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09/13/2007 01:27:59 PM · #1
The image originally in 3rd place was disqualified because of using blending modes other than normal. Please remember that in Basic editing you can use only "normal" as blending mode in either adjustment layers or fades.

Congratulations to the new third place!
09/14/2007 01:38:23 PM · #2
I'm not protesting -- I'm really not. I'm just struck by the big difference in what is allowed in basic editing vs. what is allowed in advanced editing.

It's startling to me that this Bokeh Challenge image was disqualified after seeing such heavy post-processing in the Impressionism Challenge.

09/14/2007 02:47:31 PM · #3
This is the second DQ recently for using image layers in modes other than "normal."

Clearly, "You may use only adjustment layers" isn't telling people "you may not use image layers in blending modes other than normal."

I think a simple change in the "you may not" section of the rules could address this:

- use image layers in any blending mode other than "normal"
09/14/2007 03:09:42 PM · #4
You mean like this:

Originally posted by basic rules:



You may . . ..
Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode.


Found here

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 15:10:38.
09/14/2007 03:09:47 PM · #5
Originally posted by citymars:

I'm not protesting -- I'm really not. I'm just struck by the big difference in what is allowed in basic editing vs. what is allowed in advanced editing.

It's startling to me that this Bokeh Challenge image was disqualified after seeing such heavy post-processing in the Impressionism Challenge.


Thats the difference from basic and advanced, why so startled?
09/14/2007 03:12:28 PM · #6
Originally posted by karmat:

You mean like this:

Originally posted by basic rules:


Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode.


Found here


No, I don't. That says what you may do with adjustment layers. That wasn't the problem on this entry, nor was it the problem, as far as I know, on this:


Rather the problem was that the photographers didn't understand what you may not do with image layers.

I don't think the rules are clear enough. Adding one line to the "you may not" section will both distinguish between adjustment and image layers while telling you what's allowed and not:

You may not
- use image layers in any blending mode other than "normal"

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 15:14:18.
09/14/2007 03:34:35 PM · #7
Originally posted by levyj413:



Rather the problem was that the photographers didn't understand what you may not do with image layers.

I don't think the rules are clear enough. Adding one line to the "you may not" section will both distinguish between adjustment and image layers while telling you what's allowed and not:

You may not
- use image layers in any blending mode other than "normal"


Well you aren't supposed to be using image layers.

You May: use only Adjustment Layers (or their equivalent). An Adjustment Layer is a special type of layer containing no image data.

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 15:34:50.
09/14/2007 03:38:57 PM · #8
I'm not sure he used any layers. I think he went to edit and faded the effect. In doing so, you have different blending options. In my view, this violates the spirit of basic editing, but not sure that it is explicitly stated that you can't do this.
09/14/2007 03:50:06 PM · #9
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Well you aren't supposed to be using image layers.


Well, you have to use at least one image layer or there's no image. And many people, including me, keep the original as a base layer and make copies to do sharpening and other changes. But ultimately, only one layer is allowed to be visible in the final image. Actually, that reminds me it also needs to address opacity:

You may not
- use image layers in any blending mode other than "normal" or at any opacity other than 100%.

Ultimately, what I'm arguing for is to keep what's essentially a negative statement (don't do this) in the negative section (you may not) instead of hiding it in the positive, "you may" section.

Originally posted by cloudsme:

I'm not sure he used any layers.

Yeah, he did. Look at the first post in this thread:
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=674877

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 15:53:03.
09/14/2007 03:52:41 PM · #10
Originally posted by levyj413:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Well you aren't supposed to be using image layers.




Haven' they? "You may only use Adjustment layers ... layers that contain no image data".

Seriously, I think a good portion of the rules are senselessly vague and unevenly applied but in this case I really think they left little margin for misinterpretation.

edit: The additions to your post - I interpreted you may only user adjustment layers containing no image data as just that. If your practice is well known and widely used, then this is another example of a poorly phrased rule or one which is not being enforced I guess. Whatever, so far no dq's so I'm just going to keep going with what is working.

Message edited by author 2007-09-14 15:54:54.
09/14/2007 04:01:26 PM · #11
Just to clarify, the image wasn't disqualified because of layers, but because of the blending modes ("darken" and "lighten") used in fade.
09/14/2007 04:18:38 PM · #12
hmmmm

The rule states: "Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode."

Are we considering the use of the fade command an adjustment layer? I don't actually see any reference to normal mode other than that.

I personally wouldn't have considered the use of fade as an adjustment layer. It fades the effect of the filter used on the pixel layer.

I understand that the intent of the basic rules is to not allow anything to be done in other than normal mode, but it doesn't appear to me that the rules acutally state it, other than for "Adjustment layers".

p.s. - please don't hit me. I bruise easily.
09/14/2007 04:25:01 PM · #13
Originally posted by levyj413:

This is the second DQ recently for using image layers in modes other than "normal."

Clearly, "You may use only adjustment layers" isn't telling people "you may not use image layers in blending modes other than normal."

I think a simple change in the "you may not" section of the rules could address this:

- use image layers in any blending mode other than "normal"


I just want to point out that I was replying directly to levy on my post about what the rules were saying. He was talking about layers, so I posted from that section. :)
09/14/2007 04:32:15 PM · #14
Originally posted by shanksware:

hmmmm

The rule states: "Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode."

Are we considering the use of the fade command an adjustment layer? I don't actually see any reference to normal mode other than that.

I personally wouldn't have considered the use of fade as an adjustment layer. It fades the effect of the filter used on the pixel layer.

I understand that the intent of the basic rules is to not allow anything to be done in other than normal mode, but it doesn't appear to me that the rules acutally state it, other than for "Adjustment layers".

p.s. - please don't hit me. I bruise easily.


I think we are saying fade is an adjustment layer. I have used fade often, but haven't done anything but normal blend. The rules don't specifically address this, but the spirit of the rules say you can only use normal blending in basic. There should be a general statement about blending such as, only normal blending can be used when applicable, or something like that.
09/14/2007 04:40:42 PM · #15
Originally posted by cloudsme:

There should be a general statement about blending such as, only normal blending can be used when applicable, or something like that.


YES!

Let me say that I didn't realize it was a fade blending mode that was the problem, vs. an image layer used in a blending mode other than "normal." But the fact it was makes a rules clarification even more imperative.

Here's how I read the rules:

"I want to fade my sharpening. Nope, I don't see anything about any restrictions on how I sharpen. I do see where it says I can't use anything but "normal" blending mode for an adjustment layer, but this isn't an adjustment layer."

As for adjustment vs. image, it's clear if you already know what it means. But if, for example, you're not using Photoshop, you may take one look at the "you may" section's discussion of adjustment layers and skip on, feeling safe in the knowledge you don't use them at all, so why would that whole section be relevant to you?

Whereas a clear "don't" statement would clearly apply.
09/15/2007 02:13:00 AM · #16
As per as using noise reduction & sharpening the image I was yet assuming that I can use noise brush & use Luko sharp method though it uses blending mode. I don't think it can really make big difference in the image except giving me a personal level satisfaction but at last I understood now that it was my mistake.
I appreciate brad honestly admitting about using this method in basic editing.
I must mention that it's very hard to digest disqualification on ribbion winner image because I am not either scalvert or Larus to win the ribbon on & on especially using my DSC-H2.

Message edited by author 2007-09-15 02:43:38.
09/17/2007 09:38:39 PM · #17
I had always thought that the Basic rules did not allow any pixel based layers, but they don't seem to say that. They say adjustment layers are allowed, in normal mode only. The Basic rule set does not say anything at all about pixel layers.

use only Adjustment Layers (or their equivalent). An Adjustment Layer is a special type of layer containing no image data that lets you experiment with color and tonal adjustments without permanently modifying the pixels. Adjustment Layers must be applied in Normal mode.

What about normal layers? Can I duplicate a normal layer, make colour adjustments, USM, etc, and then fade back to the original? To me, this is clearly not an Adjustment layer, because it is very definitely working with pixel data.

I guess the intent of "use only Adjustment Layers" means you mustn't use any layers that aren't adjustment layers, but it really isn't very clear.

Message edited by author 2007-09-17 21:40:32.
09/17/2007 10:51:12 PM · #18
Question - if I create a duplicate layer, and on that layer do curves, then fade the opacity of that adjustment without changing the blending mode of the duplicate layer, is that allowable in basic? I could achieve the same thing by using less of a curve, but I'm lazy. :-)
09/17/2007 11:31:26 PM · #19
Originally posted by bnilesh:

it's very hard to digest disqualification on ribbion winner image because I am not either scalvert or Larus


Both of them have had DQs. Larus twice.
09/17/2007 11:54:02 PM · #20
Originally posted by Melethia:

Question - if I create a duplicate layer, and on that layer do curves, then fade the opacity of that adjustment without changing the blending mode of the duplicate layer, is that allowable in basic? I could achieve the same thing by using less of a curve, but I'm lazy. :-)

I guess the safest way is not to create layer at all. Just make adjustment on the same image layer, resize, USM (if required) and save. I think merging two layers is considered blending already, regardless of what you did on the created layer.
09/18/2007 12:30:00 AM · #21
Originally posted by chip_k:

Both of them have had DQs. Larus twice.

I am not discussing about the DQ of these great photographer but I am saying about the number of ribbon they have. For me it's like dream come true occasion & loosing even that is very difficult to digest.
09/18/2007 12:34:37 AM · #22
Originally posted by Melethia:

Question - if I create a duplicate layer, and on that layer do curves, then fade the opacity of that adjustment without changing the blending mode of the duplicate layer, is that allowable in basic? I could achieve the same thing by using less of a curve, but I'm lazy. :-)


You don't need a duplicate layer; just work on the base image, used adjustments/curves, and fade the result.

R.
09/18/2007 12:44:06 AM · #23
Originally posted by bnilesh:

Originally posted by chip_k:

Both of them have had DQs. Larus twice.

I am not discussing about the DQ of these great photographer but I am saying about the number of ribbon they have. For me it's like dream come true occasion & loosing even that is very difficult to digest.

Look it this way, at least now you know what it takes to ribbon. first one is always very difficult. But with time it becomes easier and easier. If you will apply yourself, I am sure we will see you on front again and again.
09/18/2007 01:50:44 AM · #24
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Melethia:

Question - if I create a duplicate layer, and on that layer do curves, then fade the opacity of that adjustment without changing the blending mode of the duplicate layer, is that allowable in basic? I could achieve the same thing by using less of a curve, but I'm lazy. :-)


You don't need a duplicate layer; just work on the base image, used adjustments/curves, and fade the result.

R.

Is it illegal if I use the duplicate layer, though? I'm used to doing that as a matter of generic workflow - I always duplicate the base layer then work on the duplicate. I also use adjustment layers (levels, curves, etc) separately so I can remove an entire layer if I don't like it. I've always assumed that as long as the adjustments are uniform (applied equally to all pixels) and I maintain the blending mode as "Normal", that it's OK for basic.
09/18/2007 02:08:31 AM · #25
I always understood that ANY layer other than an adjustment layer was illegal.
I think a number of adjustment layers would be okay, but not a duplicate layer. That's why I got in the habit of making a copy first and working on that. Am I wrong, SC?
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