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01/18/2004 08:57:53 AM · #1 |
Let me first say that I know that the administration is trying to resolve this problem quickly and fairly and I appreciate the problems involved in trying to validate photographs. I feel very badly that this issue has arrisen and that I have caused a problem. I am not as concerned about the "ribbon" as I am about, frankly, just clearing my name. It may seem silly, but that is what is important to me. It is uplifting to me that people who do not even know me are giving me support and I do appreciate it.
I would like to summerize everything that has occurred to this point since this saga has been transpiring over several forums. On January 8 I was reading the forums and read that the top 5 or 10 pictures of the challenges were going to be asked to submit original photos with EXIF data to validate their entries. I had never concerned myself with this data before because frankly I was never asked for it in any prior contest and I have only won one ribbon previously. When I checked my camera I realized I had never set the date and that all of my entries would have the wrong dates attached. My score on my Owl picture was doing very well and I thought that I better let the administration know prior to the posting of winners that my EXIF date would not be correct. I emailed Langdon and he said "Your up front honest certainly will keep you safe. Thanks for letting us know in advance to avoid any issues.
I trust you're going to set the date correctly now. :)
-Langdon/DPC".
I did change the date in my camera and it will appear on my newest entry in the Perspective Challenge.
As you all know I did win 3rd place and I was disqualified because the date on my EXIF file said the picture was taken 4/25/03 and not 1/3/04 when I took the picture at the zoo along with another entry "Polar Bear Love" in the Action contest.
When questioned I said that if I was disqualified for this contest I should be disqualified for all the contests because all of my dates will be wrong. A major problem here is that I have never saved the original pictures on any previous images (I would be interested to know how many people have saved their original unedited pictures). I have saved the all of my finished images as Tiff files. All except for the Owl picture and the polar bear picture and now my entry in the perspective challenge. These 3 pictures are all still in my camera and have not been deleted. My understanding is that once you change ie. crop, sharpen etc. an image and save it in a different format then the EXIF data is changed. Is this true? Because to validate my time sequence of matching pictures to challenges the administration asked be to submit to them my picture from a previous challenge which I did send to them. So, If I have not previous EXIF data to prove that all my pictures are out of date sequence all I have to prove my case is circumstantial evidence.
Here it is.
1)I contacted the administration before the contest was over to let them know the problem. If they said it was a problem, I would have disqualified myself to avoid being disqualified in front of the whole site.
2)The EXIF data on the Owl Picture and the Polar bear picture says the pictures were taken 4/25/03. Why would I keep these pictures in my camera for so long and why would I submit them for these particular challenges as there were many challenges prior to this that I could have used them in.
3) I have the validated tickets to the Baltimore Zoo for January 3, 2004 which I have taken a picture of and am providing as proof that I was at the Zoo on that date. I will post this picture in the message following this message.
4) I have other pictures from the zoo that day also dated 4/25/03. I know this is a stretch but it is something I can prove. There is a picture of my son who was home with us on winter break and at the zoo with us on the actual date of the picture. The fact is that he was in college in Chicago on the EXIF date of 4/25/03.
5) If you look at my picture entries it is pretty obvious that many of the pictures I have submitted because of the subject of the picture and the subject of the theme could only have been taken for that theme. for example the "OOps" theme and the Tacky Xmas theme. There are many others that are theme specific if you would look.
6)Unfortunately, since I changed the date the picture numbers are not in the same sequence either so I can't offer the picture number sequence as proof that the pictures were taken in the allowed time frame.
6)So, when it comes down to it it appears that I am unable to provide EXIF date data which supports my claim all I have to stand on is my circumstantial evidence which I hope is enough to convince the administration that I have not cheated.
Again, I am sorry to have caused all these problems. I hope we can put this to rest soon. If I can provide any other information which will help to clear up this problem I would be happy to do so. Thank you for listening.
Message edited by author 2004-01-18 09:24:03. |
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01/18/2004 08:59:53 AM · #2 |
Here is the picture of my validated tickets to the Baltimore Zoo on January 3, 2004
//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/3306/thumb/55631.jpg?0
Sorry, Can someone show me how to make this image larger.
Message edited by author 2004-01-18 09:00:50. |
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01/18/2004 09:19:14 AM · #3 |
Your situation is a tricky one.
First let me say that I certainly believe you...no doubt there.
Unfortunately, as far as the challenge rules it is really a difficult choice and i wouldn't want to have to make it.
The rules clearly state the dates, but don't clearly state the proof needed to prove those dates. We know exif data generally is the proof.
BTW, you can keep the exif data after adjustments are made to your image. I learned this after a while. I used to save my images "to the web" which doesn't keep the data. Now I resize and do a "save as" which does keep the data.
I always always keep my original untouched images. I burn them onto CDs.
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01/18/2004 09:28:43 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by TerryGee:
Your situation is a tricky one.
First let me say that I certainly believe you...no doubt there.
Unfortunately, as far as the challenge rules it is really a difficult choice and i wouldn't want to have to make it.
The rules clearly state the dates, but don't clearly state the proof needed to prove those dates. We know exif data generally is the proof.
BTW, you can keep the exif data after adjustments are made to your image. I learned this after a while. I used to save my images "to the web" which doesn't keep the data. Now I resize and do a "save as" which does keep the data.
I always always keep my original untouched images. I burn them onto CDs. |
Resize and "save as" will keep exit data? I didn't know that. That would be quite useful. |
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01/18/2004 09:36:55 AM · #5 |
| i honestly don't see anything tricky about this situation. i am sure that we all will see the owl back in the third place very very soon. remember how many other great pictures were dqed - the swans for grace, for example... but there was cloning in that picture and the rules are the rules... then all that dodgin' and burnin', before it was allowed... blatant disregard for the challenge dates... all perfectly valid cases for disqualification... common sense shows that this is clearly different and i am sure that it will be resolved favorably... |
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01/18/2004 09:37:53 AM · #6 |
It will keep some of the data. For example, on my PBase gallery ... if I resize the pics, apply sharpness, and some modifications, etc. it will keep some of the EXIF data but not all. I know that at Digitalphotocontest.com, if you did anything, even rotate it in ACDsee, the file will be rejected by their automatic system.
Bottom line: Always keep a copy of the original.
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01/18/2004 09:44:50 AM · #7 |
so, what if you do your edits to image #001.jpg, and then "save as" #001_1.jpg? Does this keep the original EXIF data on 001.jpg? Or does it change it a bit? Is it better to make a copy, or duplicate image, and then work from that?
BTW: this issue (Inede's) is being discussed behind closed doors right now. I know you said it was being discussed in forums, but it may have been better to keep conversations within the Administration and Site Council rather than opening another thread.
Message edited by author 2004-01-18 09:46:29. |
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01/18/2004 09:49:26 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by KarenB:
so, what if you do your edits to image #001.jpg, and then "save as" #001_1.jpg? Does this keep the original EXIF data on 001.jpg? Or does it change it a bit? Is it better to make a copy, or duplicate image, and then work from that?
BTW: this issue (Inede's) is being discussed behind closed doors right now. I know you said it was being discussed in forums, but it may have been better to keep conversations within the Administration and Site Council rather than opening another thread. |
It changes a bit... you should always keep your unaltered original and work on a copy.
-Terry
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01/18/2004 09:51:03 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Jacko:
Bottom line: Always keep a copy of the original. |
Exactly. The first thing I do is make a copy and start editing that one.
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01/18/2004 09:53:51 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by KarenB:
BTW: this issue (Inede's) is being discussed behind closed doors right now. I know you said it was being discussed in forums, but it may have been better to keep conversations within the Administration and Site Council rather than opening another thread. |
I'm not even sure why this discussion is going on if the Council is still discussing the matter. This doesn't (IMHO) make the matter easier to resolve and could even cause divide between members and council...
Message edited by author 2004-01-18 09:54:45.
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01/18/2004 09:59:36 AM · #11 |
I hope it works out for you. I believe you and feel you have more then proven your case. Hopefully it's a lesson learned for everyone else CHECK THE DATE ON YOUR CAMERA!) and I hope to see your picture back up soon.
Unfortunatley there are some very sad, bottom feeder type people who have such pathetic lives that they need to cheat on something where the only prize is a pat on the back, just to make themselves feel better. These types of people ruin everything for the rest of us. |
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01/18/2004 10:16:03 AM · #12 |
The original file #001.jpg will stay intact if you save it as something else, yes. This should be done immediately, because if you forget to change the name and just do a "Save" you will have lost your original file.
Originally posted by KarenB:
so, what if you do your edits to image #001.jpg, and then "save as" #001_1.jpg? Does this keep the original EXIF data on 001.jpg? Or does it change it a bit? Is it better to make a copy, or duplicate image, and then work from that?
BTW: this issue (Inede's) is being discussed behind closed doors right now. I know you said it was being discussed in forums, but it may have been better to keep conversations within the Administration and Site Council rather than opening another thread. |
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01/18/2004 10:55:21 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
I'm not even sure why this discussion is going on if the Council is still discussing the matter. This doesn't (IMHO) make the matter easier to resolve and could even cause divide between members and council... |
I agree with this. I understand the need for Inede to clear hear his name, but the additional rhetoric is pointless and solves nothing. We can all yammer about it later if necessary.
SEQUESTER THE JURY! SEQUESTER THE JURY! |
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01/18/2004 11:45:16 AM · #14 |
Hey,
I find it hard to believe, from this thread or the previous ones, that anyone believes that you have done something illegal. We all make mistakes & I believe that this was an honest one. We support you bc we believe you thus clearing your name seems, at least to me, unnecessary.
I hope that your shot will not be disqualified but even if it is, I would hope that you will not feel like you did anything illegal on this site. Like others who have posted before me, I support you but most importantly, I BELIEVE you!
Keep your spirits & your head held up high! You did every right & with honest intentions. I'm sure others b4 you who have DQed have been less than candid & your candor speaks to your honesty. :)
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01/18/2004 12:41:04 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Rooster:
Hey,
I find it hard to believe, from this thread or the previous ones, that anyone believes that you have done something illegal. We all make mistakes & I believe that this was an honest one. |
First, I'm not participating in this SC discussion (more time restraints than anything), but unfortunately, it's not hard for me to believe anything of the type. The last person we DQ'd also had "made innocent mistakes" regarding the dates ... on some 10-20 entries, and was quite convincing and sincere. We have recently found another similar situation. So ultimately I don't think belief or sincerity can play a viable role in this type of decision; facts are necessary.
I don't think I'm violating a confidence when I suggest that you all double-check the date (and TIME) in your camera, as very soon we will no longer be accepting out-of-date photos, period. |
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01/18/2004 03:21:20 PM · #16 |
This would be a good time to also go back and read your manual.
I found out my camera has an internal battery that is recharged only if I have a battery inside the camera or plugging the camera into the adapter.
I usually charge my batteries outside the camera so there was a potential of the dates being erased or reset if I don't use my camera for a while. So now I recharge 1 battery in the camera just in case so the internal batteries get some juice. |
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01/18/2004 04:23:28 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
...snip...
BTW: this issue (Inede's) is being discussed behind closed doors right now. I know you said it was being discussed in forums, but it may have been better to keep conversations within the Administration and Site Council rather than opening another thread. |
I think that "behind closed doors" is exactly where this discussion belongs. It's not for the general voting public to decide this issue, it's for the SC; and should be between the SC and the photo owner.
As for saving originals, I always save my originals and work on copies.
Message edited by author 2004-01-18 17:02:56.
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01/18/2004 04:34:47 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by lhall:
[quote]...snip...
BTW: this issue (Inede's) is being discussed behind closed doors right now. I know you said it was being discussed in forums, but it may have been better to keep conversations within the Administration and Site Council rather than opening another thread. |
I think that "behind closed doors" is exactly where this discussion belongs. It's not for the general voting public to decide this issue, it's for the SC; and should be between the SC and the photo owner.
As for saving originals, I always save my originals and work on copies.[/quote]
I think this is a good point bc that it exactly waht is happening. I dont think we are deciding what will happen more than discussing it. I can;t even imagine what the poor fella is going thru right now. I for one am glad that we can support him & let him know that there is some comfort that can be gained thru thte forums, especially during this frustrating time.
I hope I'm not over dramatising things but it can be kinda gut wrenching not know how you will be perceived when you know your intentions were pure, you know?
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01/18/2004 04:36:18 PM · #19 |
In all fairness (and as others have stated below already), the final decision should be left to those who have been designated to make them, as a matter of due process. Whatever the outcome, we would, IMHO, do best to support it, if not by conviction and the merits of this particular incident, then for the good and integrity of a site we are all so much a part of.
Since no system is infallible, it is reasonable to expect situations and circumstances which cannot be clearly determined and ruled upon without differences of individual opinions and viewpoints. I trust that these kind of contradictions and the debates are not only reflected in the forums but are equally a part of the administrative/council proceedings. Any decision arrived at via reasonable deliberation and consideration, IMO, will be immeasurably better than none or one arrived at by the toss of a coin.
I concede that Inede appears to have done everything anyone could expect, which, to me, shows not only a forthcoming willingness to play by the rules but also admirable character. If the decision should be unfavourable, Inede might benefit from knowing that he has, albeit via individual sacrifice, contributed to the common good and that we -if anyone is with me on this- recognize this.
Message edited by author 2004-01-18 16:38:09.
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01/18/2004 05:03:50 PM · #20 |
@inede.
i symphatize with your situation, but we'd have to understand what the administrators did. if they let you go on this one, then they'd have to let everybody else go... including those who would cheat using the same reason as yours. may the thought of a lot of people finding your shot beautiful be a consolation to you.
* * *
about the exif data... i believe it's stays with copies of the images. try right-clicking on a photoshop altered image, click properties, click the summary tab, then click the advance button. it should display the exif data.
the problem though is, the administrators need the original image. unfortunately in your case, your original image has the incorrect date. |
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01/18/2004 07:06:14 PM · #21 |
| Since so many people seem to have a problem with the correct date in their camera or do not know how to save their files so the exif data is there maybe someone should right a little piece on "how to" not lose the info and post it in one of the appropriate forums. Just a suggestion. Than no one can say I didn't know how. |
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01/18/2004 07:23:52 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by sonnyh:
Since so many people seem to have a problem with the correct date in their camera or do not know how to save their files so the exif data is there maybe someone should ... |
If you know how, why don't you write it up? All of the other tutorials were created that way .... |
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01/18/2004 07:44:43 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by sonnyh:
Since so many people seem to have a problem with the correct date in their camera or do not know how to save their files so the exif data is there maybe someone should right a little piece on "how to" not lose the info and post it in one of the appropriate forums. Just a suggestion. Than no one can say I didn't know how. |
I believe the process of checking and changing the date is different for most cameras and should be covered in each camera's manual. Even if you save a file with the EXIF data intact, you still have to submit the original file(s) to DPC and those usually are not saved, just uploaded from the camera.
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01/18/2004 11:01:53 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by sonnyh:
Since so many people seem to have a problem with the correct date in their camera or do not know how to save their files so the exif data is there maybe someone should right a little piece on "how to" not lose the info and post it in one of the appropriate forums. Just a suggestion. Than no one can say I didn't know how. |
Not to be a total horse's rear about this but here are the steps:
1. - Read your manual to figure out how to set the date/time. Its your responsibility if you want to work on this site and I can't tell you any better than the manufacturer how to work your camera(s).
2. - To save exif data retrieve all the images off your camera onto your hard drive. Do not open them, do not edit them, do nothing to them except burn them to a CD (or if you have the money a DVD). Now you can edit to your heart's content in Adobe Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, etc and you never have to worry that you don't have a copy of an image with exif data. If your camera collect and retains exif data (and that has to do with how your manufacturer designed the camera) then you'll always have a copy (or at least you'll have a copy for the next 5-10 years which is the length of time that a CD is expected to store data I think).
As for who does this, I do. I have almost 100 GB of photos (not that any of them are going to win any contests) and I have stack after stack of CD's that I buy when the shops run them for $29 with a $25 rebate or 100 for $39 with a $35 rebate so that I end up spending about 5 bucks for a ton of CD's. I started doing this when I was using my Sony DSC-S85 and I continued the practice as I upgraded. It takes more CD's now but that's a small price to pay (less than $0.50 per CD) to have copies of all the images I shot in a year backed up.
I can understand not knowing how to work some parts of a piece of technical equipment but seriously, this has to do with workflow as much as knowledge of technology. Once you set the time in your camera, save your originals before you edit them.
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