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02/25/2004 11:11:57 AM · #51 |
I agree with Spazmo.... if the churches don't want to do it, that's fine.... but the gov has no right to tell us we can't.
I wonder if they will soon outlaw marriage all together?
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02/25/2004 11:18:24 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
and, i'll say again, this whole thing is a complete waste of the country's time. |
that is exactly what it is...and waste of yours and my money. Just think how much time you have just spent here with this and how much money that time is worth. Not that money is the end all, be all, but it is more money I have to give the governmebt so they can waste it again. |
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02/25/2004 01:36:35 PM · #53 |
so why is Dubya getting involved in this issue to begin with? What is there to be gained for this to be written into the constitution? Is state sanctioned gay marriages really the threat to the institution of marriage, as some would have us believe? Would the US fall into moral decay?
I'm sure the answers to these questions have nothing at all to do with his PR people wanting to divert attention away from the administration's scandals and failing policies, or the fact that his public approval ratings have declined in the recent past, or that he is politically vulnerable in a presidential election year. I'm sure it's not anything to do with that he would like a divided electorate fighting amoungst themselves. And I'm sure it has nothing to do with pandering to the religous right, probably his only remaining and loyal constituency.
Please explain to me how gay marriage will cause the decline of heterosexual marriages. |
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02/25/2004 01:39:27 PM · #54 |
for all those hard core bible people here that are so opposed to same sex marriages, that feel god the lord or who ever will damn you to hell for eternity or do some of that fire and brimstone stuff to the gay people who want to get married.... have you ever once thought that the things you do in life can get you the same results you tell people will happen to them if they sin.... oh wait, I forgot you can ask Jesus and god for forgiveness and every thing is now OK and you are once again a good person, even if you kill someone.
This is one thing I have never under stood and one of the main things that keeps me from organized religion and going to church.
Organized religion is full of the biggest bigots and hypocrites I have ever known, well the US federal goverment is worse.
James
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02/25/2004 02:01:38 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by jab119:
for all those hard core bible people here that are so opposed to same sex marriages, that feel god the lord or who ever will damn you to hell for eternity or do some of that fire and brimstone stuff to the gay people who want to get married.... have you ever once thought that the things you do in life can get you the same results you tell people will happen to them if they sin.... oh wait, I forgot you can ask Jesus and god for forgiveness and every thing is now OK and you are once again a good person, even if you kill someone.
This is one thing I have never under stood and one of the main things that keeps me from organized religion and going to church.
Organized religion is full of the biggest bigots and hypocrites I have ever known, well the US federal goverment is worse.
James |
James you're riddled with ill information. Sin is sin, and the way you live your actual life on earth has no bearing on whether or not you get into heaven. There's little worse than angry men and women armed with false information and convinced of it's truth. Don't forget Christ forgave the thieves hanging on the crosses beside him. Salvation comes from the belief in HIS death and resurrection to abolish our sins. I'm a sinner, we all are..no man woman or child who exists today on this planet aren't. The point is that God specifically pointed out homosexuality as an abomination...if you actually want to civilly discuss the matter you can PM me, other than that keep the name calling to a minimum please.
Message edited by author 2004-02-25 14:05:53. |
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02/25/2004 02:16:03 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
other than that keep the name calling to a minimum please. |
I did no name calling, I merely pointed out the truth, if you took that as name calling I do apologize. Im not angry, I am just making a point that there are major flaws in organized religion and I am not riddled with ill information.
James
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02/25/2004 02:16:36 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
You dare me/us? I'll tell you why, although I'm not casting a judgment and if people choose to live a way I don't agree with as a Born Again Christian, it's still their life and affects me in no way..that being said Homosexuality makes our Lord our God gag with anger and disgust, although He loves everyone equally, He made it very clear in scripture that homosexuality wouldn't be tolerated. Marriage originally stems from the Bible hence why so many people do'nt agree with samesex marriages. If courts want to allow civil same-sex marriages than that's fine but you CANNOT as a gov't tell a religion what to do and then try to force their hand. ...blah, go ahead, I DARE THEM! I won't want to be around to see the repercussions. I would die for my faith and would die for my Lord and would NEVER let anyone force me to live the way of this earth instead of the way of our Lord.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!
P.S. I have gay friends and family, knowing the facts and having beliefs doesn't make me a Homophobe.. |
I'm afraid the Christian God's likes and dislikes, although I respect personal faith and the faith of GoldBerry, really do not carry much weight with me. Nor do I feel that Chistianity has a monopoly on morality. I was raised agnostic, *and* to be a moral citizen, by my parents, not a church. The USA is not a Christian nation, there are plenty of people living here today that do not accept the Christian god and associated worldview. Many of our founding fathers were not Christians, but Diests!
That said, and knowing what I do of the Bible, why is Christianity constantly trying to poke it's nose into my business? Why do Christians ingore so many of the other mandates from above (read Leviticus carefully) while insisting that someone like me abide by an arbitrary, socially convenient subset of those rules, when I haven't even bought into the system?
This is why I requested that 'God' not be used as a rationale to prevent me from living my life. Yet the only direct response to my post so far does that and nothing more! What facts, though supposedly known, were presented? Faith does not equal fact!
Maybe I'll burn in the fires of hell for all eterity, since I could very well be wrong (and that's why I call my self agnostic and not atheist, I don't presume to have all the answers), but so far 'God' hasn't had much of an issue with me and has treated me quite well. It's his people that seem to want to make my life difficult.
Call me a selfish minority if it makes you happy, but this issue is not going away. When the sky doesn't fall after 1000's of gay marriages, people are going to look back at this whole issue as unbelieveably silly. I really believe that. Then again, there's still a lot of white/black tension in this country, so maybe I'm being optimistic, but this is a country all about optimism, in my opinion.
- Mousie, who's very existence is a threat to your family, or something
Message edited by author 2004-02-25 14:48:04. |
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02/25/2004 02:36:03 PM · #58 |
the real issue in my opinion is about money. if people didn't get tax breaks for marriage i believe there wouldn't be very much demand for gay marriage.
on a side note. being gay is much different than being a minority racially. if it's not, then we could divide people into all sorts of minority preference groups. there could be those who love the color blue. those that like to live in warm climates. those who like to work night shifts and so on. |
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02/25/2004 02:38:47 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
I'm a sinner, we all are..no man woman or child who exists today on this planet aren't. |
I find it infuriatingly presumptuous of you to tell me that I'm a sinner, based on your rules. I know my own faults, and I don't need to be judged by you. Thanks.
- Mousie, fighting Earth's overpopulation one relationship at a time |
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02/25/2004 02:42:33 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by nborton:
the real issue in my opinion is about money. if people didn't get tax breaks for marriage i believe there wouldn't be very much demand for gay marriage. |
So straight couples get married for tax breaks?!
- Paul, who likes Mousie's quips |
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02/25/2004 02:43:16 PM · #61 |
Let's not forget that nearly every war/mass killing was done in the name of a person's "God." Everything from the Crusades to 9/11 was done with "God's blessing." I think it's time we examine what extreme measures we take in the name of god.
Furthermore, if one wants to take the position that because its wrong in the bible, then they consider all of the things that are said to be wrong in the bible, ie the touching if pigskin.
My overall point is that religious doctrine can be twisted to support any position.
God gave us common sense and respect, let's use it.
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02/25/2004 02:44:37 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by nborton:
on a side note. being gay is much different than being a minority racially. if it's not, then we could divide people into all sorts of minority preference groups. there could be those who love the color blue. those that like to live in warm climates. those who like to work night shifts and so on. |
Why? Because of preference rather than genes? What if tomorrow a scientific report came out proving that being gay was dictated by a person's genes? Would that suddenly make discrimination against them wrong?
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02/25/2004 02:44:49 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
I'm a sinner, we all are..no man woman or child who exists today on this planet aren't. |
I find it infuriatingly presumptuous of you to tell me that I'm a sinner, based on your rules. I know my own faults, and I don't need to be judged by you. Thanks.
- Mousie, fighting Earth's overpopulation one relationship at a time |
Don't misconstrude a judgment with a fact. You're a sinner, that's right I SAID IT! lol but so am I so what does that make us? Why on earth be SOOO upset and appauled by a statement so true and appropriate for us all, that's like saying "everyone has fingernails" and people being outraged! And they're MY rules now? How presumptuous of YOU to put me up on such a pedestal. |
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02/25/2004 02:46:35 PM · #64 |
IMHO, this is a distraction from the other f*ckups made by the bush admin. He's got to split the country along some line. A constitutional amendment of this nature will never pass 2 houses, and 50 states.
I'm still waiting for the weapons of mass destruction.
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02/25/2004 02:46:43 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by Geocide:
Let's not forget that nearly every war/mass killing was done in the name of a person's "God." Everything from the Crusades to 9/11 was done with "God's blessing." I think it's time we examine what extreme measures we take in the name of god.
Furthermore, if one wants to take the position that because its wrong in the bible, then they consider all of the things that are said to be wrong in the bible, ie the touching if pigskin.
My overall point is that religious doctrine can be twisted to support any position.
God gave us common sense and respect, let's use it. |
More misinformation, what was written in the Old testament was not applicable in the New testament, such as the pigskin. And just like today's crusades, historical crusades were unfortunately fought int he Name of Christ for the sole purpose to enhance and procure personal desires. It is and still is wrong, no one is disputing that and most people aren't blind to that fact. |
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02/25/2004 02:48:19 PM · #66 |
I am what I guess you would call Agnostic and My wife is Catholic. My wife believes what she believes and I believe what I believe. We do not allow religion to come into play in our life that we live together as one. I did get married in the Catholic church because I wanted to prove my love for my wife and that if that is what was important to here that is what I would do. I went to the classes, etc. even believing what I believe as an agnostic. We both believe in equal rites. If two people want to be married (or whatever you want to call it) regardless of same sex or not, why should anyone be able to tell them they can't?
I am a sort of hands on type of guy and appreciate science and what can be proven. I do believe that their may be some sort of higher power greater than all of those that walk on this or any other earth but I just don't believe it in the way that organized religion and the Bible portray it. I believe what I believe because evolution can be proven. I am however a good moral person. I don't believe religion makes you a good or a bad person. I believe that good and evil live in the individual person. I'm sure there are many good Agnostics or Atheist but on the other hand I'm also sure there are some evil people that consider the most religious good person on this earth. I like everyone until they give me a reason not to.
However, I believe people should be able to believe whatever they want. This is also a right that everyone has just as everyone should have the right to marry who ever they want. Right?
I HATE to be preached to or to be told that I am going to go to hell for doing something, saying something, etc. I will never try to persuade someone to believe what I believe unless they ask me to do so. So, don't preach to me unless I ask you to. I hate those TV commercials on TV where preachers come on and preach to the whole viewing audience. All I want to do is watch Friends, I don't need that crap to be thrown in the commercials.
Just my 2 cents! Enough about this whole thing.
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02/25/2004 02:53:32 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Don't misconstrude a judgment with a fact. You're a sinner, that's right I SAID IT! lol but so am I so what does that make us? Why on earth be SOOO upset and appauled by a statement so true and appropriate for us all, that's like saying "everyone has fingernails" and people being outraged! And they're MY rules now? How presumptuous of YOU to put me up on such a pedestal. |
Yes yes, tell me I'm a sinner again, it's not working. I don't believe in sin. I haven't bought in. I believe in morality and personal responsibility, there's a big difference.
- Mousie, not the spawn of Eden, even though my middle name is Adam |
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02/25/2004 02:54:35 PM · #68 |
| what if we also found out that being capable in certain aspects like athletics was also in your genes? or the opposite, being smart in school. kids get picked on all the time for being so called nerds. it doesn't stop with being gay. |
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02/25/2004 02:55:53 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Don't misconstrude a judgment with a fact. You're a sinner, that's right I SAID IT! lol but so am I so what does that make us? Why on earth be SOOO upset and appauled by a statement so true and appropriate for us all, that's like saying "everyone has fingernails" and people being outraged! And they're MY rules now? How presumptuous of YOU to put me up on such a pedestal. |
Yes yes, tell me I'm a sinner again, it's not working. I don't believe in sin. I haven't bought in. I believe in morality and personal responsibility, there's a big difference.
- Mousie, not the spawn of Eden, even though my middle name is Adam |
lol that's fine then, if you plain don't believe any of it, that's fine. And what's not working? Do you think I'm typing from a pulpit trying to convert you? That's ridiculous. LOL. An opinion that's FOR religion isnt' always a conversion tactic! Thanks for the chuckle all the same! I'm off for the day, hope everyone has a good one!
Lori |
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02/25/2004 02:55:56 PM · #70 |
Race is a a social construct. There is no genetic distinction between the "races". So to discriminate along those lines is just a silly as discriminate along sexual prefrence.
Even if you comment was true and being gay is simply a prefrence, does that give the right of the GOVT to single them out? Can you then signle out the rights an individual that prefers to practice other religions other than the state sanctioned one?
I really can't beleive that in this day and age, individuals are SUPPORTING DESCRIMINATION along any lines.
Originally posted by nborton:
on a side note. being gay is much different than being a minority racially. if it's not, then we could divide people into all sorts of minority preference groups. there could be those who love the color blue. those that like to live in warm climates. those who like to work night shifts and so on. |
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02/25/2004 03:00:47 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by nborton:
the real issue in my opinion is about money. if people didn't get tax breaks for marriage i believe there wouldn't be very much demand for gay marriage.
on a side note. being gay is much different than being a minority racially. if it's not, then we could divide people into all sorts of minority preference groups. there could be those who love the color blue. those that like to live in warm climates. those who like to work night shifts and so on. |
huh. i'm not sure how different it is at all. a minority group is a minority group--and our society just continues to go thru changes with these groups fighting for acceptance--interestingly mostly in the past century. whether it was women fighing to be treated as equals, african americans fighting to be seen as equals--now this current issue--i dont really see any of them as being that vastly different. people just want to be accepted for who they are and be given the same rights as everyone else. i have been watching this issue develop for as long as i can remember--it was bound to happen sooner or later, more power to it.
i was raised in a church--but personally don't live my life by a strict religion--i choose to live more spiritually--a sort of golden rule if you will--so i believe in treating others the way i would want to be treated. and acceptance of other people's desires and wishes to be treated as equals is pretty high up there. |
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02/25/2004 03:01:46 PM · #72 |
Lots to take in from this thread so I have a lot of topics to cover.
I was born and raised Catholic and at this point in my life choose not to practice a religion. And until any one of the hundreds of different versions out there recognize dinosaurs & cavemen, I probably won't be religious in the future.
Marriage is a sacrament of religion, it is not something to be decided by the politicians. If they choose to give gays a civil union or whatever the term of the day is, so be it. However, unions between man & woman performed outside of a church, such as city halls, are still called marriage.
Since I work in the insurance industry, it really angers me that gay couples are allowed to have "partners benefits". However a man and woman living together are not extended these same benefits. Why? Basically because the gays, even being about a 9% minority, have a huge voice and scream louder thatn the heterosexuals couples that are cohabitating. Is this right? No, but that is just the way it is.
The mayor of SF should be removed from office for blatantly violating his oath if office to uphold the laws of the sate of California. Does no one remember a certain judge in Alabama that was removed from the bench for not following the law to remove the 10 Commandments monument just a few months back?
Just some rambling thoughts.....
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02/25/2004 03:02:03 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
And just like today's crusades, historical crusades were unfortunately fought int he Name of Christ for the sole purpose to enhance and procure personal desires. It is and still is wrong, no one is disputing that and most people aren't blind to that fact. |
9/11 was in the name of someone's "God." Is this right/just? To you, the victum: no. To them, the attackers: Yes.
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02/25/2004 03:04:52 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by nborton:
the real issue in my opinion is about money. if people didn't get tax breaks for marriage i believe there wouldn't be very much demand for gay marriage.
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What freakin' tax break?!?!? Have you ever heard of the Marriage penalty??
The deductions for a married couple are LESS, not more than the deduction for 2 unmarried people.
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02/25/2004 03:07:51 PM · #75 |
Snip>rickhd13
Since I work in the insurance industry, it really angers me that gay couples are allowed to have "partners benefits". That isn't the fault of gay people.
However a man and woman living together are not extended these same benefits. These two issues need to be addressed. Hopefully this conflict will bring about some positive changes.
Tolerance. :) |
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