First time in site history � WARNING: graph/debate

Canon EF 24-70 2.8L II

06/22/2007 06:57:52 PM · #76

Originally posted by routerguy666:

With a few exceptions, it seems to confirm that more entries in a challenge = less votes cast. When # of entries is at or below 250 or so, there is a higher # of votes cast in relation.

I think you're reading it funny. There are many, many cases on both of those graphs where the number of votes went up significantly when there were more entries. In fact, only the last three data points on the open graph differ from that trend.

Look at the data for two neighboring points: 190 entries, 41K votes. 360 entries, 125K votes.

So, double the entries.. three times as many votes.

06/22/2007 06:58:26 PM · #77

Originally posted by routerguy666:

With a few exceptions, it seems to confirm that more entries in a challenge = less votes cast. When # of entries is at or below 250 or so, there is a higher # of votes cast in relation.

Umm, no. What it definitely says is that recently, there have been a relatively large number of entries per challenge, and although voting has *increased* the increase has not been as large as the increase in entries. Therefore, the number of votes per entry (like the data that Scott presented) is lower.
Whether this is a temporary or permanent effect, and whether due to DPL or something else entirely, the jury is still out.
In the end, though, I find it hard to consider it a *bad* thing when the number of entries climbs the way it has, and voting increases as well. There is absolutely no evidence that there are not enough votes to ensure meaningful results; far from it.

SDW

Tamron AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF for Canon

06/22/2007 07:00:27 PM · #78

Maybe I did not explain myself and graph in my opening thread well enough. When I said "The polynomial averages between entries and votes have a large gap with entries going higher and votes lower. Have we got to the point that the site needs to do something to get the averages closer to each other? If so, what?", I should of said is

"The polynomial averages between entries and votes have a large gap with entries going higher and average votes received per entry lower. Have we got to the point that the site needs to do something to get the averages closer to each other? If so, what?"

No matter how you say or graph it, the results are the same. When entries continue to increase and the votes do not, the gap increases. If the votes per entry does not increase in relation to the entries then votes per challenge entry will continue to go down.

That was the point I was trying to state. Is the site at a point when it should look at evolving to accommodate increase popularity and entries. I do not find that an unjustified question to ask. Nor do I find it unjustified for DPC to review. Do I feel there needs to be a change? That's not up to me to decided but as a paid member I have the right to ask such questions. And as members and user all of you have the right to respond. Let's keep this civil.

Thanks

Message edited by author 2007-06-22 19:02:59.

Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS

06/22/2007 07:03:41 PM · #79

Originally posted by fencekicker:

It would probably be helpful to hear from people who used to vote, but haven't for a month or more. Why have they stopped voting?

I haven't voted in a long time because I used to use my lunch break at work to do it, but can no longer do so. I don't have much time at home after hours to vote, and frankly, the past few months have allowed for very few moments that I've even felt like doing anything, much less vote on challenges with umpteen zillion pictures in them. I vote when I enter, but I haven't entered much lately (for the same reasons stated above).

As someone who has been around over three years, I can say honestly that when I was new and had a lot of energy and excitement about learning and competing, I voted and commented all the time. Now that the new has more than worn off, so to speak, I am less motivated to participate in the challenges, comment, or even vote on them simply because there isn't that excitement factor like there used to be. That is just me, though, so I can't speak for anyone else.

wsl

Nikon D80

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

06/22/2007 07:12:32 PM · #80

Except for 3 challenges, the # of entries scale was above the total vote scale. Now I know that even with fewer avg votes per submission meaningful results can be gotten, thats not in question, but every other challenge over 250 had a large margin of lower votes. Would adding 1 more exclusive challenge per week spread the entries out and thus even out the voting?

Phil

Canon EOS-7D

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

06/22/2007 07:14:32 PM · #81

Maybe I just don't get it but what is the big woop about getting more votes - especially from people who obviously don't want to take the time to do so?

fotomann_forever

06/22/2007 07:20:07 PM · #82

Originally posted by dudephil:

Maybe I just don't get it but what is the big woop about getting more votes - especially from people who obviously don't want to take the time to do so?

Because the trend seems to be taking a crash dive. If it keeps it up this place could get as bad as fotofight or it could be self-limiting. I guess we shall see.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

06/22/2007 07:22:41 PM · #83

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

With a few exceptions, it seems to confirm that more entries in a challenge = less votes cast. When # of entries is at or below 250 or so, there is a higher # of votes cast in relation.

Umm, no.

edit: deleting my own ill-conceived attempt at pissing into the wind.

Message edited by author 2007-06-22 19:25:31.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

06/22/2007 07:26:18 PM · #84

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by dudephil:
Maybe I just don't get it but what is the big woop about getting more votes - especially from people who obviously don't want to take the time to do so?

Because the trend seems to be taking a crash dive. If it keeps it up this place could get as bad as fotofight or it could be self-limiting. I guess we shall see.

One more time:
- Trying to fit a polynomial trend to this data is asking for trouble.
- The actual number of votes cast each week has *increased* rather significantly.
- The number of images submitted has increased even more, thus the number of votes per image is, in some cases, less. No brainer.

The impact of the above is little or nothing. I really doubt that the increase in submissions is permanent, and if it is, at that point the site will need to figure out how to respond.
Voting trend is healthy, with many voters responding to the increased number of entries by voting more.
While Scott is correct that any/all real trends that affect the site should be monitored, at this point, I don't *personally* see anything in the data that is cause for considering change. Let's have this discussion again after another DPL season or two.

wsl

Nikon D80

06/22/2007 07:37:41 PM · #85

Well of course the total # of votes has increased because the submissions have increased. We're growing. The graph i'd really like to see is Avg # of votes per image during this whole duration. Because thats the issue. Even if people only voted the minimum 20%, you'd still see an increase in votes because there's an increase in entries. The problem people are seeing is lower scores which combined with lower votes could be because each vote causes more variation in your score.

Phil

Canon EOS-7D

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

06/22/2007 07:39:48 PM · #86

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Because the trend seems to be taking a crash dive. If it keeps it up this place could get as bad as fotofight or it could be self-limiting. I guess we shall see.

Shit Leroy. Fotofight's last completed challenge had 144 total votes avreaging 18 votes per entry. DPC's last challenge had 43,000 votes averaging 143 votes per entry.

Anyway, didn't you say only couple of days ago that you don't vote anymore?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

06/22/2007 07:54:34 PM · #87

Originally posted by wsl:

Well of course the total # of votes has increased because the submissions have increased. We're growing.

An increase in total votes is not at all a given, though I would have expected it, and the data do confirm it. FWIW, from a membership perspective, we are not currently growing. We're on a remarkably even keel, neither growing nor shrinking.

Originally posted by wsl:

The graph i'd really like to see is Avg # of votes per image during this whole duration. Because thats the issue. Even if people only voted the minimum 20%, you'd still see an increase in votes because there's an increase in entries.

Look at the original post. Ignore the polynomial trend lines. Votes per image is half of what he's plotting.
Bottom line, when the number of submissions is very high, there tends to be somewhat fewer votes per image.

Originally posted by wsl:

The problem people are seeing is lower scores which combined with lower votes could be because each vote causes more variation in your score.

You've only been here a very short while. A few years ago, it was not unusual to only get 100 or so votes on an image. That's plenty for ensuring that one vote doesn't skew the average unduly, and we also have measures in place to monitor voting for misbehavior.

fotomann_forever

06/22/2007 07:56:40 PM · #88

Originally posted by dudephil:

Anyway, didn't you say only couple of days ago that you don't vote anymore?

Nope, I don't. For many reasons, but the top one is there are just too many entries in each challenge.

wsl

Nikon D80

06/22/2007 08:32:40 PM · #89

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by wsl:
Well of course the total # of votes has increased because the submissions have increased. We're growing.

An increase in total votes is not at all a given, though I would have expected it, and the data do confirm it. FWIW, from a membership perspective, we are not currently growing. We're on a remarkably even keel, neither growing nor shrinking.

Originally posted by wsl:
The graph i'd really like to see is Avg # of votes per image during this whole duration. Because thats the issue. Even if people only voted the minimum 20%, you'd still see an increase in votes because there's an increase in entries.

Look at the original post. Ignore the polynomial trend lines. Votes per image is half of what he's plotting.
Bottom line, when the number of submissions is very high, there tends to be somewhat fewer votes per image.

Originally posted by wsl:
The problem people are seeing is lower scores which combined with lower votes could be because each vote causes more variation in your score.

You've only been here a very short while. A few years ago, it was not unusual to only get 100 or so votes on an image. That's plenty for ensuring that one vote doesn't skew the average unduly, and we also have measures in place to monitor voting for misbehavior.

On a paying membership level, we may be keeping level, but registered users aren't growing? They can still submit and vote.

When the submissions are high, there are lower votes per image. Thats one of the things many people have pointed out. Having to vote on 300+ images in a challenge becomes harder for some and voting is going to be lower because you end up with alot of similiar images, and when you have alot of similiar images, the scores will tend to drop.

Maybe i'll put together a graph of avg score on challenges with sub 250 entries vs challenges with above 250 entries and maybe that will show what i'm trying to convey better.

And yes i'm relatively new, but the forums go back awhile. If I should stay out of the discussion, just say so, but I think its the responsibility of every member,paying or not, to make sure we discuss things that could be better or done differently, even if its only that, a discussion and nothing comes of it.

Phil

Canon EOS-7D

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

06/22/2007 08:33:12 PM · #90

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Originally posted by dudephil:

Anyway, didn't you say only couple of days ago that you don't vote anymore?

Nope, I don't. For many reasons, but the top one is there are just too many entries in each challenge.

Just don't have the time?

chimericvisions

Canon EF 24-70 2.8L II

06/22/2007 08:41:35 PM · #91

Originally posted by wsl:

Maybe i'll put together a graph of avg score on challenges with sub 250 entries vs challenges with above 250 entries and maybe that will show what i'm trying to convey better.

That's been done, and it's been covered many times as being representative of jack squat. Scores are based on personal tastes, the challenge subject, number of similar entries, quality of entries submitted...

There is no empirical data to gather by comparing the scores of one challenge vs. the scores of another.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Nikon

06/22/2007 09:11:57 PM · #92

Originally posted by wsl:

Maybe i'll put together a graph of avg score on challenges with sub 250 entries vs challenges with above 250 entries and maybe that will show what i'm trying to convey better.

I'm also sure that it would show what you intend... that when the number of entries is large, the number of votes per entry is (somewhat) smaller.

If I should stay out of the discussion, just say so, but I think its the responsibility of every member,paying or not, to make sure we discuss things that could be better or done differently, even if its only that, a discussion and nothing comes of it. [/quote]

Nope, just saying that you may not have the historical perspective... which is, in and of itself, neither a good nor bad thing.

Apple iPhone

06/22/2007 09:36:09 PM · #93

it is still my opinion that if you enter... you should be required to vote at least 20%, if you dont vote... you cant enter, if youi dont vote on the challenge time frame you are entered in ... you get dqed... that would get people who are entering and not voting out of the voters hair..

chimericvisions