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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> LucisArts, Photomatix and Virtual Photographer (Deprecated - see first post
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10/15/2007 06:50:42 PM · #1
NOTE TO READERS:
The decisions put forth in this announcement have been deprecated. Please note the new Basic Editing rules thread that clarifies the use of these and other editing tools. This thread is being kept for reference purposes only.

-muckpond

---------------------


Dear community,

Over the last few weeks there has been a lot of discussion and confusion about the legality of certain plug-ins and stand-alone post-processing softwares.

After lengthy debate and research, we announce the following:

LucisArts, Photomatix and Virtual Photographer are NOT PERMITTED to be used under the basic rule set.

We recognize that we have allowed the use of some or all of these in various circumstances in the past. We were trying to find a way to allow the legal use of some of the parts of these plug-ins, and allowed their use to try to understand them better. In the end, we could not find a consistent basis on which to allow the use of these tools, and so must disallow them because they can do a host of "illegal" things, along with some legal ones.

Our apologies for any confusion this has caused and may cause. We hope this change will allow for a clearer understanding of the rules.

Message edited by muckpond - ..
10/15/2007 07:00:19 PM · #2
Interesting. I had already been working under the assumption they weren't allowed in basic. So, these plugins/applications are OK under advanced or expert?
10/15/2007 07:01:01 PM · #3
CS's shadows/highlights adjustment is ok still in Basic?

ETA:or what about 16-32-16 bit tonemapping emulation in this tutorial which currently is listed as ok for Basic Editing. It is CS2's equivalent of tonemapping for PhotoMatix.

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 19:04:03.
10/15/2007 07:06:03 PM · #4
Originally posted by david_c:

Interesting. I had already been working under the assumption they weren't allowed in basic. So, these plugins/applications are OK under advanced or expert?


Your assumption was closest to the most consisent application of the rules. And YES, they are fine for advanced.
10/15/2007 07:07:28 PM · #5
what if we have an entry already in voting that uses one of more of these filters?
10/15/2007 07:08:40 PM · #6
Originally posted by jdannels:

CS's shadows/highlights adjustment is ok still in Basic?


Actually, we're still debating about Shadow/Highlight. it SHOULD be illegal, but isn't right now because its been such an institution in the basic rules for so long. We'll let you know with a LOT of warning and many forgivenesses if we outlaw S/H.
10/15/2007 07:09:05 PM · #7
Originally posted by Simms:

what if we have an entry already in voting that uses one of more of these filters?


Those entries will remain without removal or penalty.
10/15/2007 07:09:37 PM · #8
Originally posted by jdannels:


ETA:or what about 16-32-16 bit tonemapping emulation in this tutorial which currently is listed as ok for Basic Editing. It is CS2's equivalent of tonemapping for PhotoMatix.


We'll get back to you on that one. Don't let us forget.
10/15/2007 07:10:54 PM · #9
Ok, I'm confused now. I always thought in basic you weren't allowed to use highlight/shadows adjustments.
10/15/2007 07:18:14 PM · #10
Originally posted by Marjo:

Ok, I'm confused now. I always thought in basic you weren't allowed to use highlight/shadows adjustments.


It has been traditionally allowed as a "global" adjustment. [remainder of my personal opinion removed]

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 20:19:52.
10/15/2007 07:19:11 PM · #11
Originally posted by frisca:

We'll let you know with a LOT of warning and many forgivenesses if we outlaw S/H.

There will need to be ALOT of forgivenesses, and maybe some cookies. :P I use it on every entry even if I fade it back to almost nothing. I'll have to change my editing work flow alot me thinks. Oh well...
10/15/2007 07:25:04 PM · #12
Good to know, had been wondering about this for a while.
10/15/2007 07:43:55 PM · #13
IMO S/H should remain legal. That is unless SC is planning to also disallow about half the ACR exposure controls, especially brightness, fill light and recovery.
10/15/2007 07:51:46 PM · #14
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

IMO S/H should remain legal. That is unless SC is planning to also disallow about half the ACR exposure controls, especially brightness, fill light and recovery.


for once, I agree with Leroy - The fill light and recovery tool in Lightroom do pretty much the same thing. are they banned as well? If so I will probably be dropping the basic editing challenges. whats the point of banning what are fast becoming basic tools in the photographers toolbox? DPC certainly have a policy of being stuck 5 years behind the current trends in basic editing.

What will theyban next? cropping? since it affects only the edges of the image?

Funny thing is, more and more of the SC do not enter challenges anymore? are they losing touch with the common users?

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 19:53:39.
10/15/2007 07:56:18 PM · #15
basic editing is a teaser. Its not really meant to encourage perfect workflow, but its designed to allow some basic adjustments, with LIMITS. Its the best you can do with boundaries.

And I disagree that fill light and recovery are "basic" tools the same way the "basic rules" use the word "basic". They drastically alter the look of a photo in a way that isn't really the same as what can be done in a traditional darkroom.

Basic editing rules are meant to be the start, not the end. We must place limits or there is no difference between basic rules and advanced, or the trial rules under expert.

I don't enter challenges because I don't have time. I spend too much of it doing admin for the site. Ok, that's only part of it. I don't shoot the way that DPC likes to score. What a personal question to ask why any of us don't enter anymore when many of us do!

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 20:01:16.
10/15/2007 08:03:09 PM · #16
Originally posted by frisca:

basic editing is a teaser. Its not really meant to encourage perfect workflow, but its designed to allow some basic adjustments, with LIMITS. Its the best you can do with boundaries.

And I disagree that fill light and recovery are "basic" tools the same way the "basic rules" use the word "basic". They drastically alter the look of a photo in a way that isn't really the same as what can be done in a traditional darkroom.

Basic editing rules are meant to be the start, not the end. We must place limits or there is no difference between basic rules and advanced, or the trial rules under expert.

I don't enter challenges because I don't have time. I spend too much of it doing admin for the site.


I dont disagree that you are busy with the site, but thats exactly what I mean when I say the SC seem to be losing touch with the common DPCer, most of them came to this site for their love of photography, then one year or so down the line, the photography part has gone and they are 100% admin.

But we are not in a `traditional` darkroom, this is digital photography, its modern, its fresh and the goalposts are moving daily. If we all wish to remain purist, then lets all get back to drawing stick men and woolly mammoths on cave walls. things change, techniques change. To hold it back because it isnt `traditional` is just so much BS. DPC needs to change with the times. A bit of latitude needs to be granted.

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 20:04:51.
10/15/2007 08:04:43 PM · #17
thanks to everyone who's been respectful of this topic so far. Anyone who wishes to discuss Shadow/Highlight in the context of this announcement is invited to do so in a separate thread. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic as well.
10/15/2007 08:06:54 PM · #18
Originally posted by frisca:

thanks to everyone who's been respectful of this topic so far. Anyone who wishes to discuss Shadow/Highlight in the context of this announcement is invited to do so in a separate thread. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic as well.


God forbid I actually put an argument across.
10/15/2007 08:14:06 PM · #19
I'm going to stick my nose in he and probably shouldn't-but shouldn't basic remain a starting point-a place where someone new or without a lot of money for all the latest and greatest stuff can start and compete on an equal footing?
10/15/2007 08:14:46 PM · #20
Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by frisca:

thanks to everyone who's been respectful of this topic so far. Anyone who wishes to discuss Shadow/Highlight in the context of this announcement is invited to do so in a separate thread. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic as well.


God forbid I actually put an argument across.


Simms, you have some good points; perhaps you'd like to start a new thread discussing Shadow/Highlight in Basic Editing. This one is for Virtual Photographer, Photomatix, and LucisArts only. Thanks.
10/15/2007 08:15:18 PM · #21
Originally posted by frisca:

Anyone who wishes to discuss Shadow/Highlight in the context of this announcement is invited to do so in a separate thread. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic as well.


//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=690199
10/15/2007 08:16:08 PM · #22
Originally posted by Simms:



I dont disagree that you are busy with the site, but thats exactly what I mean when I say the SC seem to be losing touch with the common DPCer, most of them came to this site for their love of photography, then one year or so down the line, the photography part has gone and they are 100% admin.



Mark, frankly, You need to do some homework.

You have entered 35 challenges, 10 since June 1st, 2007. I don't know if you are considering yourself "in touch" with the site, though it certainly sounds like it. Using your numbers as a baseline, let's look at some others.

The site council break down is as follows:

karmat --Entered 323 challenges, 22 since June 1st
GeneralE -- entered 287, 40 since June
mk -- 153, 5 since June
justine -- 182, 5 since June
manic -- 72, 2
Clubjuggle -- 95, 0
sher -- 217, 8
muckpond -- 94, 2
kirbic -- 61, 3
konador -- 250, 7
alanfreed -- 261, 13 (and has voted on ALL of them, minus one challenge, I think)
ursula -- 204, 14
dsidwell -- 172, 0
frisca -- 24, 2
nshapiro -- 129, 17
scalvert -- 173, 10 (5 of the cussed things ribboned)
L2 -- 42, 6

So, it looks like to me, we made this decision based very much in touch with the site. You may or may not agree with it, but yes, we are active in areas other than administration.

We make the decisions that we do based on a lot of discussion. An idea is brought up, then we spend literally 100s of hours looking at it from every conceivable viewpoint to make the best decision for the spirit and direction of the site.

AND we participate in the user end of the site by entering and voting.
10/15/2007 08:16:56 PM · #23
Originally posted by rider:

I'm going to stick my nose in he and probably shouldn't-but shouldn't basic remain a starting point-a place where someone new or without a lot of money for all the latest and greatest stuff can start and compete on an equal footing?


Oh yes, I agree totally with that. tell you what, I will use the shadow/highlight tool that came free with my copy of PS Elements. If you have a digi camera, chances are you have PS Elements.

job done.
10/15/2007 08:23:54 PM · #24
Originally posted by frisca:

Anyone who wishes to discuss Shadow/Highlight in the context of this announcement is invited to do so in a separate thread. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic as well.


AHEM! It was a very simple request. Let's keep this thread on topic please. :-/

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 20:24:34.
10/15/2007 08:27:30 PM · #25
Those stats are only 50% impressive.

Taken completely out of context mind so not really worth anything. One could say, Frisca has entered 3 challenges since June, another way of putting it would be to say she has entered 4 challenges in the last 4 years. Not having time to go through it as throughly as you, but taking into account the last 36 months, the stats look very different (except for the nshapiros and scalverts, who are quite frankly, challenge entering (and winning) machines.)

Anyway, thats by the by.

Back to the original topic.. is fill tool/recoery tool in lightroom legal or not?

Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by Simms:



I dont disagree that you are busy with the site, but thats exactly what I mean when I say the SC seem to be losing touch with the common DPCer, most of them came to this site for their love of photography, then one year or so down the line, the photography part has gone and they are 100% admin.



Mark, frankly, You need to do some homework.

You have entered 35 challenges, 10 since June 1st, 2007. I don't know if you are considering yourself "in touch" with the site, though it certainly sounds like it. Using your numbers as a baseline, let's look at some others.

The site council break down is as follows:

karmat --Entered 323 challenges, 22 since June 1st
GeneralE -- entered 287, 40 since June
mk -- 153, 5 since June
justine -- 182, 5 since June
manic -- 72, 2
Clubjuggle -- 95, 0
sher -- 217, 8
muckpond -- 94, 2
kirbic -- 61, 3
konador -- 250, 7
alanfreed -- 261, 13 (and has voted on ALL of them, minus one challenge, I think)
ursula -- 204, 14
dsidwell -- 172, 0
frisca -- 24, 2
nshapiro -- 129, 17
scalvert -- 173, 10 (5 of the cussed things ribboned)
L2 -- 42, 6

So, it looks like to me, we made this decision based very much in touch with the site. You may or may not agree with it, but yes, we are active in areas other than administration.

We make the decisions that we do based on a lot of discussion. An idea is brought up, then we spend literally 100s of hours looking at it from every conceivable viewpoint to make the best decision for the spirit and direction of the site.

AND we participate in the user end of the site by entering and voting.
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