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06/23/2007 08:47:17 PM · #26
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

If we lived in Canada when he was born he would be dead.

Want to explain what the hell you mean by this? I'm fairly certain that premature kids are born in Canada and survive. And I'm equally certain that Toronto has the best children's hospital in the world. Also, from the Sick Kids' website: "In the 1960s, SickKids opened one of the first intensive care units in North America devoted exclusively to the care of critically-ill newborn and premature babies."

Also, Canadian hospital for chlidren pioneers surgery for premature infants

Your generalization is weird and alarming, and faintly insulting.
06/23/2007 09:06:05 PM · #27
Originally posted by Louis:

And I'm equally certain that Toronto has the best children's hospital in the world.


sorry. but _this_ is the best children's hospital in the world.

and the fact that they employ me has very little to do with that boast...

;)
06/23/2007 09:06:53 PM · #28
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

If we lived in Canada when he was born he would be dead.

Want to explain what the hell you mean by this? I'm fairly certain that premature kids are born in Canada and survive. And I'm equally certain that Toronto has the best children's hospital in the world. Also, from the Sick Kids' website: "In the 1960s, SickKids opened one of the first intensive care units in North America devoted exclusively to the care of critically-ill newborn and premature babies."

Also, Canadian hospital for chlidren pioneers surgery for premature infants

Your generalization is weird and alarming, and faintly insulting.


not a generalization. at the time my son was born (not sure about now) but babies born as early as him (24 weeks) and as small as him (453 grams) were not considered viable to save. I never said they don't ahve good health care for babies I said MY son would be dead.

When he was born he was in the hospital for 4 months. crystal pretty much stayed there the entire time. I spent all my available time trying to research his situation whn i came across that info. Canada was not the only country BTW. I asked our doctors and nurses and they confirmed it.

I did just find info that suggests that they do try at least after 25 weeks now. but not sure about under 25.

edit: i had mistyped some info.

Message edited by author 2007-06-23 22:06:56.
06/23/2007 09:08:23 PM · #29
Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by Louis:

And I'm equally certain that Toronto has the best children's hospital in the world.


sorry. but _this_ is the best children's hospital in the world.

and the fact that they employ me has very little to do with that boast...

;)


they all may be great but i vote for this one:)
06/23/2007 09:11:42 PM · #30
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

they all may be great but i vote for this one:)


nice try, but at st jude, the family never pays. never.
06/23/2007 09:13:26 PM · #31
Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

they all may be great but i vote for this one:)


nice try, but at st jude, the family never pays. never.


but st judes didn't save My kid so i am a little biased:) for the record though if anyone ever wanted to donate money any of these hospitals or any other children's charity is the way to go.
06/23/2007 09:20:46 PM · #32
anyway... back on topic...

canadian press reaction to sicko :
//www.imdb.com/news/sb/2007-05-21/#2

pictures of what the rest of cuban clincs are like :
//www.gentiuno.com/articulo.asp?articulo=2167

as always, there's two sides to every story. taking micheal moore's "documentaries" at face value is like trust jim jones not to spike your drink. you'd be better off getting your own glass...
06/23/2007 09:31:53 PM · #33
Originally posted by kudzu:

anyway... back on topic...

canadian press reaction to sicko :
//www.imdb.com/news/sb/2007-05-21/#2

pictures of what the rest of cuban clincs are like :
//www.gentiuno.com/articulo.asp?articulo=2167

as always, there's two sides to every story. taking micheal moore's "documentaries" at face value is like trust jim jones not to spike your drink. you'd be better off getting your own glass...


I would agree. in all of his films he provides a bunch of info that is new to most people but it is always slanted. I don't blame him for it because he is showing the info how HE sees it. As with any topic I always encourage people to seek another point of view (unless it is rush limbaugh's just a joke please no flaming)
06/23/2007 09:45:27 PM · #34
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

I would agree. in all of his films he provides a bunch of info that is new to most people but it is always slanted. I don't blame him for it because he is showing the info how HE sees it. As with any topic I always encourage people to seek another point of view (unless it is rush limbaugh's just a joke please no flaming)


Well said. Of course the information he presents has some truth behind it, but through editing, anything can be made to look evil. It's naive to see these works then come away thinking it's the only side of a coin. What's especially frustrating is when people see these works then begin preaching their message to anybody that will listen as though they are an expert on the subject after watching a Michael Moore film (I'm not saying anybody in this post has done this - just a personal pet peeve). I enjoy the films, I think they open peoples eyes and make them think, but they also need to be taken with a grain of salt before going off and condemning a country (or their government at least).
06/23/2007 09:50:08 PM · #35
Originally posted by S_Lanterman:

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

I would agree. in all of his films he provides a bunch of info that is new to most people but it is always slanted. I don't blame him for it because he is showing the info how HE sees it. As with any topic I always encourage people to seek another point of view (unless it is rush limbaugh's just a joke please no flaming)


Well said. Of course the information he presents has some truth behind it, but through editing, anything can be made to look evil. It's naive to see these works then come away thinking it's the only side of a coin. What's especially frustrating is when people see these works then begin preaching their message to anybody that will listen as though they are an expert on the subject after watching a Michael Moore film (I'm not saying anybody in this post has done this - just a personal pet peeve). I enjoy the films, I think they open peoples eyes and make them think, but they also need to be taken with a grain of salt before going off and condemning a country (or their government at least).


I also hate it when people (generally conservatives) refuse to watch his films or acknowledge anything in them. We all ahve something to learn, and something to fix.
06/23/2007 10:04:06 PM · #36
I live in a... (I guess an US. citizen would call it socialist country) and I remember when the U.S. Minister of Health visited us, and one of the things he said was (paraphrasing) "Don't ever take up the same health care system we use. Ever".
Everybody should have access to a health care, money should not matter. I like to tell my self that we live in a civilized society that every person life is just as valuable as any other. Your bank account should not matter.
06/23/2007 10:09:15 PM · #37
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

not a generalization. at the time my son was born (not sure about now) but babies born as early as him (24 weeks) and as small as him (453 grams) were not considered viable to save.

Elvis, the most premature baby in the world was born in Ottawa eighteen years ago at twenty-one weeks old, and survived. I really don't know where you got your information from, but it's completely wrong.
06/23/2007 10:24:46 PM · #38
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

not a generalization. at the time my son was born (not sure about now) but babies born as early as him (24 weeks) and as small as him (453 grams) were not considered viable to save.

Elvis, the most premature baby in the world was born in Ottawa eighteen years ago at twenty-one weeks old, and survived. I really don't know where you got your information from, but it's completely wrong.


he also weighed 50% more than Odin. It is not just age but weight as well.
06/23/2007 10:25:44 PM · #39
follow the link, watch the video.
Worth your time and probably not what you expect!!

//www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/

"Access to waiting list is not access to health care."
Beverly McLachlan, Chief Justice, Supreme Court of Canada
06/23/2007 10:32:13 PM · #40
honestly i put off the doctor so much that a wait list for non-emergency stuff wouldn't bother me.
06/23/2007 10:43:55 PM · #41
I've found info confirming babies smaller and younger than my son being given medical care in Canada. Everyone has a story and a statistic to share with you in hard times. and it's hard to know which are true, I remember confirming it with our doctors but that doesn't mean much. What else I've read though makes it seem as though facilities with the capabilities of handling such a situation are more plentiful here consequently resulting in a higher survival rate. I know I had to be transferred to a diferent hospital for his birth because if he had been born at the first hospital they couldn't handle it. but If they nearest childrens hospital was 60 miles further away than it was we'd both probably be dead right now. Again I don't know how factual that is. the things I've read are just rants from random people online. which hold as much weight as rants from random people in person. lol. but one person was even saying after a serious eye injury she had to wait 9 days for a CAT scan because there was only five CAT scan machines in the country(i think. may have meant city)As opposed to some hospitals in the states having 5 in just one buillding resulting in faster care, and therefore more ability to repair the damage before it's too late. I don't personally have a big issue with either country's health care, they are what they are. no ones perfect and no system is perfect we all do the best we can with what we have. I was jsut trying to suss out the situation. which is really impossible.
06/23/2007 10:49:33 PM · #42
There are three truths: my truth, your truth, and the truth.

I'm sure i read that somewhere and would probably place it among buddhist teachings or at least some oriental philosopher, i think we all need to realise this when viewing anything like this and taking sides.
06/23/2007 10:58:15 PM · #43
I don't understand how this turned into a spat between Americans and Canadians. I love Canada; it's our biggest state! ;-)

Seriously, though, if Canada has a better health care system, good for them. Ours has some very strong points (e.g., some of the best doctors and medical research scientists in the world) and some very weak points (e.g. HMOs that decide what you need instead of your doctor). And, before you bash the major pharmaceutical companies, consider the amazing medications they have invented (like Viagra!). Expensive? Well, profit is what keeps companies in business and leads to further effective research.

As for the post that knocked the U.S. military health care system -- It's what I've used my entire life (dad was military and now so am I) and, although I've heard complaints, it's always done right by me.
06/23/2007 11:11:33 PM · #44
Originally posted by gzupruk:

follow the link, watch the video.
Worth your time and probably not what you expect!!

//www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/

"Access to waiting list is not access to health care."
Beverly McLachlan, Chief Justice, Supreme Court of Canada

Wow, a film with an agenda, who'd have thought. And another film about Canadian health care made by Americans! Couldn't be biased.

As stated in my earlier post, "wait times" is an issue referring to particular kinds of procedures, not generalized health care, emergencies, broken limbs, appendectomies, etc. And it's an issue on the radar of all the political parties because it's an issue that Canadians are concerned with. Forgive me if it seems naive, but those kinds of issues get solved. Wait times are already improved since two elections ago, so the film is already outdated.
06/23/2007 11:44:42 PM · #45
Michael Moore is an idiot. Anyone who thinks that his movies are the truth needs to have their head examined!

I live in post Katrina New Orleans and have been to the hospital and/or doctors at least a dozen times in the last 2 1/2 years. Not only do I get good care and service but the 10 - 20 "undocumented" Mexican workers that are there each time I go are getting the same great care as I am.

This American says F**K Michale Moore - that lying bastard. I bet his fat ass won't go to a Cuban hospital when he as a heart attack!

Kenny
06/23/2007 11:47:26 PM · #46
Thank god for Kudzu ! Thanks for helping me keep my brains from boiling! I'm glad you have sense enough and found some "rebute" for Michale Moore's crap!

Thanks Kudzu.

Originally posted by kudzu:

anyway... back on topic...

canadian press reaction to sicko :
//www.imdb.com/news/sb/2007-05-21/#2

pictures of what the rest of cuban clincs are like :
//www.gentiuno.com/articulo.asp?articulo=2167

as always, there's two sides to every story. taking micheal moore's "documentaries" at face value is like trust jim jones not to spike your drink. you'd be better off getting your own glass...

06/23/2007 11:48:49 PM · #47
Are you NUTS! Are you that easy to fool?

Originally posted by hsolakidis:

I just finished watching it... Wow...

Why do you Americans stand for this?

Go ahead and download it... Mr Moore certainly doesn't mind....

Harry

06/23/2007 11:52:19 PM · #48
Originally posted by kenskid:


This American says F**K Michale Moore - that lying bastard. I bet his fat ass won't go to a Cuban hospital when he as a heart attack!


Let's hope he does and soon.
06/24/2007 12:11:22 AM · #49
Funny, nearly all the critics are calling "Sicko" Moore's most balanced movie. I haven't seen it yet, though much of what Moore's critics dislike about him has reportedly been softened in this movie.

Moore's a social critic and a rabble rouser. There was a lot of Fahrenheit 911 that I thought was rude and arrogant, but there was a lot of reporting of facts and events that weren't getting reported elsewhere.

As someone above said, the U.S. healthcare system has good points and bad points, and pointing out the bad points is of course not the whole picture, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be pointed out.

As for seeing a Michael Moore movie and leaving it thinking one has the whole picture, I agree that would be a mistake. It would sort of be like watching only Fox News and thinking you were informed.

06/24/2007 12:21:18 AM · #50
Originally posted by kenskid:

This American says F**K Michale Moore - that lying bastard. I bet his fat ass won't go to a Cuban hospital when he as a heart attack!
Kenny


Do you think Dr. Linda Peeno is lying when she testifies in front of congress about her role in denying health care to patients in need of medical service when she worked as medical reviewer for HMOs?
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