showing up at my door because I'm white therefore making slavery all my fault. You may want to familiarize yourself with facts, earlier someone was ranting that ALL Christians are bigots, well, you're not a Christian but bigot would be a word I might use to describe you right now....yes, that was a burn as well. Go team go!

Edited to add burn.

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 12:01:27.
02/26/2004 01:23:00 PM · #156
Not to be repetitive, but don't use religion as an excuse to be a bigot.

The bible says sex without the intent to procreate is wrong. Does that make god gag too? If so I'd bet most of us has made him gag. Let's make a constitutional ammendmendment on that.

Among the seven deadly sins: Greed, Lust, Gluttony... How many of us has broken one of those today?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (isn't that in the bible too?)

Hypocrisy!

Also, is it choice??? Do a quick research on how many teenage boys kill themselves every year simply because they are gay. Many of them from religous familiys where they were told they were wrong and were going to go to hell. If it's a choice, why would they chose death over simply changing their mind?
02/26/2004 01:23:35 PM · #157
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I'm a sinner, we all are..no man woman or child who exists today on this planet aren't. [sic]


Originally posted by GoldBerry:

that still doesn't account for why you would accuse me of judging someone when I haven't said anything remotely to that affect.


- Mousie, leaving it at that
02/26/2004 01:27:03 PM · #158
I also find *this* clever little turn of phrase quite the morning refresher:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

African American lynch mob


- Mousie, ever on the lookout for irony
02/26/2004 01:28:15 PM · #159
Originally posted by GoldBerry:


I don't want to belittle your feelings and experiences in anyway Muckpond, but the assumption that most people against the homosexual lifestyle don't have much contact with actual gay people is fairly inaccurate. Besides that, we all have our struggles, being gay is a hard one, but so is dying of cancer, heck so is having a bad name like "Mike Oxlong"..if it's not one thing you're suffering for, it's another. Just don't feel like you're trudging through this life alone, mmkay?


let me just clarify something. i celebrate the fact that i'm gay. i don't view that in and of itself as a struggle. the struggle is getting others to understand that it's OK!! my life (not "lifestyle," which is a mis-applied term) and how i live it should have absolutely no effect on how you live yours. that's all these people want: to live their lives as they choose and have all of the benefits and rewards (and penalties) as the next group.

your comparison of being gay to having cancer just proves to me that you're not thinking of this they same way i am. "oh, those poor gay people...." no. ask 1,000,000 gay people if they'd be straight if they could and i'm sure you'd get very close to 1,000,000 "no"s. and the few that say they would are probably saying that because they're sick and tired of being ostracized, or thought of as having some affliction.

let's face it. marriage is an artificial social construct. it has nothing to do with love or breeding. you are able to do both of those things outside of a marital structure, and millions of people do. billions, even. "marriage" is a public declaration of commitment to one other person. period. the only benefit that one truly derives from marriage is that they've established a relationship that is within the societal norm.

SOCIETY has co-opted marriage to further mean other things like permission to have children, permission to visit one another in the hospital, permission to file joint tax forms, etc. RELIGION has co-opted marriage to mean something like a union in the eyes of god. THOSE are the forces that have re-defined marriage, and that's what this whole argument is about.

there are plenty of non-religious, non-breeding married people out there. there are also lots of people who are in love and have children and haven't gotten married. if it's their right to choose the structure of their relationships like that, why shouldn't that be my right as well?
02/26/2004 01:30:33 PM · #160
Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I'm a sinner, we all are..no man woman or child who exists today on this planet aren't. [sic]


Originally posted by GoldBerry:

that still doesn't account for why you would accuse me of judging someone when I haven't said anything remotely to that affect.


- Mousie, leaving it at that


The idea of sin didn't originate with me. Stating fact [from my point of beliefs] is not a judgment.
02/26/2004 01:32:43 PM · #161
Originally posted by louddog:



The bible says sex without the intent to procreate is wrong. Does that make god gag too? If so I'd bet most of us has made him gag. Let's make a constitutional ammendmendment on that.


The Bible doesn't say that, it says sex outside of marriage is wrong, completely wrong, and does make God quite upset. Sex within a marriage is sacred and was only seen as dirty by Roman Catholics who were trying to make Mary appear 'pure' until her end..like staying a virgin made her EXTRA pure or something. But it's wrong....
02/26/2004 01:36:51 PM · #162
Originally posted by muckpond:

i celebrate the fact that i'm gay. i don't view that in and of itself as a struggle. the struggle is getting others to understand that it's OK!!


Hear hear!

I wouldn't change my life one bit. Although I don't take *pride* in being gay any more than I'm proud to be right handed, I take *extreme pleasure* in being who I am, and I'm a gay man. *I* don't have a problem with myself, or being gay. It's not a cancer. I don't need sympathy. I want respect.

- Mosuie
02/26/2004 01:39:30 PM · #163
Originally posted by Mousie:


- Mosuie


Mousie's french cousin has come to visit!
02/26/2004 01:39:53 PM · #164
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I'm a sinner, we all are..no man woman or child who exists today on this planet aren't. [sic]


Originally posted by GoldBerry:

that still doesn't account for why you would accuse me of judging someone when I haven't said anything remotely to that affect.


- Mousie, leaving it at that


The idea of sin didn't originate with me. Stating fact [from my point of beliefs] is not a judgment.


The idea of prejudice didn't originate with me. Stating fact [from my point of beliefs] is not a judgment.
02/26/2004 01:41:19 PM · #165
Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:


I don't want to belittle your feelings and experiences in anyway Muckpond, but the assumption that most people against the homosexual lifestyle don't have much contact with actual gay people is fairly inaccurate. Besides that, we all have our struggles, being gay is a hard one, but so is dying of cancer, heck so is having a bad name like "Mike Oxlong"..if it's not one thing you're suffering for, it's another. Just don't feel like you're trudging through this life alone, mmkay?


let me just clarify something. i celebrate the fact that i'm gay. i don't view that in and of itself as a struggle. the struggle is getting others to understand that it's OK!! my life (not "lifestyle," which is a mis-applied term) and how i live it should have absolutely no effect on how you live yours. that's all these people want: to live their lives as they choose and have all of the benefits and rewards (and penalties) as the next group.

your comparison of being gay to having cancer just proves to me that you're not thinking of this they same way i am. "oh, those poor gay people...." no. ask 1,000,000 gay people if they'd be straight if they could and i'm sure you'd get very close to 1,000,000 "no"s. and the few that say they would are probably saying that because they're sick and tired of being ostracized, or thought of as having some affliction.

let's face it. marriage is an artificial social construct. it has nothing to do with love or breeding. you are able to do both of those things outside of a marital structure, and millions of people do. billions, even. "marriage" is a public declaration of commitment to one other person. period. the only benefit that one truly derives from marriage is that they've established a relationship that is within the societal norm.

SOCIETY has co-opted marriage to further mean other things like permission to have children, permission to visit one another in the hospital, permission to file joint tax forms, etc. RELIGION has co-opted marriage to mean something like a union in the eyes of god. THOSE are the forces that have re-defined marriage, and that's what this whole argument is about.

there are plenty of non-religious, non-breeding married people out there. there are also lots of people who are in love and have children and haven't gotten married. if it's their right to choose the structure of their relationships like that, why shouldn't that be my right as well?


I could except your point of view and move on if you didnt' use the words "LET'S" like because you believe it, so should we all. If I had said that, being a Christian, people would freak out calling me names like bigot [we've been over that] and judgmental, accusing me of trying to force my close minded CHristian views on everyone else. "let's face it. marriage is an artificial social construct" you state that like a fact, when it's really another opinion. It's just painful to see others ganging up and infuriated about small-minds when they themselves appear to suffer from the very same infliction which fuels their indignation..do you get what I mean? I'm not intentionally bashing what you said, but the underlying irony I felt needed to be commented on.
02/26/2004 01:42:41 PM · #166
Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by Mousie:


- Mosuie


Mousie's french cousin has come to visit!


Hehe, apparently my l33t signature skills are deteriorating, I didn't even *add* one to my last post!
02/26/2004 01:43:35 PM · #167
Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by muckpond:

i celebrate the fact that i'm gay. i don't view that in and of itself as a struggle. the struggle is getting others to understand that it's OK!!


Hear hear!

I wouldn't change my life one bit. Although I don't take *pride* in being gay any more than I'm proud to be right handed, I take *extreme pleasure* in being who I am, and I'm a gay man. *I* don't have a problem with myself, or being gay. It's not a cancer. I don't need sympathy. I want respect.

- Mosuie


"I want respect." I don't respect straight people simply because they're straight. Are you saying I should know your strengths and challenges and personality just by knowing you're gay and respecting you for that? Respect is earned, and I don't know you at all, thus far all I know is that you're gay and obviously have no respect for me because I'm a white, straight, christian.

LOL and I retract the comparison to cancer since no one seemed to get what I meant.

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 13:44:55.
02/26/2004 01:48:41 PM · #168
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

It's just painful to see others ganging up


Two gay men with the same opinion is a gang? If one of us lives or moves outside of the USA, does that make us an international terrorist organization?

Orange Alert!
Orange Alert!

- Mousie, the classic agnostic gay boy scout
02/26/2004 01:50:42 PM · #169
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I don't respect straight people simply because they're straight.


I respect straight people simply because they're human.

- Mousie, wondering if this is too easy
02/26/2004 01:52:37 PM · #170
Mousie, you are MY new hero.
02/26/2004 01:53:06 PM · #171

sorry, I made this post and decided it's pretty irrelevent and now I can't delete it :-( so please "move on, nothing to see here"

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 14:04:47.
02/26/2004 01:56:21 PM · #172
Originally posted by Mousie:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:

I don't respect straight people simply because they're straight.


I respect straight people simply because they're human.

- Mousie, wondering if this is too easy


That's a good reply, finally. So does that mean you respect me and my views? Cause thus far all you've given me is total flack for stating what my beliefs are and what they're based on. Thus far, you've taken it apon yourself to completely disregard anyone else's opinions that aren't correlated to yours. I'm feeling light headed from all the hypocracy, oh wait, or maybe it's just that there's NOTHING in my head. Meh, either or.

P.S. I'm wondering if you went home last night telling people about this narrow-minded b*tch that was on DPC yesterday? [being me of course] Because other than thinking "wow, he really hates me" I've really had no other bad thoughts about the entire conversation. Do you think we're arguing? I don't see it that way...I'm asking because I'm actually curious.

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 14:08:39.
02/26/2004 02:13:54 PM · #173
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

It seems you're just looking for anything to retort negatively on, but hey, whatever floats your boat.


This from the person who deliberately edited a burn *into* a post that had already been written. Please tell me *specifically* where I'm being pointlessly negative. I feel that on the whole I have been overwhelmingly positive, optimistic, and have gone out of my way to demonstrate respect for the *person* if not the *ideas* of everyone involved.

You on the other hand have said that I make God gag, that I am a sinner, that I 'obviously' don't respect straights, whites, or Christians, that I'm a hypocrite (even after your complaint about negativity!), and that that, in my last post, I've *finally* had my first 'good' reply. All directly pointed at me, no ambiguity.

Who here can see the difference between disagreeing with someone's ideas and respecting them as a person?

- Mousie
02/26/2004 02:22:22 PM · #174
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

Once again, you sound very very bitter...and honestly, you pushing all your negative religious experiences on my shoulders is like an African American lynch mob showing up at my door because I'm white therefore making slavery all my fault.


Huh? Is there a gay mob at your door?

The problem that most people have is that you and archial are saying how everyone else ought to live, no, not ought to live, How to live. Your lover must be this type, your food much be this kind, your children should look this way, etc... The majority of the people in this forum are saying that we should live and let live while respecting the rights of others. If someone likes mustard on their burger, let them have it. If someone, likes to dance in the rain, go for it. If someone wants to marry their lover, have a good time.

Religion and trudition bring about as much bad as good in my opinion.

Sidenote: I'm black, and find the quote above extra offensive, what would anyone want with you? Much of the black community wanted a simple appology. It took the US about 150 years to simply say "Sorry we raped, killed and enslaved your ansestors for hunreds of years." To this day the a large protion of black community is suffering from the "worker bee" way of thinking....anyway, that's a diffrent thread...

Message edited by author 2004-02-26 14:23:36.
02/26/2004 02:23:49 PM · #175
Originally posted by GoldBerry:

P.S. I'm wondering if you went home last night telling people about this narrow-minded b*tch that was on DPC yesterday? [being me of course] Because other than thinking "wow, he really hates me" I've really had no other bad thoughts about the entire conversation. Do you think we're arguing? I don't see it that way...I'm asking because I'm actually curious.


No, I went home last night and told my *spouse* how happy I was with my own ability to successfully (in my opinion) debate a sensitive issue in a written public forum. I covered the same things I had discussed with my boss and co-workers previously at the end of the day. I also mentioned that I was very happy about the support I'm getting from other photographers, here and in e-mails.

In fact, you didn't come up specifically at all. You're not the only one here who's ideas I disagree with.
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