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05/28/2002 02:26:01 PM · #1
I finally finished voting this week with the exception of one photo... I'm waiting till I get home so I can look at this photo on my monitor rather than on a laptop...

I spend a lot of time looking at these photos and commenting on them. I am proud to say that I have left some type of comment on every photo past the 'curves' challenge. Some of my comments are short and sweet and some are detailed and elaborate. My will to comment on every photo is getting very weak.

I will be reforming my commenting procedure beginning with the next challenge. During the last few challenges, I have received less than 15% comments. I don't care to get 100% comments but I would ultimately like to have comments from at least half of the photographers that have posted photos in the challenge. Out of the 15% of the comments I have been getting, I may get two or three constructive comments, if I'm lucky.

I am not going to set a number of comments that I plan to give, but the number will be limited to photos that I score at 8 or better. In this current challenge, that means that I would have left 23 comments instead of the 106 that I left. It's much easier for me to comment on photos that I like. I believe that this is the way most voters comment here anyway. Lower scoring photos don't generate comments unless they have some amount of 'shock' value or something.

Maybe in the future, as this site grows, there would be a challenge where comments were required. Not just comments, but some type critical or evaluational comment. "Nice photo" and "Great job" and "I don't like this" one-liners are simply a waste of time and effort. I'm happy that someone writes "Nice photo" but I would just as soon not see it in a comment unless there is some qualification behind it.

Maybe there would be a group of photographers here that would be interested in a challenge where serious evaluational comments for each photo are required.

My appetite for feedback on my submissions is starving me to death here :)

05/28/2002 02:34:39 PM · #2
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I finally finished voting this week with the exception of one photo... I'm waiting till I get home so I can look at this photo on my monitor rather than on a laptop...

I don't think it is practical to expect or provide detailed, considered, constructive feedback on every picture.

This is especially true without any knowledge of the photographer, what they already know/ don't know or even want to know. In some cases I could think of a variety of comments to give but
1/ don't know if the photographer already knows this
2/ don't know if they really want detailed feedback
3/ don't know if they would understand without a lot of explaination

It might be possible to pick one or two pictures per week and get a fairly detailed deconstruction/ discussion going on just that picture. It is really difficult to do it without some level of 'interaction' with the photographer though.


05/28/2002 02:34:58 PM · #3
John, I''m sad to hear this. Even though I agree with you, it would be nice to receive more constructive comments, especially when the ratings aren''t high, if you just vote on the high ones there''s one less photographer that provides usable constructive feedback.

I don''t always manage to comment on all photos, either, but I comment on as many as I can and I generally start at the bottom of my ratings and then just add comments to the top ones if I don''t make it all the way through all the pictures.

What I have noticed is that as I write more and more comments, it gets easier, even for the 4-6 ratings, because you start to notice so much more. I would hope that others would look at those that comment much (and with content) and maybe follow their lead (I know I did). But then again, not everyone will ever do that. I''ve also noticed that it helps me evaluate my own photos more objective.

Don''t give up!

As for a "comments required" challenge, I''m up for it, but I will continue to comment as much as my time allows me anyways.

Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I finally finished voting this week with the exception of one photo... I''m waiting till I get home so I can look at this photo on my monitor rather than on a laptop...




* This message has been edited by the author on 5/28/2002 2:36:20 PM.
05/28/2002 02:49:28 PM · #4
I agree with this... It would be more useful for me to comment on my three lowest vote categories rather than the three highest... :)

Originally posted by gr8photos:
John, I''m sad to hear this. Even though I agree with you, it would be nice to receive more constructive comments, especially when the ratings aren''t high, if you just vote on the high ones there''s one less photographer that provides usable constructive feedback.



Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]I finally finished voting this week with the exception of one photo... I''m waiting till I get home so I can look at this photo on my monitor rather than on a laptop...

[/i]


05/28/2002 02:49:59 PM · #5
I am also trying to decide if I will commit the time neccesary to comment on each photo this week. I did last week, and received a dissapointing 15 or so comments in return. However, a couple of them did have some useful suggestions.

My photo this week, I am proud to say, is the first I have submitted without doing any set-up. It is completely candid. So,I am getting comments about how it could have been set up better. I think its imperfections are part of its charm. But what the (*&) do I know?





05/28/2002 02:55:19 PM · #6
I'm not sure how many comments I leave but I know I do not leave for every picture. I'm not an expert but there are some pictures that I look at and I can definitely think of something to improve it. Sometimes its just a great picture that I don't know what to say that's constructive. I try not to leave comments that are just "Nice picture" any more. Only if it is something that really touchs me somehow will I leave a comment that may not really be considered constructive.

In the last challenge, and now in people, I'm trying to leave at least 50% comments. Most of my comments will go to the pictures I rated low as those that rated higher probably don't need so much constructive criticism or its just beyond my ability to do so.

I think it would be a good idea to pick a picture and write a detailed description of it in the forums. I would love to hear what some of the better photographers would say. Perhaps we should force the top three winners to pick a photo, NOT in the top 10 and rate it. I guess we'll have to get permissions from people to have their photo rated.
05/28/2002 02:56:16 PM · #7
I'm trying hard to make sure I evenly speread out my comments between the very goods and very bads. I'm trying to comment on between a third and a half of the photos. I think people need to read about what we think is wrong with a picture as well as what is right about it. I really wish we could lock in a vote after a comment has been entered and then allow the commentor's name to be seen. I would just prefer that kind of interaction with the photographer during the week of the challenge and not a week later when another challenge is on our minds.

Hey John, thanks for all your input and expertise you bring to this site, it's appreciated.

Tim
05/28/2002 02:57:34 PM · #8
I also noticed from my previous challenges, that the better the picture does the more comments I get. I wonder if anyone else sees this.
05/28/2002 02:57:39 PM · #9
I would like to see that too. Any volunteers to be roasted?
05/28/2002 02:58:00 PM · #10
I have no expertise... I just know what i like and what I don't like and I'm not afraid to say it :)
05/28/2002 02:59:41 PM · #11
I think that's a great idea also... However, I don't think it should be done with photos that are in the current challenge...

Originally posted by chariot:

I think it would be a good idea to pick a picture and write a detailed description of it in the forums. I would love to hear what some of the better photographers would say. Perhaps we should force the top three winners to pick a photo, NOT in the top 10 and rate it. I guess we'll have to get permissions from people to have their photo rated.



05/28/2002 03:03:24 PM · #12
Although I am aspiring to be called a "photographer", I still have much to learn. I can say what I like or don't like about a photo, but don't feel qualified to provide a lot of constructive criticism that seasoned photographers might give. I am learning more and more every day, and think I understand the basics. Consequently, I don't comment on all of the photo's. I do comment on the one's I like the most, and some of the one's I rate the lowest if I really have some constructive criticism to offer. I think John may be expecting more than many of us can provide.
05/28/2002 03:03:32 PM · #13
John,

I think a lot of times, people will vote and then come back later to comment. I know that beginning with this challenge, I'm really going to try to comment on every one of them. But it's something that I'm going to do as the week progresses, when I have the time.

In my case..I just feel that I'm not qualified enough to be able to make a remark about what they "should have done" or what I would "like to have seen done". I'm not a professional at this and I wouldn't even attempt to try and tell you what I think is wrong with something. I either feel something towards the photo or I don't. You say that "nice photo" and "I like this" are a waste of time...I agree that you should add WHY you like this...or why you think it's a nice photo...but I've written a few comments that say, "I really don't know what it is about this...I just like it". Sometimes it's just a feeling.....when you see it.

Maybe it's harder for some folks to comment on things they don't really like. Maybe they just don't have the time to remark on 106 photos by Tuesday. Maybe they are just lazy and don't care. Who knows..but when you're dealing with this many people on a website...I don't think you can expect a happy medium.

Just my opinion.. :0)
05/28/2002 03:05:47 PM · #14
I don't expect more than anyone can provide. If you like a photo, what makes you like it? Can you put any of that into words? What about if you don't like a photo? Can any of that be put into words? I'm not asking for constructive criticism from everyone. I can't even give constructive criticism on some of these photos. If I can't give that criticism, I let the photographer know it though :) That is a compliment in itself :)

Originally posted by pnicholls:
Although I am aspiring to be called a "photographer", I still have much to learn. I can say what I like or don't like about a photo, but don't feel qualified to provide a lot of constructive criticism that seasoned photographers might give. I am learning more and more every day, and think I understand the basics. Consequently, I don't comment on all of the photo's. I do comment on the one's I like the most, and some of the one's I rate the lowest if I really have some constructive criticism to offer. I think John may be expecting more than many of us can provide.



05/28/2002 03:07:39 PM · #15
I'm not unhappy.. lol I'm sorta like the plant in "little shop of horrors"......... FEEEEDDDDDDDDD MMMEEEEEE SSEEEYYMMOOORREEEEEEE ;)

Originally posted by KDJohnson:
John,

I think a lot of times, people will vote and then come back later to comment. I know that beginning with this challenge, I'm really going to try to comment on every one of them. But it's something that I'm going to do as the week progresses, when I have the time.

In my case..I just feel that I'm not qualified enough to be able to make a remark about what they "should have done" or what I would "like to have seen done". I'm not a professional at this and I wouldn't even attempt to try and tell you what I think is wrong with something. I either feel something towards the photo or I don't. You say that "nice photo" and "I like this" are a waste of time...I agree that you should add WHY you like this...or why you think it's a nice photo...but I've written a few comments that say, "I really don't know what it is about this...I just like it". Sometimes it's just a feeling.....when you see it.

Maybe it's harder for some folks to comment on things they don't really like. Maybe they just don't have the time to remark on 106 photos by Tuesday. Maybe they are just lazy and don't care. Who knows..but when you're dealing with this many people on a website...I don't think you can expect a happy medium.

Just my opinion.. :0)



05/28/2002 03:09:19 PM · #16
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think that's a great idea also... However, I don't think it should be done with photos that are in the current challenge...

Originally posted by chariot:
[i]
I think it would be a good idea to pick a picture and write a detailed description of it in the forums. I would love to hear what some of the better photographers would say. Perhaps we should force the top three winners to pick a photo, NOT in the top 10 and rate it. I guess we'll have to get permissions from people to have their photo rated.

[/i]

Definitely not. I would suggest picking a photo from the previous challenge but from any challenge would probably be ok.

05/28/2002 03:13:00 PM · #17
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[i]I'm not unhappy.. lol I'm sorta like the plant in "little shop of horrors"......... FEEEEDDDDDDDDD MMMEEEEEE SSEEEYYMMOOORREEEEEEE ;)

LMAO! yeah...that too.
05/28/2002 03:13:34 PM · #18
if people REALLY want more detailed commentary then come to the forums, post your photo and let's talk about it.

My opinion is that a lot of people are frightened of real critique and would not come to the forums. I know this because I work with High School kids in a graphics art/yearbook after school class a couple times a week and they are terrified of critical comment. I require them to submit themselves to open critique at least once every two weeks so they can have face to face discussions with their peers.

I even bring my stuff in for them to rip on :-)

So..if you really want critiques post in the forums...lets talk about it.

05/28/2002 03:15:50 PM · #19
I think that's a great idea.. Maybe we can get Drew and Langdon (actually Langdon since he does all the manual labor ;)) to open up a new forum specifically for critique purposes... Whaddya think?

Originally posted by hokie:
if people REALLY want more detailed commentary then come to the forums, post your photo and let's talk about it.

My opinion is that a lot of people are frightened of real critique and would not come to the forums. I know this because I work with High School kids in a graphics art/yearbook after school class a couple times a week and they are terrified of critical comment. I require them to submit themselves to open critique at least once every two weeks so they can have face to face discussions with their peers.

I even bring my stuff in for them to rip on :-)

So..if you really want critiques post in the forums...lets talk about it.




05/28/2002 03:17:30 PM · #20
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I don't expect more than anyone can provide. If you like a photo, what makes you like it? Can you put any of that into words? What about if you don't like a photo? Can any of that be put into words?


I did comment on your photo that I liked the angle of the shot. After reviewing some of the other comments, I particularly agree that some side lighting on the darts would have improved the image. At the time I was making the comments, this didn't occur to me. Maybe next time I will recognize that, whether it be in my shot or someone elses.
05/28/2002 03:19:19 PM · #21
I don't think I'm a "qualified photographer" and therefore am entitled to give constructive criticism, however, I do have opinions about photos (and they may not be the same as yours) and I do assume that you would like to hear (and then potentially disagree with ;o) other people's opinions since you are posting your photos to this website.

When you critique a photo, just ask yourself what you would try to do differently (note: not necessarily better or worse) if you had to take the same shot, and also, what you would try to have come out the same way. That's all there is to commenting on photos. Then, if you have the expertise and you can explain what to do to actually make those changes you suggest, that's great, if not, it's a starting point for the photographer to start doing research on IF he/she agrees with your comment.
05/28/2002 03:20:35 PM · #22
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think that's a great idea.. Maybe we can get Drew and Langdon (actually Langdon since he does all the manual labor ;)) to open up a new forum specifically for critique purposes... Whaddya think?


I think that is a good idea. Heck, even if only the bravehearted and somewhat experienced photographers post there at least some of the new folk can get some info as spectators.

We sorta already do this in an informal way but having a specific forum for this might help folks feel more inclined to submit to the torture ...errr...I mean helpful critiques :-)

05/28/2002 03:21:32 PM · #23
I did actually try some side lighting.. the problem with that is that the survace of the brass is shiny like chrome.. it caused the suraface to absorb the colors on the dart board and made it quite unattractive. The board is positioned as such to eliminate that problem and create the best possible (in my own twisted mind) photo.

There are a million ways to photograph a dart board... I chose this specific view because I hadn't seen it done quite like this before. I have actually rarely seen a dart board photo where the dart flights were not visible...
05/28/2002 03:30:47 PM · #24
i used to try to comment every photo. and i exhorted everyone else to comment as well. whether or not my actions had anything to do with it, comments went way up. I got as many as 52 comments on one picture! up from 9.

now it seems as if people are slacking back off : P . i know i have - just way too many obligations last week. but whenever i can i will comment on every photo i can muster something, anything to say.

it's the least i can do if i expect to receive them as well.
05/28/2002 03:43:25 PM · #25
How about forcing a comment if you rate something a 1 or a 2 and then also for 9 or a 10. That may not be what you are looking for John but what i like about it is that we can bring out some of these people that enjoy rating pictures a 1 or a 10 and find out if they really mean it or if they are just pulling our chains.
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