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 10/07/2007 03:38:33 PM · #51
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Did I mention you by name in my reply? No. Did I refer to you specifically? No. I only referred to some doctors. I've had enough experience dealing with doctors to know that the problem and attitude is not uncommon with doctors. As for the nature of the comment, it's only personal if the description applies to you.


Well, at best you are guilty of unclear motives. If you quote a doctor from a post 10 posts up and say that some docs are full of themselves, what's the reasonable response?

I'm quite sure you were aware of the implication as you did not go out of your way to smooth things over in your response when called on it. Instead you continue to go on the offensive. I don't buy your "I didn't do anything" excuse at all.

Maybe if some people from Michigan would think about what they say before they say it...


I was aware that you might see signs of the "God complex" in yourself and take offense. You're right that I didn't go out of the way to explicitly exclude you in my reply, I also didn't explicitly include you either. I deliberately left it ambiguous.

How that applies or doesn't apply in your case, only you can know. If the shoe fits, wear it. On the other hand if it doesn't, it must not be your shoe, so don't worry about it.

10/07/2007 05:09:55 PM · #52
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I was aware that you might see signs of the "God complex" in yourself and take offense. You're right that I didn't go out of the way to explicitly exclude you in my reply, I also didn't explicitly include you either. I deliberately left it ambiguous.

How that applies or doesn't apply in your case, only you can know. If the shoe fits, wear it. On the other hand if it doesn't, it must not be your shoe, so don't worry about it.

Originally posted by Forum Rules:

12. Do not bait or provoke other users. This does not promote civil discussion and will not be tolerated.

Please limit the discussion to the issue raised by the OP.
 10/07/2007 05:25:27 PM · #53
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I was aware that you might see signs of the "God complex" in yourself and take offense. You're right that I didn't go out of the way to explicitly exclude you in my reply, I also didn't explicitly include you either. I deliberately left it ambiguous.

How that applies or doesn't apply in your case, only you can know. If the shoe fits, wear it. On the other hand if it doesn't, it must not be your shoe, so don't worry about it.

Originally posted by Forum Rules:

12. Do not bait or provoke other users. This does not promote civil discussion and will not be tolerated.

Please limit the discussion to the issue raised by the OP.


My post neither baited nor provoked. It was a comment on the general arrogant attitude of some doctors. While not specifically relevant to the original post, it was in line with other posts made before it and the direction of the discussion.
 10/07/2007 06:38:34 PM · #54
The original post refrenced an article that was written by a talentless liar who's cheif goal in journalism is to incite outrage and arguments. Mr Graham is so talented that he has now gotten us arguing over a story that he has invented, and insulting each other, nice work.
 10/07/2007 06:56:51 PM · #55
Can't we all just get along...

...knife and stab each other in the back.

:)

10/07/2007 07:08:47 PM · #56
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The original post refrenced an article that was written by a talentless liar who's cheif goal in journalism is to incite outrage and arguments. Mr Graham is so talented that he has now gotten us arguing over a story that he has invented, and insulting each other, nice work.


Can you say Pulitzer Prize:P
 10/07/2007 08:54:26 PM · #57
Originally posted by fencekicker:
I'm sure that not every call that they receive is a true case of abuse. However, it is a good thing to have a reporting/investigation system in place to protect children. They can't take a child from a home without strong evidence, and even when there is evidence, there is an effort (in some areas anyway and depending on the issues) to try to remedy the problems that contribute to the abuse to keep the family together.

I think you'd be stunned to know how easy it is to rain the nightmare of Children's Services down on someone and how much latitude they have to abuse their power and get away with it.

Yeah, you'll get your day in court, but I think you'd be surprised how easy it is to get a child yanked from their home if you can convince a child welfare worker that the child is in danger. And sometimes, the drug card is the easiest to pull, and the most difficult to defend yourself against.

The Innocent-until-proven-guilty thing *guaranteed* in the US Constitution is flagrantly and regularly ignored in child protection cases.

The upside is that sometimes a child is taken from a very harmful environment; the downside is that a family's worst nightmare is wrongfully brought down on them.

It's a really tough world out there these days and those of us who are parents do the best that we can, but sometimes life can take a wrong turn.....realize that doctors and child welfare workers are people too, and they do the best that they can.

Bear in mind that under no circumstances does any doctor or child welfare worker get paid enough to do something to wreck a home, and neither do they get any gratification out of doing so.

But sometimes, that's the only way to save a child's life.

ETA: Just put yourself in these shoes......your brother, whom you love dearly, is on another bender the weekend that he has visitation with your niece......he's just left the house after another heated discussion with you about when he's had enough and you heard the tires howling as he went around that corner too fast again. You know he's had way too much to drink......again.....and he's really mad to boot. Do you call the cops, or hope that your niece makes it home in one piece?

Can you live with yourself if you don't and they don't make it home?

Now who's the bad guy?

I hope none of you ever have to live through anything that touches your family in any way like this. It's too horrible for words......the best scenario is that nobody dies, but invariably the losers are *always* the children, even if after a time, they get to go home because the parents have straightened out their lives.

Who gives the kids back their childhood?

Can my doctor ask my kid anything? He's her godfather and I trust him with her life.

You bet he can!

Message edited by author 2007-10-07 21:19:37.
 10/09/2007 08:50:15 PM · #58
NikonJeb,

You've written a thoughtful post, and I suspect that you are relating a personal experience.

I think that each county probably has slightly different standards for action even if the policies are the same. Its their interpretation of the policies that differ. In a county where the majority of the youth would qualify as "at risk" perhaps the actions taken demand greater amounts of evidence than areas that have few "at risk" children. Afterall, a poor county barely has the funds to meet the needs of the children they absolutely know are in dangerous situations. Although this might work the otherway at times... a worker in a high risk area might think all at risk kids are abused.

Anyway, from what I understand, if an allegation is made, a child is moved into a safe place or access restricted until an investigation occurs. The investigation must happen asap (due process). Meanwhile a child will undergo psychiatric evaluations and questioning. Parents and possible abusers (not always parents) undergo questioning. This should happen pretty quickly as not only is the whole thing traumatic for children/parents/relatives, but states/counties just can't afford to keep children in custody.

The trouble in some areas (especially in small towns where confidential information can be public gossip) is that even if the name of the accused is cleared, damage might have been done to the accused's reputation. Edit to add: The small town issue could also interfere with the safety of a child if the town thinks that a perpetrator "would never do such a thing" and stands in steadfast defense of the perpetrator even with undeniable proof. This can hurt the child even more.

In my experience working with youth, it appears to me that even in situations where an accusation is founded enough to enter a child into long term foster care, great effort is made to work with the family to prevent abuse and return the child to the family. Obviously this isn't true for every case. Its probably not true for every region. Like you, I can only relate from what I've encountered in my own experience. I just don't think that the majority of social workers are out to abuse their powers, nor can they afford to.

I agree, a false accusation can be a nightmare for parents. Its why articles like the one in the original post insight so much uproar. Its scary because we think it really could happen. What parent hasn't ever made a single mistake? How many people agree 100% on the best ways to raise children? Where are the lines for what is reasonable and what is too much or not enough? Some abuse is obvious. There are bruises and wounds and physical scars that are indisputable. Other forms of abuse are less clear. Its this vague grey area that stories about the state taking a child from home feed on. And, when someone asks children questions, who knows what they will say? Some children (certainly not all) will say anything if they think it will get them something that they want,or to please someone that they like.

However, the people who investigate these matters know that not every accused person is guilty. They are responsible to investigate it, yes. But, to permenantly take a child from his/her home requires more than just an accusation. Most social workers are not out to abuse their powers, nor can they afford to.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Bear in mind that under no circumstances does any doctor or child welfare worker get paid enough to do something to wreck a home, and neither do they get any gratification out of doing so.


I think that this is the key to this discussion. The child welfare workers are not out to wreck our homes. And, from what I've seen in my state/county, they would rather keep families together where possible.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Who gives the kids back their childhood?


Unfortunately, in today's world, kids don't have much of a childhood, regardless of the actions of the state/county.

Regarding my hypothetical drunken and alcoholic brother who has my daughter... I wouldn't let my brother take her anywhere until he cleaned up his act. If he wanted to visit while we are present, thats one thing, but to take her somewhere is something else. We'd have established limitations on what he could and couldn't do with any of my children. Would I entirely forbid visits? Probably not, unless he refused to abide by our guidelines which we set in place to protect our children. The idea would also be to help him to sober up and to retain the family ties. But if alcohol is more important than family, that would be his choice and he would not be allowed access to our daughter until she is old enough to make her own choices in such matters. Hopefully, we'll have taught her well enough that she will make wise choices.

Thanks for your comments. :)
Also, I tend to like a lot of your photos. Nice work. :)

Message edited by author 2007-10-09 21:03:32.
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