Bummer... two DNMC in the top three...

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basssman7

Nikon D500

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

09/23/2007 10:16:04 PM · #226

Originally posted by GeneralE:

So you want to express your opinion, and even DQ a photo without having to defend, support or take responsibility for your position?

I did not make the suggestion, I just clarified it for you. Hopefully Yanko will respond to your question. :)

zxaar

09/23/2007 10:17:19 PM · #227

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by basssman7:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by yanko:
A) Anonymity - The voter would now be able to say a photo is DNMC without fear of getting a nasty PM back or ridicule by others after the challenge is over.

We've already given you the opportunity to make your DNMC comment anonymously, if you're unwilling to have your views on the matter challenged.

I think you are missing the part where he said "after the challenge is over". Being a baghead is only for the voting period of the challenge.

So you want to express your opinion, and even DQ a photo without having to defend, support or take responsibility for your position?

then how about making votes also transparent?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/23/2007 10:17:37 PM · #228

Originally posted by basssman7:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
So you want to express your opinion, and even DQ a photo without having to defend, support or take responsibility for your position?

I did not make the suggestion, I just clarified it for you. Hopefully Yanko will respond to your question. :)

OK -- I had gotten the impression that you were sympatico with that point of view.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/23/2007 10:18:33 PM · #229

Originally posted by zxaar:

then how about making votes also transparent?

You can't DQ a photo with votes, only rate it.

basssman7

Nikon D500

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

09/23/2007 10:25:12 PM · #230

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by basssman7:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
So you want to express your opinion, and even DQ a photo without having to defend, support or take responsibility for your position?

I did not make the suggestion, I just clarified it for you. Hopefully Yanko will respond to your question. :)

OK -- I had gotten the impression that you were sympatico with that point of view.

No, quite to the contrary. I would be really pissed if someone tried to dq my image and I could not find out who it was or explain to them why it does meet the challenge, even if it is after the fact.

I think it would also help to keep folks from getting too carried away when they know their name will be on display.

But then again, as you know I am not shy either. LOL

zxaar

09/23/2007 10:29:05 PM · #231

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by zxaar:
then how about making votes also transparent?

You can't DQ a photo with votes, only rate it.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

So you want to express your opinion, and even DQ a photo without having to defend, support or take responsibility for your position?

I used to think our votes are our opinion.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/23/2007 10:35:50 PM · #232

Originally posted by zxaar:

I used to think our votes are our opinion.

I agree -- so why do you need that d*** checkbox?

zxaar

09/23/2007 10:37:22 PM · #233

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by zxaar:
I used to think our votes are our opinion.

I agree -- so why do you need that d*** checkbox?

To express additional opinion, because scoring low does not always mean its a dnmc, but specifically telling it is dnmc will make it very clear.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/23/2007 10:39:40 PM · #234

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Current status:
People vote and do not comment.
People vote 3 or below and do not leave a comment.
People vote 1, 2, or 3 and leave comment DNMC.
People vote 6, 7, or 8 and say DNMC but it's a gorgeous photo.

Future status:
People vote and do not comment.
People vote 3 or below and do not leave a comment.
People vote 1, 2, or 3 and leave comment DNMC.
People vote 6, 7, or 8 and say DNMC but it's a gorgeous photo.
People vote and check the DNMC checkbox because they think it's DNMC.
People vote and check the DNMC checkbox because the photo is great and they just want to play head games.
People vote and think the image is DNMC yet don't select the checkbox because it's one more thing to do.
People vote and think the image is DNMC yet don't select the checkbox because they don't want to.
People vote and select the DNMC checkbox just because they can.
People don't vote and select the DNMC checkbox just for fun.

Statistics are only as good as the data input. Garbage in, garbage out.

edit typo.

Your last sentence is irrelevant. The idea was never offered as a solution to fix irresponsible voting/commenting. That'll happen regardless of what system is in place. The point of adding the checkbox is:

A) Anonymity - The voter would now be able to say a photo is DNMC without fear of getting a nasty PM back or ridicule by others after the challenge is over.

B.) More information to the photog - Without the fear of retribution the voters will be more likely to tell the photog what they thought in regards to challenge theme relevancy. This can't be anything but a good thing for a learning photog. If brute honesty is too much of a problem for the photog then make it an option where they can turn off the checkbox on their photos?

Nah. My point was there can/will be numerous reasons for selecting a 'DNMC' checkbox. Some people are thinking this checkbox will provide some valid feedback to the photographer that submits the photo. I really don't think there's any relevance because of the variety of reasons (listed in earlier post quoted above) this "checkbox" can be selected.

basssman7

Nikon D500

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

09/23/2007 10:41:51 PM · #235

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by zxaar:
I used to think our votes are our opinion.

I agree -- so why do you need that d*** checkbox?

To express additional opinion, because scoring low does not always mean its a dnmc, but specifically telling it is dnmc will make it very clear.

so scoring low, and leaving a comment that gives your opinion of the photo, then saying why it does not meet the challenge in your opinion...is not good enough?

How is that different then having the checkbox? Except that it would force you to think, instead of just clicking a little box like it was an afterthought.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/23/2007 10:43:35 PM · #236

Originally posted by neophyte:

Why don't we start a thread when each challenge is announced where everyone can explain their narrow minded version of what meets the theme, what doesn't, and politely ask the voters and commenters to vote and comment using our criteria instead of theirs :P

That already takes place now. They're called score threads, but usually end up with some major politicing for various viewpoints on challenge theme (some subtle, some not so much). :)

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

09/23/2007 10:45:59 PM · #237

Originally posted by zxaar:

Not to keep going around and around here but isn't the comment box for exactly that, to express additional opinion on the image other than the numerical vote? Everything requested in the post is available to you as it is at this very moment, vote and voice, use them if you want.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/23/2007 10:47:07 PM · #238

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by zxaar:
I used to think our votes are our opinion.

I agree -- so why do you need that d*** checkbox?

Yeehaw! Big grin here!!! :D

Exactly.

zxaar

09/23/2007 10:47:58 PM · #239

Originally posted by basssman7:

so scoring low, and leaving a comment that gives your opinion of the photo, .....

actually the dnmc check box is needed because of comment part. If you score it low and then comment, it very likely you will get a pm protesting it. In the long run people would just stop commenting (in fact already have).
Providing check box would keep the whole thing peaceful. Anonymity is important (at least I feel), there are many other people who do not think so.
I feel it is not so hard to implement, and could be at least done for few weeks and see how things are. Providing dmnc check box does not cause any harm. And it just shows an opinion of voters. Why is so much resistance to it, I can not understand.

Message edited by author 2007-09-23 22:48:45.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/23/2007 10:49:46 PM · #240

Originally posted by trevytrev:

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by zxaar:
I used to think our votes are our opinion.

I agree -- so why do you need that d*** checkbox?

To express additional opinion, because scoring low does not always mean its a dnmc, but specifically telling it is dnmc will make it very clear.

Not to keep going around and around here but isn't the comment box for exactly that, to express additional opinion on the image other than the numerical vote? Everything requested in the post is available to you as it is at this very moment, vote and voice, use them if you want.

Because they want to have this checkbox to hide behind. People are afraid to make their real opinion known in a comment. Oh NO! They might get a PM from someone that is upset!

If a person receiving a DNMC comment gets that worked up about it that they have to send a nasty PM, then maybe challenges at DPC aren't the best avenue for them to display their work?

zxaar

09/23/2007 10:54:19 PM · #241

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Because they want to have this checkbox to hide behind. People are afraid to make their real opinion known in a comment. Oh NO! They might get a PM from someone that is upset!

nobody wants to hide behind anything, I have many times said I give lots of 1s and 2s. Its just that some feel that blunt commenting only make people at loggerheads with each other. Not good thing for this site.

Les_Feck

Sony SLT-A58

Sony DT 18�55mm f/3.5�5.6 SAM AF

09/23/2007 10:57:42 PM · #242

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Now we're talking. Lets get rid of the whole anonymity thing. Everyone should have to justify their votes regardless. If you don't have the guts to vote a someone a 1 and justify it, then just don't vote at all. Damnit.

I hope I spelled all the words correctly this time.

trevytrev

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

09/23/2007 11:02:02 PM · #243

Originally posted by zxaar:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Because they want to have this checkbox to hide behind. People are afraid to make their real opinion known in a comment. Oh NO! They might get a PM from someone that is upset!

nobody wants to hide behind anything, I have many times said I give lots of 1s and 2s. Its just that some feel that blunt commenting only make people at loggerheads with each other. Not good thing for this site.

Except that you will then get a faction of people who start threads complaining about getting DNMC checks and no comments. Your just creating another group of disgruntled people on the site, imo.

glad2badad

DJI Mavic Air 2

Sears 55mm f/1.4 M42

09/23/2007 11:02:15 PM · #244

Originally posted by zxaar:

Doesn't have to be blunt to tell someone that you don't think their image meets the challenge theme. Even if an image is DNMC there can be something positive about it to express usually.

I also wonder, what's the reaction for people that get so upset about a DNMC type comment that they have to react with a negative PM going to be when they don't have someone to "lash" out at? I see a rise in threads with DNMC as the common denominator with questions/rants about getting "checked". This is the opposite of some logic I've read where proponents of the "checkbox" think this will "address this issue once and for all".

Again, to reiterate, if people get that upset about receiving DNMC comments they really should reconsider why they're putting their images out into a public forum for voting/feedback.

edit - LOL, Trev got it out there faster than I, and with a lot less verbiage. :)

Message edited by author 2007-09-23 23:03:52.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

09/23/2007 11:03:47 PM · #245

Originally posted by basssman7:

I would be really pissed if someone tried to dq my image and I could not find out who it was or explain to them why it does meet the challenge, even if it is after the fact.

The fact is that currently anyone could request a validation of your image and if it was DQ'd you would never know who submitted the request. Surely you aren't suggesting that this approach would apply solely for instances where DNMC was the issue.

Originally posted by basssman7:

I think it would also help to keep folks from getting too carried away when they know their name will be on display.

Indeed it would... and that effectively would have a severe impact on the issuing of DNMC in that box you refer to, with the ensuing results being that the process would be skewed to the point that the results would be meaningless.

I truly haven't heard much so far that would entice me to support this proposal.

Ray

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

09/23/2007 11:05:30 PM · #246

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I'm not sure I follow you. The way it is now people can just vote down for DNMC and not tell you and avoid the responsibility I think you're saying. I can see why people would do that because they don't want to get flamed for having an opinion. What a checkbox would do is eliminate the fear of getting attacked just for having an opinion and the photog gets to know if their photo was DNMC or not. Seems like a win win situation to me. Is this not a learning site? Wouldn't this extra stat displayed at the end not be at all helpful for the photographer? Would this not help reduce the nasty PMs in regards to DNMC?

PapaBob

09/23/2007 11:15:23 PM · #247

This whole thread started because someone felt an image did not meet thier opion on what the challenge was, apparently enough voters disagreed and they got a ribbon. What would the DNMC button do in this case? If a few people hit the button, what would that change?

If you try to put photographers who are artistic in a box some will just escape....

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

09/23/2007 11:21:08 PM · #248

Originally posted by trevytrev:

Yes, but there are two problems with this which have ALREADY BEEN EXPRESSED.

people do not always feel inclined to post DNMC because of a strong possibility for major emotional backwash in the form of flames.

Why should this happen when DNMC is just an opinion of how an image is used rather than anything about the image itself?

The current system, requiring a comment for DNMC encourages people to be fearful of negative backwash when placing such a comment.

Anonymity encourages honesty. This is supported with the voting system as evidence. However, people will still be uncomfortable with placing a low vote on a beautiful image.

That's why I made my suggestion which I believe has a response to every issue brought up on the subject. Please feel free to read all the posts or just jump to the 43rd post (for default settings on the 2nd page) for an updated solution which resulted from listening to other people's suggestions.

Originally posted by rayethier:

The proposals made to date do NOT even begin to address the issues at hand. This is NOT a fix... it is at best a placebo.

In order to truly correct a perceived problem, we as a collective have to identify exactly what it is that we find offensive, and to date that has not been done, nor is it apt to be determined any time soon.

I disagree. I discussed most of the issues at hand at length and took in multiple perspectives. Follow the above link. In fact, there are even a handful of issues that haven't been brought up in this thread which are addressed in that thread.

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Current status:
People vote and do not comment.
People vote 3 or below and do not leave a comment.
People vote 1, 2, or 3 and leave comment DNMC.
People vote 6, 7, or 8 and say DNMC but it's a gorgeous photo.

Future status:

Statistics are only as good as the data input. Garbage in, garbage out.

surely you must see the paradox in your own statement. The last statement indicates that there will be no change by adding a DNMC box because the opinions of the voting public are not going to change. This can't be true because adding a box would allow more detailed information.

Of course the reality is that people are resistant to change. It is highly likely that many people won't change their voting pattern much. It is also highly likely that the system will find those searching to abuse it. However, that isn't really different from the current state of things. If a system were added that required no real additional effort (clicking a box vs commenting "DNMC" vs simply voting low is really not a major difference) that encouraged honesty with increased detail, people would likely get more honest and provide more detail than they are now. Those that behave dishonestly would probably be the same few people and would do the same stuff they do now. But that isn't the point. This idea is for working with those who DO put thought into their votes - which for discussion's sake, let's assume is the broad majority of voters - for to assume otherwise is to render the whole challenge process rather futile...

If you have the DNMC tally publicly viewable, this will encourage abuse (although somewhat mildly IMHO) because people know that they could influence such a stat for causing shame... much like excellent MC pictures still manage to garner 1's 2's and 3's. Much easier and simpler would be to provide the option on each image to reveal the DNMC tally after the challenge.

Keep the DNMC information private, and give the photographer the option to choose, rather than a DQ, a DNMC deferral to remove the image from the 'placement runnings' for the themed challenge, but keep the point value score.

How would this affect those who chose to be creative and submitted something hard to understand? Well, currently most of those images score somewhere near the middle. Does it really matter to those people if they score a 5.7 or a 5.4? probably not. Probably less so if they received a large number of DNMC marks. This would merely show them something which would make that middling score a bit easier to swallow.

Of course in the other thread, this issue is also addressed further to take in a suggestion by GenE, but I'll let you read about it where I wrote it.

PapaBob

09/23/2007 11:33:53 PM · #249

At best it's a useless statistic, in the challenge that is questioned what would the DNMC button change? How many DNMC's does it take? How do you come up with what should be considered the right number before it affects a challenge? Would it just be the stat that shows with the image or photog, if so why do we need it?

I really think it makes no difference and has the potential to upset more people than it helps. IMHO

PapaBob

09/23/2007 11:35:19 PM · #250

How do I get a dead horse icon?

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