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06/25/2007 06:06:10 PM · #126
Originally posted by rugman1969:

I understand the system is broken, and totally agree. What I can't understand is this guy is slamming the government(not that they don't deserve some of it), but saying the government should be doing something. Thats like saying the cars they sell suck, but I'm going to buy one from them anyway.


I hear you - the gov'ment's no panacea. But my argument is that while there are definate problems with it, it's still the only appropriate way to go.

To use your car analogy, I would buy their cars anyway, if the only other vendor was a sock puppet manufacturer. And at the same time, I would do all I can to pressure the car manufacturer to make the cars as good as they can - as good as we can afford.

The problem with the private market is that it's not accountable to those it doesn't serve. The government isn't as accountable as it should be (by any stretch of the imagination) but at least it's supposed to be. The private for-profit not only isn't accountable, but has no mandate to be. So they will, and do, actively write people off.
06/25/2007 07:48:15 PM · #127
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm gonna put it to you guys point blank. Most areas of our country have a healthcare worker shortage. Nurses are in high demand and they make good money because they are.


Where? Not seeing HIGH pay around here.

As before, most of the patients I deal with, are on Medicaid, most don't have jobs becuase then they would not qualify for it anymore. There are many (not all) that abuse the system---ie: woman wearing a full leather Bronco jacket, leather chaps, and bragging about the American Chopper bicycle that they are buying their son (because he ended up in the ER), then asking for "samples" because they are on Medicaid and can't afford his GENERIC antibiotics. How is all this gonna be paid for if the gubment takes it over? Do we get to make the people who use the system work it off, since they don't have jobs to pay for it anyway? Come into the hospital and you get to sweep floors for so many hours.

I already have been paying over $200 a month for 10 years for the insurance I have used 2 times for a Office visit (and still have $30 copays). On top of that I have over 22% of my paycheck robbed to give to the gubment for others care.

And I did not have insurance from when I was 18 to 29 (after I got my degree and a $30000 debt to get it), when I started working in hospital.
06/25/2007 08:02:51 PM · #128
Originally posted by eamurdock:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

I understand the system is broken, and totally agree. What I can't understand is this guy is slamming the government(not that they don't deserve some of it), but saying the government should be doing something. Thats like saying the cars they sell suck, but I'm going to buy one from them anyway.


I hear you - the gov'ment's no panacea. But my argument is that while there are definate problems with it, it's still the only appropriate way to go.

To use your car analogy, I would buy their cars anyway, if the only other vendor was a sock puppet manufacturer. And at the same time, I would do all I can to pressure the car manufacturer to make the cars as good as they can - as good as we can afford.

The problem with the private market is that it's not accountable to those it doesn't serve. The government isn't as accountable as it should be (by any stretch of the imagination) but at least it's supposed to be. The private for-profit not only isn't accountable, but has no mandate to be. So they will, and do, actively write people off.


Then why not try and fix it so that private for-profit were held more accountable? I much rather see solutions that work within the current framework than to just create another government entitlement program that won't work. Maybe if there was ONE government program out there that actually did work it would be a different story. However maybe they all do work if the goal is to enslave everyone to the government. Maybe we should get all our food and water from the government as well?

Message edited by author 2007-06-25 20:04:08.
06/25/2007 08:05:39 PM · #129
moving this to rants, guys.
06/25/2007 08:47:30 PM · #130
Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Too all of you Moore followers:
Why is it that Michael slams the government by saying they are a bunch or morons, but then wants health care to be run by the government?
Isn't there something wrong with this? Hello???? Can anyone answer this?


I've never seen a Michael Moore film.

I can't necessarily say that the single provider plan where the government extends Medicare (or a similar plan) to all is the best solution either. I will say this: The current system is BROKEN.

I understand the system is broken, and totally agree. What I can't understand is this guy is slamming the government(not that they don't deserve some of it), but saying the government should be doing something. Thats like saying the cars they sell suck, but I'm going to buy one from them anyway.


The reason the "government sucks", as you put it, is not what they've done, but more, what they've failed to do or even try to do. They could develop a solution, but the leaders don't seem to have the intestinal fortitude to get the job done.

06/25/2007 09:12:01 PM · #131
Originally posted by yanko:

Then why not try and fix it so that private for-profit were held more accountable? I much rather see solutions that work within the current framework than to just create another government entitlement program that won't work. Maybe if there was ONE government program out there that actually did work it would be a different story. However maybe they all do work if the goal is to enslave everyone to the government. Maybe we should get all our food and water from the government as well?


I'm all for it. I'm for any solution that is (a) financially efficient and (b) inclusive. And I think your point that there are a great number of programs with different and overlapping missions and mandates is valid, more than valid. This is exactly what I'd like to see fixed.

So let's propose a system where there's one agency with a mandate to make sure care is available to everyone who needs it. If you can do that outside the government I'm open to it... But I have yet to see such a non-governmental solution proposed.

I won't dismiss a private solution out of hand if you won't dismiss a public one. These talks get bogged down not because the solutions are that difficult, but because politics shuts down discussion. And that gets fixed with conversations like this one.

Originally posted by frisca:

moving this to rants, guys.


Understood, but I think it's fair to note that the discussion has been fairly civil as yet. I think we all deserve a pat on the back. <pat-pat>
06/25/2007 09:45:37 PM · #132
Originally posted by rugman1969:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by rugman1969:

Too all of you Moore followers:
Why is it that Michael slams the government by saying they are a bunch or morons, but then wants health care to be run by the government?
Isn't there something wrong with this? Hello???? Can anyone answer this?


I've never seen a Michael Moore film.

I can't necessarily say that the single provider plan where the government extends Medicare (or a similar plan) to all is the best solution either. I will say this: The current system is BROKEN.

I understand the system is broken, and totally agree. What I can't understand is this guy is slamming the government(not that they don't deserve some of it), but saying the government should be doing something. Thats like saying the cars they sell suck, but I'm going to buy one from them anyway.

No, he's saying that this government sucks, not the idea in principle. A well-run governement program (c.f. Medicare, op cit) can work well, save money, and provide better services than the profiteering latter-day robber-barons will ever allow.

Notice that the people running the country are all (relatively or extremely) rich and have government-paid health care for life and have multiple government pensions to live on for life -- they have no concept nor care for what it means to be an "ordinary citizen" in this country. They rail against "welfare" while giving billions of tax breaks to the already-rich. They are the epitome of selfishness and a paradigm of hypocrisy.

Message edited by author 2007-06-25 21:56:08.
06/25/2007 09:54:16 PM · #133
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I don't always agree with you Paul, but here you are singing my tune. :)


We gotta get outta this place
If it's the last thing we ever do
We gotta get outta this place
--There's a better life for me and you

-Barry Mann and Cynthia Weill

I've been working in health care, serving marginalized and underserved populations, since 1974. Fortunately, though I have tons of paperwork, none of it involves private insurance.
06/26/2007 03:32:22 AM · #134
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm gonna put it to you guys point blank. Most areas of our country have a healthcare worker shortage. Nurses are in high demand and they make good money because they are.


Where? Not seeing HIGH pay around here.


Nurses make great money in California. A friend of mine got a starting salary as a nurse with no experience of $70,000 per year in San Diego. She also said that she had a choice of working five 8 hour days, four 10 hour days or three 12 hour days to count as full-time. Additionally, if she worked both Saturday and Sunday, it counts as a full work week.
06/26/2007 08:25:59 AM · #135
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm gonna put it to you guys point blank. Most areas of our country have a healthcare worker shortage. Nurses are in high demand and they make good money because they are.


Where? Not seeing HIGH pay around here.


Nurses make great money in California. A friend of mine got a starting salary as a nurse with no experience of $70,000 per year in San Diego. She also said that she had a choice of working five 8 hour days, four 10 hour days or three 12 hour days to count as full-time. Additionally, if she worked both Saturday and Sunday, it counts as a full work week.


In California, that's not what I'd call great money.

Try buying a house with that kind of salary.

06/26/2007 12:51:39 PM · #136
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm gonna put it to you guys point blank. Most areas of our country have a healthcare worker shortage. Nurses are in high demand and they make good money because they are.


Where? Not seeing HIGH pay around here.


Nurses make great money in California. A friend of mine got a starting salary as a nurse with no experience of $70,000 per year in San Diego. She also said that she had a choice of working five 8 hour days, four 10 hour days or three 12 hour days to count as full-time. Additionally, if she worked both Saturday and Sunday, it counts as a full work week.


In California, that's not what I'd call great money.

Try buying a house with that kind of salary.


You're insane. $70,000 a year for a starting salary for a person with no experience is absolutely amazing by any standard. Do you know how long you have to be in the military to make that kind of money? Even as an officer with a bachelor's degree? Even with a Master's or PhD? And she has the opportunity to work only two days a week (Sat and Sun) and count that as full time for her full salary! Or, she could work "overtime" and make a bunch more.

If you don't think $70,000 as a starting salary is great pay, then I would like to know what industry you are in. When I retire from the Marines, I want to do what you do!

Unaffordability of housing in CA is a separate issue. But, as it happens, the nurse I'm speaking of has bought a condo.
06/26/2007 12:58:02 PM · #137
Originally posted by eamurdock:

Originally posted by yanko:

Then why not try and fix it so that private for-profit were held more accountable? I much rather see solutions that work within the current framework than to just create another government entitlement program that won't work. Maybe if there was ONE government program out there that actually did work it would be a different story. However maybe they all do work if the goal is to enslave everyone to the government. Maybe we should get all our food and water from the government as well?


I'm all for it. I'm for any solution that is (a) financially efficient and (b) inclusive. And I think your point that there are a great number of programs with different and overlapping missions and mandates is valid, more than valid. This is exactly what I'd like to see fixed.

So let's propose a system where there's one agency with a mandate to make sure care is available to everyone who needs it. If you can do that outside the government I'm open to it... But I have yet to see such a non-governmental solution proposed.

I won't dismiss a private solution out of hand if you won't dismiss a public one. These talks get bogged down not because the solutions are that difficult, but because politics shuts down discussion. And that gets fixed with conversations like this one.

**********

A big part of the problem in fixing the current system is that as things stand now the healthcare insurance industry co-opts politicians with huge sums of money in the form of campaign contributions and lobbying efforts in congress from PACs. This results in legislation that benefits the lobbyists, and corrupts public health policy in favor of the big healthcare corporations. Maximizing profits is their ultimate goal, not providing quality healthcare, but imo, universal healthcare, while not a panacea, at the least will allow more control and oversight by the public whereas now the politicians are only listening to the rich corporations. Hardly democratic in an area that should provide equality for all.

Even yesterday, the US Supreme Court threw out a campaign finance law that would have placed restrictions on corporations and unions from buying advertising close to elections. The US government is no longer really accountible to the common man and woman, but to the very rich who can afford to buy favors from those in power, and who put them in power to begin with.

I have not seen the Michael Moore film yet, but I don't believe he's saying that any system is a panacea, but rather that we should look at how other countries who provide universal care for the their citizens are doing it and try to adopt the best of their systems. (AND, not let politics play with the lives of our people.)
06/26/2007 01:09:48 PM · #138
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm gonna put it to you guys point blank. Most areas of our country have a healthcare worker shortage. Nurses are in high demand and they make good money because they are.


Where? Not seeing HIGH pay around here.


Nurses make great money in California. A friend of mine got a starting salary as a nurse with no experience of $70,000 per year in San Diego. She also said that she had a choice of working five 8 hour days, four 10 hour days or three 12 hour days to count as full-time. Additionally, if she worked both Saturday and Sunday, it counts as a full work week.


In California, that's not what I'd call great money.

Try buying a house with that kind of salary.


You're insane. $70,000 a year for a starting salary for a person with no experience is absolutely amazing by any standard. Do you know how long you have to be in the military to make that kind of money? Even as an officer with a bachelor's degree? Even with a Master's or PhD? And she has the opportunity to work only two days a week (Sat and Sun) and count that as full time for her full salary! Or, she could work "overtime" and make a bunch more.

If you don't think $70,000 as a starting salary is great pay, then I would like to know what industry you are in. When I retire from the Marines, I want to do what you do!

Unaffordability of housing in CA is a separate issue. But, as it happens, the nurse I'm speaking of has bought a condo.

********

Those employment conditions are not universal accross the country, and in most states is far lower without the scheduling benefits your friend has got.

06/26/2007 01:13:09 PM · #139
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I'm gonna put it to you guys point blank. Most areas of our country have a healthcare worker shortage. Nurses are in high demand and they make good money because they are.


Where? Not seeing HIGH pay around here.


Nurses make great money in California. A friend of mine got a starting salary as a nurse with no experience of $70,000 per year in San Diego. She also said that she had a choice of working five 8 hour days, four 10 hour days or three 12 hour days to count as full-time. Additionally, if she worked both Saturday and Sunday, it counts as a full work week.


In California, that's not what I'd call great money.

Try buying a house with that kind of salary.


You're insane. $70,000 a year for a starting salary for a person with no experience is absolutely amazing by any standard. Do you know how long you have to be in the military to make that kind of money? Even as an officer with a bachelor's degree? Even with a Master's or PhD? And she has the opportunity to work only two days a week (Sat and Sun) and count that as full time for her full salary! Or, she could work "overtime" and make a bunch more.

If you don't think $70,000 as a starting salary is great pay, then I would like to know what industry you are in. When I retire from the Marines, I want to do what you do!

Unaffordability of housing in CA is a separate issue. But, as it happens, the nurse I'm speaking of has bought a condo.


In most locations in the US, $70K is a great starting salary, but in California, what that salary gets you is significantly less than elsewhere.

I've turned down job offers with salaries significantly higher than $70K in CA because the only place to live with the salary being offered were either studio apartments or in areas where crime was rampant.

If you want an even better paying profession, try pharmacy. The work is easier than nursing and you can get a degree in pharmacy straight out of high school. Often companies will pay for all or part of your education and the starting salaries can be upwards of $80K.

Also, military pay in most cases is better than what the salary figures alone suggest since most people compare only base military pay to a corporate salary. If you include items like BAH and the cost of health insurance etc., military pay is pretty good. The work can get a bit rough though as I'm sure you're aware.

BTW, I'm in engineering, I mostly design and build mechanical test fixtures. Ex-military folks seem to do quite well in this type of work.

Message edited by author 2007-06-26 13:27:36.
06/26/2007 01:15:19 PM · #140
Believe it or not Texas has the highest pay/cost of living ratios for nurses. Here in Alabama, even starting pay for a nurses outpaces that of most jobs.
06/26/2007 02:19:51 PM · #141
Originally posted by OmanOtter:


In California, that's not what I'd call great money.

Try buying a house with that kind of salary.


You're insane. $70,000 a year for a starting salary for a person with no experience is absolutely amazing by any standard. Do you know how long you have to be in the military to make that kind of money? Even as an officer with a bachelor's degree? Even with a Master's or PhD? And she has the opportunity to work only two days a week (Sat and Sun) and count that as full time for her full salary! Or, she could work "overtime" and make a bunch more.

If you don't think $70,000 as a starting salary is great pay, then I would like to know what industry you are in. When I retire from the Marines, I want to do what you do!

Unaffordability of housing in CA is a separate issue. But, as it happens, the nurse I'm speaking of has bought a condo. [/quote]

he's right. that isn't alot of money in San diego. That sounds liek alot but they pay more becasue otherwise people couldn't live and no body would work there. Most of the saleries i have seen for nurses in the places i have lived are in the range of 30-40 thousand which to me is not allot.
06/26/2007 02:28:22 PM · #142
Young people aren't entering the nursing field because of more lucrative jobs in other areas...one of the reasons for a big nursing shortage in this country where so many people are out of work or have jobs with menial salaries and no benefits. Why, in a country whose economic priniples are based on supply and demand, are there low wages for people in the nursing field?
06/26/2007 03:02:46 PM · #143
Well I've spent a lot of time in California (mostly in San Diego and Monterey), so I understand the cost of living issues there well. I still say that $70K for a STARTING SALARY of a person with no experience is fantastic.
06/26/2007 03:15:19 PM · #144
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Well I've spent a lot of time in California (mostly in San Diego and Monterey), so I understand the cost of living issues there well. I still say that $70K for a STARTING SALARY of a person with no experience is fantastic.


It's a good starting salary for CA. It would be great elsewhere.

There are higher starting salaries in less stressful jobs.

Salary is only part of the package. What that salary can buy in the local market is a huge factor. That $70K would simply go much further elsewhere.

A few months ago I figured out that to maintain my standard of living with a move to California, I would need to nearly triple my salary.
06/26/2007 03:17:31 PM · #145
Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Why, in a country whose economic priniples are based on supply and demand, are there low wages for people in the nursing field?


Because hospital administrators are cheap SOB's and rather than hiring more nurses, they think they can save a buck by simply adding to the duties of the existing nurses.
06/26/2007 03:22:13 PM · #146
Salary.com's Nurse's Salary in San Diego

Message edited by author 2007-06-26 15:24:48.
06/27/2007 05:26:42 AM · #147
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Salary.com's Nurse's Salary in San Diego


Well, I don't know what to make of this. It seems to show that 70,000 is on the high end for nurses in San Diego. So, one would not expect a brand new nurse to make $70,000 there. But that's what my friend says she is making as a brand new nurse. Hmmm.
07/02/2007 01:49:08 AM · #148
Great film... i just saw it. I think he's got another oscar winner on his hands.

If there's going to be change in the country's healthcare system, I think this filmmaker is the one to spark the fire.

04/16/2008 12:34:07 PM · #149
That was a powerful moment. For me that was probably one of the most enlightening clips in the film. The fact is that insurance companies make more money when they deny people - basing a health system on private sector profits is worth reconsidering.

People can hate Michael Moore but when we hear something like this, we should march the streets (but as he said in the film; we won't).

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Do you think Dr. Linda Peeno is lying when she testifies in front of congress about her role in denying health care to patients in need of medical service when she worked as medical reviewer for HMOs?
04/16/2008 12:47:04 PM · #150
Originally posted by metatate:



People can hate Michael Moore but when we hear something like this, we should march the streets (but as he said in the film; we won't).



The problem with marching in the streets is that with the current psycho anything goes as long as you’re a corporation administration you'll get your phones tapped and the FBI or DHLS would likely harass you. And heaven forbid practice a long time held American tradition of civil disobedience and you'll be classified as a terrorist.

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