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06/23/2007 08:27:55 AM · #1
I just finished watching it... Wow...

Why do you Americans stand for this?

Go ahead and download it... Mr Moore certainly doesn't mind....

Harry
06/23/2007 08:36:59 AM · #2
Originally posted by hsolakidis:



Why do you Americans stand for this?

Harry


Because Paris Hilton, Angelina Jolie or feuds between Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump are so much more interesting to think about than silly, little Health care issues.

I'm not a Micheal Moore fan but I like the fact that he was pro Napster.
06/23/2007 08:40:02 AM · #3
Can't wait to see it!
06/23/2007 09:25:47 AM · #4
Originally posted by pawdrix:

[quote=hsolakidis]

I'm not a Micheal Moore fan but I like the fact that he was pro Napster.


It's funny.

The truth is always shocking, and welcome.

The people that reveal the facts behind the truth are always disliked.


06/23/2007 09:46:17 AM · #5
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

[quote=hsolakidis]

I'm not a Micheal Moore fan but I like the fact that he was pro Napster.


It's funny.

The truth is always shocking, and welcome.

The people that reveal the facts behind the truth are always disliked.


Well said.
06/23/2007 10:01:14 AM · #6
Originally posted by hsolakidis:

Why do you Americans stand for this?


Because we are all really stupid. Every single one of the 302+ million of us. D-U-M Dumb.

Plus, if we weren't so dumb, who would non-americans get a kick out of teasing?

Hey, I didn't watch the movie...but I will definitely not deem something from Moore (or any One person) as "the truth". Take it with a grain of salt, acknowledge his "spin", absord the elements that make sense, discount those that don't, and try to find your own truth.

But believing, wholesale, that one person's (profit-driven) opinion is "truth" might just be as dumb as being totally apathetic.

And let non-americans poke fun. It seems to be a cute little international pastime. If that makes those individuals feel righteous, than have at it.

(This post was typed by a non-american friend of mine...since I can't read, write, type, think, talk, or breathe)

[Why do I feel like I have a fishhook in my mouth and I just got reeled in...?]
06/23/2007 10:27:07 AM · #7
Originally posted by hsolakidis:



Why do you Americans stand for this?


Maybe the same reason you guys stand for bad teeth?
06/23/2007 10:59:56 AM · #8
Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by hsolakidis:



Why do you Americans stand for this?


Maybe the same reason you guys stand for bad teeth?


or maybe the same reason they're willing to stand in line a month to get a free cast when they break their leg?

there's got to be a reason people with money in canada drive south of the border when they have a serious health issue. and why canadian journalists at the premier of this film gave him an ear full about what the canadian health care system is really like...

sure. watch the movie. then go read some of his detractors...

only then will you begin to see the full truth in it all...

eta: moving to rants in 3... 2... 1...

Message edited by author 2007-06-23 11:00:51.
06/23/2007 11:08:57 AM · #9
Originally posted by kudzu:

there's got to be a reason people with money in canada drive south of the border when they have a serious health issue. and why canadian journalists at the premier of this film gave him an ear full about what the canadian health care system is really like...

I'm not a fan of the "what's with you Americans" line of discussion when talking about differences and I find it patronizing and insulting, but I wouldn't trade our Canadian health care system for what's down south for any kind of money. It isn't perfect, but by god, we're trying (despite the efforts of our current conservative federal government). The issue you mention about going south for treatment is one of waiting times, an issue raised in the last two elections which have resulted in minority governments (i.e., nothing will be done until the boobs on Parliament Hill stop politicking).

edit to add: and I don't know what country you're referring to, but wait times in Canada refer to specialized treatment, such as knee replacement surgery or MRI scanning, not broken limbs, appendix or tonsil removal, life threatening emergencies, or the like... treatment for all of which is free and immediate.

Message edited by author 2007-06-23 11:31:59.
06/23/2007 11:11:22 AM · #10
Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by hsolakidis:



Why do you Americans stand for this?


Maybe the same reason you guys stand for bad teeth?


541654.jpg
Oh, behave Baby!

I agree that Michael Moore has no true interest in the truth but I do think that Americans are getting dumber by the minute.

Pre 9/11 we seemed to have no interest in the rest of the world and our front pages were completely covered with nonsense. Then it was OJ now it's Paris. We seem to be right back in step. Sad, sad, sad...
06/23/2007 11:29:22 AM · #11
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Originally posted by hsolakidis:



Why do you Americans stand for this?


Maybe the same reason you guys stand for bad teeth?


541654.jpg
Oh, behave Baby!

I agree that Michael Moore has no true interest in the truth but I do think that Americans are getting dumber by the minute.

Pre 9/11 we seemed to have no interest in the rest of the world and our front pages were completely covered with nonsense. Then it was OJ now it's Paris. We seem to be right back in step. Sad, sad, sad...


I'm not really either way on Michael Moore. I pretty much agree with the premise of every "documentary" he has done; however, he has an innate ability to stretch truths to attempt to make his point. Therefore, my skepticism makes it hard for me to take everything in. I do trust that he is doing something he believes in rather than just getting his name in the limelight.

You're spot on with the interests of the majority of us. My mother in law was here for three weeks and the television stayed on Extra, Access Hollywood and that friggin idiot Nancy Grace. Speaking of which, who the hell can watch that overdramatic moron?

I think we need to change a lot of things about ourselves and our country. I don't think, "why do you Americans stand for this" is a good way to start though. Especially since this guy has done this in here before.
06/23/2007 11:32:08 AM · #12
Originally posted by kudzu:

there's got to be a reason people with money in canada drive south of the border when they have a serious health issue. and why canadian journalists at the premier of this film gave him an ear full about what the canadian health care system is really like...


It is true that some richer Canadians elect to queue-jump and drive down to Buffalo or Detroit to have their MRIs or CT scans but all the rest of us can still get ours in a reasonable amount of time, and for free. And it's also true that the example in 'Sicko' of no wait times in a Windsor-area ER aren't typical; I work in one of the largest hospitals in Canada and you're usually going to wait 4-8 hours for treatment of non-life threatening illness, that's for sure.

So yes, the Canadian health care system is by no means perfect, but by most objective studies offers better care than our American neighbours, and costs less. Our health care expense is something like 10% of GDP; America's is 16% (see here). This includes all the costs that go into health care, regardless of who pays (government, insurance or self).

And one can't argue that it's because we Canadians are richer, on a per capita basis, because America's per-capita GDP is something like $US 44,000 versus $US 36,000 for us (CIA Factbook).

So we Canadians are poorer and we pay less for health care and we get more.

True, our countries aren't the same but this disparity certainly warrants some serious thought.
06/23/2007 12:16:45 PM · #13
Originally posted by dudephil:



You're spot on with the interests of the majority of us. My mother in law was here for three weeks and the television stayed on Extra, Access Hollywood ...


That stuff makes me ill. Put's me in a deep funk knowing that people watch the crap but keep in mind EVERY country has their very own version of drivel.

As for America Bashing...most people could wake up and smell their own feet. Stupidity is everywhere, by the bus load.

all for now

Message edited by author 2007-06-23 12:22:24.
06/23/2007 12:43:04 PM · #14
I've seen the movie, and while it certainly carries its own bias, I feel the basic idea of the movie is fairly factual. And while Moore is nowhere near perfect (who is really??), he appears to be the only one willing to tackle these subjects. And creating public awareness is a good thing. Gets people talking (like this). The fact that he is one of the few documentary filmmakers who can get his films into theaters and actually get to show up is powerful in itself (Fahrenheit 911 was #1 at the box office for a period). He has the ability reach people, and I feel he's using the ability for a good cause.
06/23/2007 12:51:41 PM · #15
Cool, let me go download that right away and burn it to DVD. I need a new coaster, as my drink is leaving a ring on my desk.
06/23/2007 01:02:03 PM · #16
I hope that drink isn't alcoholic... I 'd take care of my liver with healthcare like that.... :)
06/23/2007 01:05:45 PM · #17
Originally posted by mattmac:



Plus, if we weren't so dumb, who would non-americans get a kick out of teasing?


If it makes you feel better I'd poke fun at you no matter where you were from.

hugs and kisses,

P
06/23/2007 02:38:35 PM · #18
Originally posted by Pedro:

Originally posted by mattmac:



Plus, if we weren't so dumb, who would non-americans get a kick out of teasing?


If it makes you feel better I'd poke fun at you no matter where you were from.

hugs and kisses,

P

Thank goodness. That does make me feel better.
Except for the 'hugs and kisses' part. I don't know if I'm ready for your 'awkward-hip-to-hip-man-hug' that you are famous for. At least not until you buy me dinner.
06/23/2007 02:54:02 PM · #19
Originally posted by cmeier:

Originally posted by kudzu:

there's got to be a reason people with money in canada drive south of the border when they have a serious health issue. and why canadian journalists at the premier of this film gave him an ear full about what the canadian health care system is really like...


It is true that some richer Canadians elect to queue-jump and drive down to Buffalo or Detroit to have their MRIs or CT scans but all the rest of us can still get ours in a reasonable amount of time, and for free. And it's also true that the example in 'Sicko' of no wait times in a Windsor-area ER aren't typical; I work in one of the largest hospitals in Canada and you're usually going to wait 4-8 hours for treatment of non-life threatening illness, that's for sure.

So yes, the Canadian health care system is by no means perfect, but by most objective studies offers better care than our American neighbours, and costs less. Our health care expense is something like 10% of GDP; America's is 16% (see here). This includes all the costs that go into health care, regardless of who pays (government, insurance or self).

And one can't argue that it's because we Canadians are richer, on a per capita basis, because America's per-capita GDP is something like $US 44,000 versus $US 36,000 for us (CIA Factbook).

So we Canadians are poorer and we pay less for health care and we get more.

True, our countries aren't the same but this disparity certainly warrants some serious thought.


Many Americans think socialized medicine is the answer, but after living in an American version of such (the military health care system), I can say it is not the end-all be-all. you gotta remember somewhere out there is the worst doctor in the country...and in this system, they are allowed to operate the same as the best. and as the consumer, you deal with it or wait 6-8 months for a second opinion, hoping to get a better doctor (luck of the draw.). Perhaps I am just disgruntled because this system tried to kill my infant son throught negligence and apathy, or because my husband who was injured in Iraq is still waiting for adequate treatment after over a year. just my humble Opinion.
I am not degrading any other countries system, just don't think America's ready for it.

Message edited by author 2007-06-23 14:55:41.
06/23/2007 03:36:44 PM · #20
Originally posted by mattmac:

Originally posted by hsolakidis:

Why do you Americans stand for this?


Because we are all really stupid. Every single one of the 302+ million of us. D-U-M Dumb.

Plus, if we weren't so dumb, who would non-americans get a kick out of teasing?

Hey, I didn't watch the movie...but I will definitely not deem something from Moore (or any One person) as "the truth". Take it with a grain of salt, acknowledge his "spin", absord the elements that make sense, discount those that don't, and try to find your own truth.

But believing, wholesale, that one person's (profit-driven) opinion is "truth" might just be as dumb as being totally apathetic.

And let non-americans poke fun. It seems to be a cute little international pastime. If that makes those individuals feel righteous, than have at it.

(This post was typed by a non-american friend of mine...since I can't read, write, type, think, talk, or breathe)

[Why do I feel like I have a fishhook in my mouth and I just got reeled in...?]


That's not dramatic at all. I'm tired of this "poor us americans getting made fun of all the time" like we don't have our own stereotypes about every other country. Look at how we talk about the Mexicans, those in the Middle East, etc... but when it gets turned around on us... ohhh nooo. MORAL OUTRAGE! Give me a break. We are a very powerful, rich country with a LOT of problems, some issues we are dealing with way worse than other countries of comprable wealth, even with less wealth and yet we wonder why people don't get it? We get so offended if its called into question why we do nothing? It SHOULD be called into question!
06/23/2007 03:42:49 PM · #21
See if you can catch him on this week's Wait Wait Don't Tell Me news quiz/game show on NPR -- regardless of whether you agree with his opinions, he's very funny.

One of the major pharmaceutical companies (Pfizer, I think) distributed a "hotline" number for employees to call in case Moore showed up.

He posted the number on his own website -- somehow people got the idea that it would be fun to call the hotline and whisper "He's here!"
06/23/2007 04:15:16 PM · #22
Originally posted by escapetooz:

I'm tired of this "poor us americans getting made fun of all the time"

Who's complaining? I think if it makes people feel better about themselves, have at it!!

Originally posted by escapetooz:

like we don't have our own stereotypes about every other country. Look at how we talk about the Mexicans, those in the Middle East, etc...

Do tell...since I'm an American, how do I talk about "the Mexicans", and "those in the Middle East"?

Originally posted by escapetooz:

but when it gets turned around on us... ohhh nooo. MORAL OUTRAGE! Give me a break.

No moral outrage here. But I'll still give you a break.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

We are a very powerful, rich country with a LOT of problems,

I agree.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

some issues we are dealing with way worse than other countries of comprable wealth, even with less wealth

Just for fun, I'll kinda agree with you...but I don't have any case studies, metrics, or hard examples to back your statement. Maybe if I thought about it longer, I could come up with one...but I'm a just a big dummy.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

and yet we wonder why people don't get it?

What people? Americans? If so, I'd say a lot of people do get it. Probably tens of millions of people get it. Then again, I'm sure a lot of people don't get it, too. We are talking about a populace that has less than a 50% voter turnout when electing the President here. The collective apathy can be astounding.

Originally posted by escapetooz:


We get so offended if its called into question why we do nothing? It SHOULD be called into question!

I'm not offended...are you?

I'm not at all fond of sweeping generalizations...about anybody. I guess that's what fueled my initial post.

Yes, America has problems. Yes, those problems should be addressed and brought to the attention of the masses. I have no problem with that.

I don't have a problem with people making fun of Americans and never did I mention anything about feeling sorry for Americans. How others feel is totally out of my control, so I just let it go (or respond in a post) :-)
06/23/2007 06:17:37 PM · #23
see this kid
523760.jpg

isn't he cute. he is a healthy very smart young man. he is 4 and can read pretty well. I didn't teach him he just kinda learned it. so he is pretty smart for his age. he is very funny and the best kid. If I lived in Canada he would be DEAD. I am not trying to be over-dramatic just factual. If we lived in Canada when he was born he would be dead.

this is him when he was 3 weeks old
326092.jpg

he was born too premature to be considered viable in Canada. to be fair if we were poor here he would be dead too, but we had good insurance and they saved my boy. his first hospital bill was $975,000. it cost me $100.

My daughter has type 1 diabetes and it costs us allot. We spent several thousand dollars last year on medical expenses alone but it was worth every penny knowing that my boy was running around looking in a mirror calling himself "awesome!"

Sure we have tons of problems with health care but i don't want a system that lets kids die to save money.
06/23/2007 06:39:39 PM · #24
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

... i don't want a system that lets kids die to save money.

Exactly Mr. Moore's point, as verified by ...
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

... to be fair if we were poor here he would be dead too, but we had good insurance and they saved my boy. his first hospital bill was $975,000. it cost me $100.

The health care industry in the US ranks shareholder profits as more important than the health of the populace.
06/23/2007 07:11:18 PM · #25
Originally posted by hsolakidis:

I hope that drink isn't alcoholic... I 'd take care of my liver with healthcare like that.... :)


I know enough people that work in health care, that it's not a problem :-)
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