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09/09/2007 11:52:13 AM · #26
Originally posted by Larus:

You know what... I am not going to change my style in making comments for anybody, if people don´t want to know why I personally did not vote their shot high and rather want another low score without a reason why, then I certainly won´t dissapoint them in the future.


When you leave purely technical comments you run the risk of making people feel as if you are only looking at images from a technical point of view or for technical flaws.

It's a general problem with the site overall when so many people are are being trained to look for things that are wrong with an image and not looking for what's right, as well.

I was reading a few of your comments the other week and found that most if not all of them were spot on and the images you chose to leave remarks on had little going for them (IMO) BUT a few did (I don't recall which ones, at the moment). My first impression was that you had missed the point of a few images and my second impression was that you were looking too technically at them. There's no way I could be sure of either but those were my thoughts. I could easily be wrong.

I'm trying to define this for myself, as well and not in relation to you but I've found my own comments especially when technically oriented are trite and that I'm often missing the true point of many images.

To paraphrase e301, people sometimes appear more concerned with commenting or telling people what the wish to see and less concerned with what they are being shown. Avoiding that trap seems to be a good guideline when commenting and probably a better approach to looking.

Again, I'm trying to define this for myself.

Message edited by author 2007-09-09 12:09:37.
09/09/2007 11:52:23 AM · #27
For what its worth, I have will only PM a comment maker to say thanks.

When I get a negative comment, or one that I do not agree with, I try and take what ever constructive thoughts they have and ignore the tone. And certainly see no point whats so ever in Pm-ing a negative comment maker. A comment is person sharing their opinion on your art. Its not right or wrong, it is opinion, take it as such.
09/09/2007 11:52:53 AM · #28
I was also one of the people that sent you a PM, I didnt think I was whinning or complaining, just wanted to understand why you voted the way you did. I was not mad at any point, and definetly did not want to make you upset. I really did appreciate your comment, sorry for the bother, wont do it again ;).



09/09/2007 11:03:58 PM · #29
Originally posted by Rae-Ann:

For what its worth, I have will only PM a comment maker to say thanks.

When I get a negative comment, or one that I do not agree with, I try and take what ever constructive thoughts they have and ignore the tone. And certainly see no point whats so ever in Pm-ing a negative comment maker. A comment is person sharing their opinion on your art. Its not right or wrong, it is opinion, take it as such.


very nicely said.
Sometimes people do not like my comments. So I try to leave them as little as possible. Why to write same 'wonderful picture' again and again to everyone.
I feel many people just want to listen what they like. If you go and tell the other person what you really felt. If it is little bit or more negative we tend to get offended.
And I think if everyone wants to listen only good things, we shall have a button above the comment box, named 'praise', when you press this button it shall put a randomly generated praise and put there. We the commentetor will save lot of time, and the people won't be angry. Win win situtation.

Isn't it.

Message edited by author 2007-09-09 23:04:33.
09/09/2007 11:53:41 PM · #30
Originally posted by Larus:

I am basically from now on done with commenting here, I don´t need this crap and I have better things to do so I´ll just keep my own apparently stupid ass opinions to myself from now on.


that's so unfair! i've always liked your stupid ass opinions...
please dont do this!
09/10/2007 07:29:03 AM · #31
Note: I've re-read this a few times. I guess I will press the "Post" button. Donning flame proof pants...

It's such a sad situation going on here...

Someone gives an honest opinion for a photo and they are told it's mean spirited, or even rude. Yet a photograph is an interpretation of a scene just like a comment is an interpretation of how the scene was portrayed.

This goes back to the same theory that people shouldn't rank photos under a certain score such as a 3. If that were the case, then the scale would be 3-10.

Grow up people. Not everyone will like your photos. Aren't we all here to aspire to do better? With regards to the comment about the horse -- I think it was pretty accurate. The horse is beautiful, no doubt there. But that's not the photographer, that's the horse. It was clear, in focus and properly exposed. Does that make it great? Was it creative? Did it give a unique perspective? Did it bring out a sense of power or motion? Did it give an insight to the personality of the horse? I have horses in the field behind my house. I can get them to stand still. Capturing a horse running evokes so much more emotion in my opinion. Watching them play and chase each other really shows their personality. That doesn't make the shot bad. It just means that it doesn't do much for me. Sorry, not meaning to pick on you loriprophoto. Some of your shots are AMAZING!

I don't expect everyone to like my work. Frankly, I don't always like my own work. That's why I'm here! To force me to improve and to get some honest (read NON SUGAR COATED) feedback. I also don't feel I should have to explain my comments or scoring to anyone.

Take it for what it is.
09/10/2007 07:45:41 AM · #32
I am of the way of thinking of several of the others here. If a commenter/voter gives me a bad comment I try to learn from it, I would never PM a voter if I didnt agree with his POV, well, maybe I'd PM a word of thanks, but never a derogatory comment..

I save them for the forums.
09/10/2007 08:00:03 AM · #33
stand-up move coming forward in public ... much respect. And from what I know of you on this site, I can't imagine he's referring to you. I once PM'd DrJones for further dialogue regarding his comment. I'm glad I did, I learned a little bit.

Larus, you've expressed discontent in the past regarding different things about this site. I admire your emotion, but I'm also sad for you that it ruins your experience here. Us "lifers" here at DPC have to take the good with the bad. Being a top photographer here, I'm sure you realize you're going to be targeted a bit more than a newbie. Just roll with it.

Originally posted by elsapo:

I was also one of the people that sent you a PM, I didnt think I was whinning or complaining, just wanted to understand why you voted the way you did. I was not mad at any point, and definetly did not want to make you upset. I really did appreciate your comment, sorry for the bother, wont do it again ;).
09/10/2007 08:14:11 AM · #34
Originally posted by Larus:

Originally posted by skewsme:

Making purely critical comments will tend to put the recipient on the defensive. You seem to want to help people - so maybe try keeping your comments balanced. It will keep the photographer receptive to what you have to say, and you won't get any whiney pm's.

If you can't find anything positive or constructive to say about a photo, you may not be looking hard enough. What use is a negative comment from someone who didn't even take a good look at your photo?


You know what... I am not going to change my style in making comments for anybody, if people don´t want to know why I personally did not vote their shot high and rather want another low score without a reason why, then I certainly won´t disappoint them in the future.


You know, Larus, I admire your work and rarely disagree with the substance of any of your comments I happen to read, but THIS statement strikes me as more than a little self-centered.

In your original post expressed your annoyance at those who responded to your comments in a negative manner, apparently because you hurt their feelings with the negative or dismissive tone of your comment/s. I certainly understand where you're coming from there (it's happened to me and it ticks me off when it does, but you're certainly intelligent enough to understand that if this happens to you frequently, there may be a communication problem.

Let's look at your original comment to Lori:

"Well this is not a bad picture but still, nothing really interesting about it either, this is just a photo I would expect to see if someone was advertising that horse for sale but there is nothing artistic about it.

If you look at this objectively, you can see how that could be taken as a pretty arrogant statement, surely? "not a bad picture", "nothing really interesting about it"... Consider an alternative:

While the lighting on the horse in this image is quite effective, showcasing the sleekness of the coat and modeling the musculature nicely, in the end there's nothing really interesting about the image IMO...etc etc.

It's always easier to digest negative comments if they highlight something about the image that DOES work. I wouldn't consider this a matter of changing your "style" of commenting, but rather call it an issue of "repackaging" your comments so they sound a little more balanced and the negative feedback becomes more palatable in context.

R.


09/10/2007 08:19:48 AM · #35
One thing I would like to add to this thread is this: commenting on challenge photos is one thing. I would expect an honest critique. However, I don't think our interest or disinterest in the photos' subject should influence our vote. I know, it's hard. But if the photo is say, of a cat and you don't really care for cats, but, it's an excellent photo AND it meets the challenge, then (this is a huge run-on sentence!), doesn't it deserve a score based on it's quality and pertinence to the challenge rather then on personal taste? I think so but that's just my opinion and shouldn't be subject to change...ok - done. I think...

(EDIT fur spellin')

Message edited by author 2007-09-10 08:21:16.
09/10/2007 08:29:31 AM · #36
You know what though, when I looked at that horse shot, my thoughts were the same as Larus'. While it is a nice photo, it really lacks "interestingness" to me. I can see how it may to some, but when I looked at it, the first thing I thought was - "there should be a price and a phone number where to buy the horse below". I know that sounds harsh, but it is no different then classifying a photo in any other way - except that its critical instead of praise. I see a lot of people complaining because people don't leave comments to justify scores they have given, but then when they do, you see people complaining about said comment. What people should really be saying is "I need more people to tell me that everything I do is perfect, my gas doesn't stink, and my bowel movements rival the beauty of the setting sun itself"

All comments really need to be taken for jsut that, a comment. Some will love it, some will hate it, but does it really matter? I understand you invest time into your work, so hearing something negative strikes as a personal blow, but if thats the case, I hope you never show your work anywhere else but on the internet, because picking fights with critics or crying in the corner at an art gallery because someone said one of your works was this or that, would probably be really embarrassing for everyone involved.

So what im getting at is this: take it for what it is, a comment, a tip, a critique, but not as a personal attack. You'll sleep better once you realize that.
09/10/2007 08:57:16 AM · #37
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


You know, Larus, I admire your work and rarely disagree with the substance of any of your comments I happen to read, but THIS statement strikes me as more than a little self-centered.


Well duh, of course it´s self-centered but why should I change what I do simply because other people don´t like it? I like me fine the way I am and I am not going to change simply because a person who I have never and probably will never meet in my life asks me to. I think the only people who have the right to do so are those in my immediate family.

Think the best way to keep everyone happy is to do what I for me to stop commenting altogether, then I don´t have to worry about having to sugar coat anything and people will stop being offended, so problem solved! :)

This the last I will have to say about the subject but if anyone feels the need to keep on discussing this, feel free.
09/10/2007 08:58:41 AM · #38
Originally posted by ajdelaware:

when I looked at it, the first thing I thought was - "there should be a price and a phone number where to buy the horse below". I know that sounds harsh


Why should that sound harsh? Many people on this site, including Larus most of the time, aspire to nothing beyond advertising images. Why is it suddenly derogatory in this case? Why is a good "product shot" of a horse, showing sensitivity and knowledge of what to look for in a horse, of any less value than a jeans or perfume ad?

Why are you people suddenly talking about art? Have I corrupted you? (yes it's always about me) hahaha
09/10/2007 09:08:54 AM · #39
Originally posted by Larus:


Well duh, of course it´s self-centered but why should I change what I do simply because other people don´t like it? I like me fine the way I am and I am not going to change simply because a person who I have never and probably will never meet in my life asks me to.


I don't think that's the issue, though. Why do you comment, after all? It's to communicate a point, isn't it? You have something you think's worth saying. And what I am trying to illustrate is a way of saying it that's more likely to be gracefully received, and hence constitutes "better" communication.

But of course, you DO have the other option, which apparently you've settled on: instead of altering your approach to communicate more effectively, you can opt not to communicate at all...

R.
09/10/2007 09:09:55 AM · #40
Ha. I dont know man. I feel like im stepping on egg shells wiht half the stuff I say here anyway, so I like to use qualifiers to keep from being the most hated (im ok with 2nd or 3rd most hated though)
09/10/2007 10:34:47 AM · #41
I receive very few negative PMs for my comments, and one of those very few was from Larus, ironically enough. And guess what? I changed my comment, and I do comment more carefully now. I haven't compromised who I am, just improved my communication skills.
09/10/2007 10:56:30 AM · #42
Originally posted by posthumous:

I receive very few negative PMs for my comments, and one of those very few was from Larus, ironically enough. And guess what? I changed my comment, and I do comment more carefully now. I haven't compromised who I am, just improved my communication skills.


This is well-stated and very wise (and the irony was duly noted ;))

Liza
09/10/2007 02:18:29 PM · #43
Okay I will repeat what my PM to Larus said, bear in mind that the comparison I used to put my point across was just an example and not aimed at the photographer who got 3rd in the speed challenge, it just happened to be up on the screen at the time and I used it. I was not impolite, I just stated my feelings. I am not sure if I can post his response here in the public forum or I would so this can all be put into the proper perspective

I wasnt whining or complaining I was just really PO'd that so many people are so negative about animal and children shots for example and his comment really got me. As for this photograph being easy to shoot (another comment I really resent), did you realise that it had been cut out and pasted onto another background? The original shot had a chainlink fence behind the horse, which I couldnt crop out while shooting, so I shot the same background straight afterwards but from a higher perspective so the fence would not interfere. I can post both originals if you would like. If you are a horse lover, especially a lover of Arabians, this horse will move you even with him standing still, just his pose and condition are enough. The owners wanted him posed in a very particular position (which I did) and believe me it was anything but easy, I had to choose the right time of day when the light was just right, the correct angle, constantly moving as the horse moved so that I could capture the moment at exactly the right time at the same time watching for ears pricked, lead shank out of the way, handler out of the way, correct height and arch in the neck and head and correct leg position etc. etc. The horse had to be groomed and prepared and we had to put up with the fact that he is a Stallion and we were at a horse show with many mares and other horses milling around. Yes this photograph is to be used to advertise him at Stud, not for sale but pretty much the same thing, and the people who contracted me rely on me getting the shot that when a prospective breeder sees the shot, they think WOW I have to breed my mare to him.

Anyway I digress, this is just to show that it is not a snapshot by any means, I have had those comments before and just because it is a horse doesnt mean it is easy.

Here is what I responded to Larus with :
quote
I dont normally reply to comments left on my challenge entries but felt compelled to reply to the one you left on my Free Study entry.

Firstly I wasnt aware that "artistic" was a prerequisite for a good photo. Take for instance the third placed one in speed recently, an overexposed, centrally composed, uncolorful hummingbird? What is artistic or even photographically sound about this photo (not taking away from the photographers placing). I have seen far better hummers recently than this one.

While my photo is not that outstanding, it is still well composed and exposed. I suppose what I am trying to say is, from a photographer of your standing on this site I would have expected a better thought out criticism.

Unquote

If someone could fill me on the etiquette on posting the rude message I got back from him I would appreciate it.
09/10/2007 02:38:09 PM · #44
Lori, I wouldn't worry about it. Like posthumous, I have also received a negative PM from Larus after I commented on one of his photos. Yet he doesn't want anyone to PM him about his comments? Double standard there!
09/10/2007 02:43:26 PM · #45
Ah, nevermind. It was a year ago tomorrow - water under the bridge by now. :)

Message edited by author 2007-09-10 14:55:12.
09/10/2007 02:55:16 PM · #46
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Just send the names to Art and he'll take care of it...

Ok - scanned the thread - but need clarification - am I burning the villages of those who PM'd Larus, or am I burning Larus' village, or both. I'm in a hurry, so if I don't hear back, I'll just dowse my torch and go back to work.
09/10/2007 03:02:04 PM · #47
Hey Art how about burning both our villages then you can go back to work LOL

09/10/2007 03:26:05 PM · #48
Originally posted by Larus:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:


You know, Larus, I admire your work and rarely disagree with the substance of any of your comments I happen to read, but THIS statement strikes me as more than a little self-centered.


Well duh, of course it´s self-centered but why should I change what I do simply because other people don´t like it? I like me fine the way I am and I am not going to change simply because a person who I have never and probably will never meet in my life asks me to. I think the only people who have the right to do so are those in my immediate family.

Think the best way to keep everyone happy is to do what I for me to stop commenting altogether, then I don´t have to worry about having to sugar coat anything and people will stop being offended, so problem solved! :)

This the last I will have to say about the subject but if anyone feels the need to keep on discussing this, feel free.


Bold added is mine to show exactly what I am referring to.

You don't have to change a thing. Of course, the fair thing would be not to bring it up in a public forum where people might suggest you need to, either. eh?

FWIW, I've been here 5 years. I've made in excess of 6000 comments. Yea, some of them were "sweet," but I've given my opinion on many many of those pictures, and some of those opinions weren't really flattering. I have received maybe one "rebuttal." Is it because I'm on SC? I don't think so -- a lot, if not most, of my comments were made before I was ever selected as SC. I would echo what someone else said, if a lot of people are complaining, and you don't like it, you could be the one to change.

And back to that argument, NO, you don't HAVE to, but you don't have to start forum threads about how much it bothers you either. You give your opinions on the pictures. Fine. Now, people are giving you theirs (opinions) here. Turnabout is fair play.
09/10/2007 11:10:06 PM · #49
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Just send the names to Art and he'll take care of it...

Ok - scanned the thread - but need clarification - am I burning the villages of those who PM'd Larus, or am I burning Larus' village, or both. I'm in a hurry, so if I don't hear back, I'll just dowse my torch and go back to work.


Hi Mr Art,
God bless your village burning business. We are happy with your interest, and would furnish you with the village details soonest. However our printer and fax machine died and we have to rent another to prepare the details. Would appreciate you to pay us a small amount upfront. Please pay using Western Union to xxx-xxxxx. Thank you.

09/11/2007 12:12:09 AM · #50
Some of my comments have brought others to tears but my motto is as long as I don't make baby Jesus cry I'm ok. Good thing nobody is registered as such.

[/end lame joke]
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