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06/24/2007 12:26:57 AM · #51
sure does seem funny that so many Americans who love freedom of speech want Mr. Moore to shut up and leave. People always say that if he doesn't like it so much he should leave. I say BS just because you want things to change doesn't mean you don't like the place.

many of you love it here yet you make posts about how things should change and those posts sometimes cause huge debates, should i tell you to leave or even worse that you should have a heart attack and leave? I always thought that republicans were religious but i guess I was wrong because my god wouldn't want me to wish harm on someone just because they have an agenda that i don't agree with. Rush Limbaugh IMO is an idiot but i don't want him to leave or even get off the air. too much of one side is bad. there has to be yin and yang. if people like Michael Moore in the history of the US didn't question things why would anything ever change.

This American says F**k those that don't want at least a two party system and for all to have freedom of speech within the laws set forth. I put my life on the line and lost friends and loved ones so that anyone can say how they feel. You guys are entitled to your opinion and I love to hear most of them.
06/24/2007 12:39:03 AM · #52
Elvis, he can say whatever he wants, I just think he's a pompous ass. Even if he were to say something I agree with, I wouldn't be able to stand him.

Oh and Rush is a pompous ass too :-D

And Ken Rockwell Never miss a chance to bash Ken Rockwell :-)

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 00:45:43.
06/24/2007 01:41:42 AM · #53
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Elvis, he can say whatever he wants, I just think he's a pompous ass. Even if he were to say something I agree with, I wouldn't be able to stand him.

Oh and Rush is a pompous ass too :-D

And Ken Rockwell Never miss a chance to bash Ken Rockwell :-)


I agree with Leroy 100%. Freedom of Speech refers only to preventing the GOVERNMENT from controlling our speech. It doesn't mean people can't call you a pompous ass and other choice names when you deserve it. Nor does it give you a license to be a pompous ass.

I have no idea who Ken Rockwell is, though.
06/24/2007 02:10:09 AM · #54
hes a photographer i believe
06/24/2007 02:49:41 AM · #55
I haven't seen the movie. I will, but not in the theaters (I have an odd way of not paying money or boosting ratings for something I don't care that much for, but I digress). I will wait for it to show on HBO or Showtime or some other channel that I already pay for (even though I don’t agree with some programming (see above digression)). Anyway, I will see it just like I watched his other movies. Not because I care about what he will say or all the “good” things he will show us about Cuba’s “stellar” health care system, but rather so I can keep an eye on the other side of the fence…test the left side of the political waters. I can’t wait to see all the right side come out with “the other side of Sicko” where they show crappy run down health care facilities and starving babies in Cuba. Question to ponder: When Fidel Castro gets sick, what does his health care system look like? Does it look the same as the guy’s cutting tobacco in the fields of Cuba?

And although I haven’t done a lot of research on the subject, the “one for all, all for one” style of health care doesn’t appeal to me at all. I work hard for my money. My paychecks don’t have many commas or zeros in them, and at the end of the day I want to pay for the health care of me, my wife, and our two dogs. Not some guy down the street that I’m already paying taxes to send him a monthly check while he sits on his ass. If he wants decent health care, go out and get a job that has some, just like I did. It isn’t that hard.

Food for thought.
-drew

edit:spelling

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 02:50:29.
06/24/2007 08:48:41 AM · #56
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Elvis, he can say whatever he wants, I just think he's a pompous ass. Even if he were to say something I agree with, I wouldn't be able to stand him.

Oh and Rush is a pompous ass too :-D

And Ken Rockwell Never miss a chance to bash Ken Rockwell :-)


nothing wrong with not liking him, just don't like it when people wish ill upon someone for no good reason. Hell there are a couple of Pompous asses here too.

Drew i agree with what you said but pretty much on the opposite side:) That to me is the beauty of America. There are people here that do jobs that I would never consider doing that make my life better. I want them to stay healthy so I don't have to do thier job. Also one of the American dreams is to own your own business. Most small business owners can't afford insurance and that saddens me. It is one of the primary reasons that My wife and I are not Photographers for a living. While i lean left I also agree about the person that doesn't WANT to work.

06/24/2007 09:43:08 AM · #57
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

see this kid
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/56658/thumb/523760.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/56658/thumb/523760.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

If I lived in Canada he would be DEAD. I am not trying to be over-dramatic just factual. If we lived in Canada when he was born he would be dead.


...and you do have tangible evidence to back this statement up do you? I would love to see it.

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

he was born too premature to be considered viable in Canada.


I look at the photo of your son, and look at a photo of my daughter when she was at the neo-natal unit of the hospital and she seems to have been significantly smaller than your son..(weighed less than two pounds) and yet she survived and is now 21 years of age.

Just how do you come about to suggest that Canada's health care system determines what is not viable. I have a problem with sweeping generalization, particularly when made by someone who I would venture has had no experiences whatsoever with the system he is accusing of nonfeasance or worse.

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

Sure we have tons of problems with health care but i don't want a system that lets kids die to save money.


I do hope that this portion of your statement is not directed at the health care in Canada, because that is simply not the case. I have lived experiences very similar to yours, and can assure you that the medical services provided were first class, and would be available to me regardless of my financial status.

You make mention of insurances, which is definitely a good thing in situations such as those you describe. What about the working poor who cannot afford insurance... what happens to them?

All factors considered, I would venture to say that even with its problems, the health care system here serves the population well.

I don't pretend to know anything about the health care system in the USA, and as such will NOT partake in making any disparaging remarks about it... You might consider doing the same about ours.

Ray

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 09:49:07.
06/24/2007 09:49:14 AM · #58
Originally posted by RayEthier:


I look at the photo of your son, and look at a photo of my daughter when she was at the neo-natal unit of the hospital and she seems to have been significantly smaller than your son..(weighed less than two pounds) and yet she survived and is now 21 years of age.



the photo of my son is at 3 weeks. he weighed 453 grams when born (one pound even)

An why do i have to argue with you about this too? read the rest of the thread and you will see that Louis has already championed your country's cause and my wife and I have both posted that is the info that we got from several sources but that we gladly accept it may have not been correct. I know you like to argue and all but this thread was past this so please drop it.

PS glad to hear your daughter grew up well:) Always nice to hear good stories of the medical field.

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 09:54:40.
06/24/2007 09:58:24 AM · #59
F Linda Peeno ! Of course there are some issues around the country. The system is too big for it to run perfect. For every Linda Peeno story, I can tell you ten stories of GREAT CARE here in this DOG of a city NEW ORLEANS.

Come down to New Orleans and bring your American Kid to any of the hospitals. You will get GREAT care if you have insurance AFTER waiting in line in back of everyone else there getting care THAT DON'T HAVE INSURANCE.

In the last 2 1/2 years since the hurricane I have NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF ANYONE GETTING TURNED DOWN GREAT MEDICAL CARE IN NEW ORLEANS.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

Originally posted by kenskid:

This American says F**K Michale Moore - that lying bastard. I bet his fat ass won't go to a Cuban hospital when he as a heart attack!
Kenny


Do you think Dr. Linda Peeno is lying when she testifies in front of congress about her role in denying health care to patients in need of medical service when she worked as medical reviewer for HMOs?

06/24/2007 10:05:58 AM · #60
Originally posted by kenskid:

F Linda Peeno !


great, insightful rebuttal. You keep saying that you have seen great care in N.O. well that is great but if you think that is exactly how it runs everywhere, you have you head in the sand.

I am glad you can tell me ten great stories for every bad story. but that is not good enough. for every Enron there are hundreds of great companies that do right by their employees. that doesn't make what they did less wrong or give those employees their lives back. You admit that their are some problems but you don't want anyone to do anything to fix them.

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 10:06:50.
06/24/2007 10:13:41 AM · #61
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

[quote=RayEthier]
....I know you like to argue and all but this thread was past this so please drop it.

PS glad to hear your daughter grew up well:) Always nice to hear good stories of the medical field.


Dropped.... and thank you.

Ray
06/24/2007 10:37:25 AM · #62
I retract all previous statements that I've made on the movie.

I would encourage everyone around the world to see it. Please make sure our friends in Mexico and Central America see it. Hopefully the world will see what a bad system we have here in the U.S. and they will stay out of our local hospitals and doctors offices. Imagine that ! I could get the same great care I've come to know and not have to wait all day behind citizens of other countries that are fleeing their own GREAT healthcare systems to come here!

I want to see a bigger release of Sicko around the world !

Bring Moore on!

Kenskid
06/24/2007 11:09:12 AM · #63
Originally posted by Elmakias:

hes a photographer i believe


Yes, and a pompous ass. :-)
06/24/2007 11:29:29 AM · #64
Okay for all of you saying that Canada's health care system isn't good can you tell me why my Aunt who is a former Seattle resident came to Canada for treatment? It would of taken almost a year to get her operation done in US and cost lots of money. Came to Canada got it done within a month and cost a fraction of what she would of had to pay.

But then I have another case which is the complete opposite. When my little brother was born he was very big. After a couple months my mom just knew something was wrong, but every doctor she went to said "Oh yeah he's just an overweight baby." My mother thought knew they weren't right and spent countless hours every single day for months researching and looking for doctors, and finally found one all the way down in Maryland to take him in. After a very expensive flight that way paid by our Canadian Health Care system. They were able to diagnose him with something called Prader Willie Syndrome. If you read the link to Prader Willie Syndrome some facts about my brother are different as he was also born without his Pituitary Gland. Which controls hormones and alike. So he's been taking growth hormone his whole life(we've taken him off it now) So he is very tall and he is overweight, but its not his fault. People look at him every day like he's some obese kid that just eats and eats and eats. It's not the case though. He has no control over his size. He used to be double his size but he works out almost every night now just so he can be at the weight he is now.
So after being diagnosed in Maryland he now has visits there every 2 years and has frequent check ups at our Children's Hospital in Vancouver who do a great job. But if we lived in America we would be living in a very low income life style. Because here in Canada we have never paid 1 cent for my brothers medication. Which would cost usually about 2 grand(give or take, im not the one who orders it) a month. So we're very lucky to have such a good health system in Canada.
Each system both have their ups and downs. We've been forunate to have the ups of both systems.
and for my little bro, well the doctors said he wouldn't live past 7... but he's now 11 and doing great.

sorry.. that was a little rantish.
06/24/2007 12:42:46 PM · #65
Originally posted by noisemaker:

Each system both have their ups and downs.


really all that needs to be said
06/24/2007 12:50:02 PM · #66
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

Originally posted by noisemaker:

Each system both have their ups and downs.


really all that needs to be said

But, of course, it won't be.
06/24/2007 02:18:49 PM · #67
The quality of health care here in the US is among the best in the world, assuming that you are either rich enough or have insurance that let you access that care. In most cases, that means a job with a company that offers group benefits.

God forbid you lose that job and the corresponding benefits, in my case it was through outsourcing (That's a whole 'nother rant entirely). The COBRA rate to continue my coverage was in excess of $1200/mo. Way out of my price range, especially considering that my salary had been dropped to $0.

Now, go and price private insurance for a family of four, it's expensive not as expensive as COBRA, but damn close. Oh yeah, try getting it when one of your family members has some medical history. The response from all of the insurance companies" "Coverage Denied". We applied to at least a dozen insurance companies, it seems they only want to offer coverage if you're not going to need it.

If you're in the US and have good insurance, it's easy to look out the window and say "Let them eat cake." On the outside, the reality is grim and the system is indeed broken.

Edit to add: I haven't seen the film. Honestly, I don't think I will. Having just gone through the hell of no insurance and "I'm sorry, treatment for that is not covered under your overpriced POS private insurance you pay an arm and a leg for." I don't feel I need to to see it. I get the point.

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 14:29:48.
06/24/2007 02:41:59 PM · #68
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The quality of health care here in the US is among the best in the world, assuming that you are either rich enough or have insurance that let you access that care. In most cases, that means a job with a company that offers group benefits.

God forbid you lose that job and the corresponding benefits, in my case it was through outsourcing (That's a whole 'nother rant entirely). The COBRA rate to continue my coverage was in excess of $1200/mo. Way out of my price range, especially considering that my salary had been dropped to $0.

Now, go and price private insurance for a family of four, it's expensive not as expensive as COBRA, but damn close. Oh yeah, try getting it when one of your family members has some medical history. The response from all of the insurance companies" "Coverage Denied". We applied to at least a dozen insurance companies, it seems they only want to offer coverage if you're not going to need it.

If you're in the US and have good insurance, it's easy to look out the window and say "Let them eat cake." On the outside, the reality is grim and the system is indeed broken.

Edit to add: I haven't seen the film. Honestly, I don't think I will. Having just gone through the hell of no insurance and "I'm sorry, treatment for that is not covered under your overpriced POS private insurance you pay an arm and a leg for." I don't feel I need to to see it. I get the point.


I agree with you 100% on this! I went nearly 2 years without insurance and much needed medications. COBRA was $1200 (same as yours) and my medications were about $800. As soon as I received coverage, I ended up in the hospital. Now we're playing the "let's try to get this mess straightened out game".
06/24/2007 06:28:16 PM · #69
Let's see...the ED I work in, I RUN my ass off in to get patients to see the MD in less than 30 minutes and try to get them treated and released, etc in less than 2 hours... doesn't (and CAN'T) ask about their insurance anyway...not until after they have seen the MD (and everything is usually done anyway). So, who knows who has insurance or not.
Most people with insurance are asked to pay their co-pay before leaving (usually$150 and up)...and almost all I have witnessed do. Medicaid and the Indigent Care Program are also required to make a copay, too. $3! I have NEVER witnessed that being payed...when asked. The business associates usually don't even ask for it anymore, anyway. The carton of cigarettes in the purse is proof of no money.
About 90% of my patients end up being Medicaid or Indigent care...less than 1% ever get admitted for their problems...because we are treated as a clinic and not an Emergency Room. that is why YOU wait for your problem.
If everyone is looking for socialized medicine...too bad...we already pretty much have it. Just others still have a choice to purchase more expensive insurance.
06/24/2007 06:40:59 PM · #70
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:

Let's see...the ED I work in, I RUN my ass off in to get patients to see the MD in less than 30 minutes and try to get them treated and released, etc in less than 2 hours... doesn't (and CAN'T) ask about their insurance anyway...not until after they have seen the MD (and everything is usually done anyway). So, who knows who has insurance or not.
Most people with insurance are asked to pay their co-pay before leaving (usually$150 and up)...and almost all I have witnessed do. Medicaid and the Indigent Care Program are also required to make a copay, too. $3! I have NEVER witnessed that being payed...when asked. The business associates usually don't even ask for it anymore, anyway. The carton of cigarettes in the purse is proof of no money.
About 90% of my patients end up being Medicaid or Indigent care...less than 1% ever get admitted for their problems...because we are treated as a clinic and not an Emergency Room. that is why YOU wait for your problem.
If everyone is looking for socialized medicine...too bad...we already pretty much have it. Just others still have a choice to purchase more expensive insurance.


If more people had access to preventative care and were able to actually go see a doctor in an office, they would not be waiting until the problem has gotten so bad that they go to the ER for everything.
06/24/2007 08:18:20 PM · #71
Originally posted by hsolakidis:

I just finished watching it... Wow...

Why do you Americans stand for this?

Go ahead and download it... Mr Moore certainly doesn't mind....

Harry


Because...Americans refuse to stand in line for months on months to get surgery done by a socialized medicine based system.

Because WE pay for expensive pharmaceuticals so countries like Canada and elsewhere can have them cheaply.

Because we also pay for hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants from Mexico. Which gives me an idea for American healthcare woes. Let's run across the border to Canada. =)

In truth, I've never known anyone who was poor not to get medical coverage. In fact, most poor people have access to medical care in the U.S. Those who are usually struggling with healthcare are working poor and the self-employed. These are the ones who don't qualify for welfare medical programs and don't receive healthcare through their jobs.


Message edited by author 2007-06-24 20:33:14.
06/24/2007 08:21:44 PM · #72
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

[quote=hsolakidis]

I'm not a Micheal Moore fan but I like the fact that he was pro Napster.


It's funny.

The truth is always shocking, and welcome.

The people that reveal the facts behind the truth are always disliked.


Michael Moore and the word "Truth" go about as much hand-in-hand as the words Whale and a atmospheric flight. It may happen every now and then or perhaps in a Douglas Adams novel but that's about it. So much of what he puts forth and alludes to is usually disproved. But it makes great hype.

"It looked like a cruise missile" (I wonder how many people who saw Michael Moore's film ever saw the full video of that quote. You might be surprised to know that the guy states he saw the airliner flying low, like it was a cruise missile". Michael Moore just conveniently cut the one portion that alludes to his desired reaction.

Michael Moore is just a greedy capitalist. And the father of crapumentaries.
06/24/2007 08:31:42 PM · #73
I don't know why I'm wading into this...

The American healthcare "system" does indeed have the ability to work some technological miracles. And that's great. So every anecdote about someone who was saved by extraordinary measures has some validity.

BUT...

every healthcare system makes some decisions about where it's going to put its dollars, and the way care is allocated. And when designing a system, there are more important measures than what can be done for the most critically ill.

Efficiency in health care comes from effective wellcare, not from critical care. The "illegal aliens" that people complain about (and I can make a unrelated rant about this - these are PEOPLE who are trying to feed their families - you'd do the same if you had to), and other poor folks who recieve subsidized care, end up driving up health care costs MORE in our current system because they don't have regular access. So instead they present for acute care, which is (a) expensive, and (b) relatively ineffective.

Basic health care is a human right.

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 20:39:30.
06/24/2007 08:49:22 PM · #74
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

Drew i agree with what you said but pretty much on the opposite side:) That to me is the beauty of America. There are people here that do jobs that I would never consider doing that make my life better. I want them to stay healthy so I don't have to do thier job. Also one of the American dreams is to own your own business. Most small business owners can't afford insurance and that saddens me. It is one of the primary reasons that My wife and I are not Photographers for a living. While i lean left I also agree about the person that doesn't WANT to work.

-I hope the beauty of America is that those who strive to better themselves and work hard are rewarded with decent jobs, salary, benefits, etc. Not that those who work hard, go to college, & better themselves in the work place can pay for those that are happy making minimum wage with their nose to the ground towing the line.
-Yes, there are people out there doing jobs that support my way of life. I, at one point, did some of those jobs. I didn't like it too much, so I went to college and worked my butt off to succeed (and am still working said butt off). I too want working people to stay healthy, so we should be on the employers and unions to offer better benefits. With that said, these benefits should be at the expense of said employers, not you and me trying to get by and supply our families with the care they need. Of course this cost will be passed on to us anyway with an increase in costs of good and services. My salary will go up due to an increase in the cost of living, meaning my company will have to charge more for their goods and services...eventually passing that buck up the ladder. Cyclical systems are a bitch to present in forums :p
-But I guess, in the end, that is how a capitalist system works. If a person isn't happy with their current situation, this great country of opportunity will certainly allow for that person to better themselves and thus improve their situation. Unfortunately it currently allows for those that don't want to apply themselves to suck money from you and me and have no incentive for bettering themselves and their situation.
-Saving small business for another post...this one's getting lengthy...and confusing.

No one is being held back by anyone but themselves.
-drew

edit to summarize: I don't mind paying for healthcare of other people, if I pay for it by purchasing goods and services, not with tax dollars to be allocated by non-term limited government officials who talk big talk before an election...but in January fail to deliver.

Message edited by author 2007-06-24 20:58:56.
06/24/2007 08:55:31 PM · #75
Originally posted by Spazmo99:


If more people had access to preventative care and were able to actually go see a doctor in an office, they would not be waiting until the problem has gotten so bad that they go to the ER for everything.

This would be nice, but the majority DO NOT even try to see a MD in the office or the Public Health Care system...because they are seen here by a MD in less than 30 minutes. We ARE the Public Health System.
COughing for 3 weeks, smoking a 2 packs of cigs a day, and not able to get into see the MD in an office is a usual complaint
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