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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Should "behavioral disorder" be a legit excuse?
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06/18/2007 11:10:34 AM · #51
You do risk getting a hostile response...but it's up to you if it's worth it or not. I once yelled at a client's kid cause she was beating her pony for no damn good reason. The mom laughed, thought it was cute. Now little precious is turning into mommy. And this kid certainly doesn't have any mental disorders, she's just a brat.

Wait til that happens with this mommy.

Everyone, read The Three-Martini Playdate. Short book, funny and oh so true. Kids these days do get away with *^$*#Y murder and I'm sick of them acting entitled and getting away with it, never taking responsibility. Wait til the REAL world sinks its unforgiving teeth into them.
06/18/2007 11:35:08 AM · #52
Originally posted by pcody:

Society is funny when people consider a little compassion shown to someone as a reward and not normal human interaction. In my original post I was laying out a plan to help Phil, the baby and the child.
1. Stop the unwanted behavior.
2. Talk about the unwanted behavior.
3. Let eveyone leave with a positive experience.
4. Show, by example, that people care.


To the child, attention is a reward.

So, you would reinforce the notion that negative behavior gets rewarded with positive attention?

What about when this child is an adult? Would you show them hugs and kisses after they beat an old lady with a baseball bat? That's an extreme example, but the pattern (positive reinforcement of negative behavior) is the same. It's obvious that the OP tried to move away and remove his baby from the situation and address it in a less hostile manner at first, but when that didn't work, he took it to a new level.

06/18/2007 11:40:00 AM · #53
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

A belt to the ass took care of most of my behavioral disorders when I was a kid.


Amen. Today they get Ridolin or something instead. This is the problem.
06/18/2007 11:57:01 AM · #54
Originally posted by NstiG8tr:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

A belt to the ass took care of most of my behavioral disorders when I was a kid.


Amen. Today they get Ridolin or something instead. This is the problem.


Know what? My daughters are well-behaved and polite. I've never spanked them once. I disagree that beating kids is the right answer.
06/18/2007 12:04:19 PM · #55
Originally posted by levyj413:

Know what? My daughters are well-behaved and polite. I've never spanked them once. I disagree that beating kids is the right answer.


it's not always the right answer. but it's not always the wrong one, either...

each kid is different. period. they act differently and respond differently to punishments/rewards...

i'm happy your daughters don't need spankings. wanna trade one from my boy? you know... just for the weekend? ;)
06/18/2007 12:07:39 PM · #56
There's a huge difference between spanking and beating, IMO.

My son does not respond to spanking. (spanking in this house is usually a *pop* to the backside with our hand (sometimes two pops), not hard enough to hurt, physically). He never has. He just gets a defiant look in his eye and goes on. The behavior never changed. Time outs work well for him simply because he hates to be "isolated" from us. Taking away his dvds and and PSP2 works well too. :)

My daughter, OTOH, at two responds very well to "spanking." Of course, for her, I can touch her leg and say "spank spank" and she is heartbroken. From that point, I simply have to say, "Do you want a spank spank?" and she self-corrects.

My children are also very well behaved, especially to be 5 and 2. One method we used for both of them one Sunday was to make them go to the pastor and apologize for their behavior in church (it was one of those Sundays where they absolutely could NOT be still. They were quiet, but not still). My son (5) was mortified. That has been a couple of months and they are still behaving during the main service. (And no, they aren't scared of the preacher, now. They are both very fond of him).

anyway, different methods work for different children. and sometimes under different circumstances.

Honestly, in my opinion, nothing the OP did, or could have done would have made a difference. If the child was truly BD, a stranger saying something would have bounced off like a rubber ball on a concrete wall. It takes consistent and vigilant discipline for them, from the parent/primary caregiver/teacher. Strangers rarely have an effect. AND, if the child knew that the parent would "defend" them, regardless, a stranger's action would have little or no effect, anyway.

Message edited by author 2007-06-18 12:09:01.
06/18/2007 12:14:50 PM · #57
I'm completely with Pccody on this one. I have two kids and know that this is by far the most effective way to deal with a situation like this. The only thing I would add is to tell the child how his splashing is affecting you and your child and to make sure he knows that this is unacceptable. Then just tell him if he can stop that negative behavior, you'd be glad to include him in what you're doing.

This is a positive reinforcement of him correcting his own behavior and models a good way for his mother to deal with this problem in the future, if she's capable of that. If he refuses to cooperate, remove your child from the situation and let any nearby supervisors/authority figures know about the problem so that you can focus solely on taking care of your child.
06/18/2007 12:18:41 PM · #58
Originally posted by PhilipDyer:

I'm completely with Pccody on this one. I have two kids and know that this is by far the most effective way to deal with a situation like this. The only thing I would add is to tell the child how his splashing is affecting you and your child and to make sure he knows that this is unacceptable. Then just tell him if he can stop that negative behavior, you'd be glad to include him in what you're doing.

This is a positive reinforcement of him correcting his own behavior and models a good way for his mother to deal with this problem in the future, if she's capable of that. If he refuses to cooperate, remove your child from the situation and let any nearby supervisors/authority figures know about the problem so that you can focus solely on taking care of your child.


The point that seems to be missing is that if the child has been identified as BD, there usually is a reason for it, and that reason it that for whatever reason, things that would work for most kids, don't work for them. Are your kids labeled "BD?" If not, that is why an fairly unobtrusive method works. Granted, offering to kick his butt may not have been the right thing to do, but "reasoning" with him would not have worked. It would have simply reinforced that when he does something, he gets a reaction from it, and a negative reaction is better than no reaction.

Message edited by author 2007-06-18 12:19:17.
06/18/2007 12:19:45 PM · #59
Originally posted by karmat:

There's a huge difference between spanking and beating, IMO.


Agreed. I was responding to a few people suggesting that "a belt to the ass" is the solution. That sounds to me like a beating, as opposed to a quick pop on the butt or a tap on the leg accompanied by a disapproving look (which I love the idea of, actually).

I don't mean to imply my kids never misbehave, BTW. Just that physical punishments haven't been necessary. Timeouts, taking away privileges, rewarding good behavior (don't forget that!), etc. have been effective.

I liked what you and kudzu said about there not being one answer for every kid in every situation. That would be my response, too, to the various folks in this thread who think hitting kids is the only proper way to discipline them.

Message edited by author 2007-06-18 12:20:40.
06/18/2007 12:42:57 PM · #60
Discipline was fully needed in this situation no matter where it came from. Like the tv show the Super Nanny with that lady from England or something, the kid needed to be taken out of the pool, made to stand out of the pool for a period of time after being told what he did wrong. If he jumped back in the pool or started moving from the spot, get him and put him right back in it until he stays there for the whole time. Basically you are breaking him down so that he knows there is no other way to get back in the pool than stop doing the wrong behavior.

The mother has to do this most likely. Parents get defensive towards other parents or people when they talk about their kids and this is wrong. Then when they don't know how to control them they take them to a doctor to get doped up on some drug, when they have all of society to teach their kids how to behave. I would love for my kid to learn from everyone he interacted with. There are certain circumstances where the other parent or person might do the wrong thing to teach the child, as there are circumstances in everything, but once they talk to Mom and Dad about what happened you can give them your wisdom on how to handle it next time if it happens again.

I am not a parent but if I was;

Would I get out and leave the pool?
Would I try to get the kid to stop?
Complain to the mother about her kid?
Yell at the kid and make a threatening statement?
Yell at the mother and make a threatening statement?
Couldn't put my baby down and splash the kid?

Or a combination of these possibilities?

Whatever the case it happened while it was in the NOW at the time, but now it is in the past and stored in memory in the mind. Acting in the NOW with the right responses and not with reactions is the way to go. Reactions are what make all the difference in handling situations. Responses are given thought before any action is taken. When you know something is wrong you have the opportunity to respond or to react. You can watch yourself do this as it happens but most people just let it happen and that is when things keep going down hill. Choose to respond. We are talking here about the past to gain understanding and try to apply it to the future and I think we will all gain a little more understanding of the right responses to use by reading all of these entries. Good Chat, Bad Kid.
06/18/2007 01:50:38 PM · #61
I was at a baseball game and two kids behind us were throwing things at people below. I politely asked them to stop twice. The third time I said if I see one more thing get thrown I'm going to come up there and make sure nothing else gets thrown. At that point mom and dad sitting next to them got mad and asked me not to threaten their kids!
06/18/2007 01:57:44 PM · #62
Sounds like the making of an up and comming Rap artist.
06/18/2007 02:08:31 PM · #63
Originally posted by Man_Called_Horse:

Sounds like the making of an up and comming Rap artist.


Kinda like Will Smith huh? He's a big ol thug.
06/18/2007 02:10:44 PM · #64
Originally posted by levyj413:

I liked what you and kudzu said about there not being one answer for every kid in every situation. That would be my response, too, to the various folks in this thread who think hitting kids is the only proper way to discipline them.


Agreed, a swat on the fanny can work and sometimes not. My boys (and their mom) loved their long hair. But mom couldn't get the point, so now both boys look so clean cut and conservative now.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/669/thumb/498724.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/669/thumb/498724.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' his first hair cut for being a bad boy. About 8 inches now in a scrapbook for each boy.

I didn't recognize them when I returned from Minnesota. :)

Message edited by author 2007-06-18 14:11:17.
06/18/2007 02:15:17 PM · #65
Originally posted by dudephil:



1. Was I out of line and if so, why was the parent and/or kid not?

2. Should we, as a society, accept a "behavioral disorder" to be a legitimate excuse to allow someone to act this way. This wasn't a loud kid in a restaurant, or smart assed child in a supermarket. This was a youngster who was determined to do harm to a one year old child.


In my point of view you weren't out of line cause the mom sounds like a moron using the childs disability as an excuse for pore parenting. Although there are mental disabilities in children that cause them to do the opposite of what there told I had to council a kid like this at a camp. all that you must do is stop there actions early and ask them firmly to stop what they are doing and if they don't simply ask there gaurdian to assest you. If that dosen't work be the bigger man and walk away in the end its the attention there ater.
06/18/2007 02:43:55 PM · #66
Originally posted by LoudDog:

I was at a baseball game and two kids behind us were throwing things at people below. I politely asked them to stop twice. The third time I said if I see one more thing get thrown I'm going to come up there and make sure nothing else gets thrown. At that point mom and dad sitting next to them got mad and asked me not to threaten their kids!

The third time you should go get security and say "those people right there have been throwing things." End of your part in the matter and end of their baseball-observing experience.

If you say "I'm going to come up there and make sure nothing else gets thrown ..." is legally assault, and they'd (unfortunately) be within their rights to get security and try to have you removed ...
06/18/2007 03:16:05 PM · #67
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

A belt to the ass took care of most of my behavioral disorders when I was a kid.


HERE HERE!!!!!
06/18/2007 03:30:22 PM · #68
I've had the "foot in the ass disorder" several times as a kid.
06/18/2007 03:33:44 PM · #69
Personally I think you had every right to defend your child against inexcusable aggressive behavior. The fact that you attempted to distance yourself from the child before confronting him and his mother was about all that can be expected in a situation like that. The bottom line is the kid was trying to hurt your baby, and even if he genuinely has a behavioral disorder (which is due to a medical condition rather than poor parenting), that doesn't him a free ticket to abuse infants without consequence.
06/18/2007 03:52:38 PM · #70
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Sure, leave the baby unsupervised in the pool while dealing with someone else's problem child.

Just curious... do you have kids?

Dudephil, I think the kid was indeed acting aggressively and inexcusably, but I personally don't think you reacted well. Essentially in my view you met aggression with aggression. An adult meeting an aggressive kid with like aggression is wrong. The kid isn't a fully formed mature being yet, and whatever the reasons (and I don't count "behavioural disorder" among them), he is less responsible for his actions, in the sense that his parent is supposed to guide him. So his parent is responsible, and a better reaction would have been to reason with that person. That apparently not being possible, I would have left the scene and come back another time, or complain to a lifeguard.
06/18/2007 03:54:23 PM · #71
Where WAS the lifeguard during all this? They are ultimately responsible for anyone in the pool. If one person's behaviour is jeopardizing the safety of another person then that behaviour needs to be addressed.
06/18/2007 03:56:01 PM · #72
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

I was at a baseball game and two kids behind us were throwing things at people below. I politely asked them to stop twice. The third time I said if I see one more thing get thrown I'm going to come up there and make sure nothing else gets thrown. At that point mom and dad sitting next to them got mad and asked me not to threaten their kids!

The third time you should go get security and say "those people right there have been throwing things." End of your part in the matter and end of their baseball-observing experience.

If you say "I'm going to come up there and make sure nothing else gets thrown ..." is legally assault, and they'd (unfortunately) be within their rights to get security and try to have you removed ...


Unfortunately, prior experience with security in similar situations had led me to the following observation: If the security personnel do not actually witness said throwing of objects, then it didn't happen. The offenders will not throw anything while security is watching, security personnel will observe for some period of time, then go off somewhere else at which time the throwers will resume their obnoxious activity tenfold, directed at the party that contacted security in the first place.

This cycle will repeat until the end of the game or the complainer gets fed up and leaves the venue.
06/18/2007 04:06:12 PM · #73
That kid probably did have a behavioral disorder, but that gives him NO excuse to purposely act out of line. Especially around a baby. What if Brady had gotten a lungful of water and it wouldn't come out? You were most definitely not out of line. That woman was an irresponsible parent.
I have behavioral disorders, if some of you couldn't tell from my little episode a few months ago. The key to containing behavioral disorders from the parent's end of the spectrum is to calmly contain your child as much as you can when they act out of line.
I used to have a kicking problem when I was little. I used to kick my little foster sisters. When I did it, my mother would grab my arm and make me sit out for a few minutes. If I did it again, sometimes I'd get a loud scolding or a spanking, or sometimes she'd tell me I couldn't play with Anna and Samantha anymore if I couldn't play nice. I usually stopped. Kids with behavioral disorders generally don't listen to their parents warnings, but warning should still be given. If the child disobeys the warning, they should be punished just like any other child, but make sure that they understand exactly why they are being punished. If they repeat their offense, the intensity of the punishment should be increased accordingly. If the misbehaving continues, the child should be enrolled in an anger control class, like I am now.

The mother did one thing very wrong..

My mom did it before too.

I was at my grandma's when I was five and she had a tray of brownies on the counter. Before I even thought of them, my mom said "Don't touch the brownies, Joe." then I couldn't stop looking at them, and that was all I thought about.
When that woman said "Don't splash the baby." it probably tempted the kid.

You weren't out of line at all.. Especially if your child was in danger because of another child and that woman's irresponsible parenting.. I probably would've smacked the little bastard..
06/18/2007 04:12:45 PM · #74
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Sure, leave the baby unsupervised in the pool while dealing with someone else's problem child.

Just curious... do you have kids?

Dudephil, I think the kid was indeed acting aggressively and inexcusably, but I personally don't think you reacted well. Essentially in my view you met aggression with aggression. An adult meeting an aggressive kid with like aggression is wrong. The kid isn't a fully formed mature being yet, and whatever the reasons (and I don't count "behavioural disorder" among them), he is less responsible for his actions, in the sense that his parent is supposed to guide him. So his parent is responsible, and a better reaction would have been to reason with that person. That apparently not being possible, I would have left the scene and come back another time, or complain to a lifeguard.


Yes I do.

I would not condone the described behavior from my children, nor would I blame anyone who acted to prevent my child from acting that way. I don't have to worry about it, if my kids were splashing a baby that way, they would be out of the pool and headed home before they knew which end was up.

A 10 year old is more than old enough to know that splashing water on a baby in the manner described is wrong. If a 10 year old, or anyone for that matter, is terrorizing my infant child despite my admonitions and that child's parent is unwilling to intercede, I will.

The well being of that 10 year old pales in comparison to the well being of my infant. Direct action is not the first resort, but I won't rule it out.

People here are sooo concerned about the well being and tender mental state of the miscreant that they seem to ignore those same issues as they relate to the infant victim. What will the infant victim of such terrorizing feel and think, "Gee, Dad just let that big kid almost drown me, maybe he's more concerned about that stranger than he is about me."? Maybe the lesson those people will teach their own kids is that they can't count on Mom or Dad to take care of them.
06/18/2007 04:30:56 PM · #75
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Sure, leave the baby unsupervised in the pool while dealing with someone else's problem child.

Just curious... do you have kids?

Dudephil, I think the kid was indeed acting aggressively and inexcusably, but I personally don't think you reacted well. Essentially in my view you met aggression with aggression. An adult meeting an aggressive kid with like aggression is wrong. The kid isn't a fully formed mature being yet, and whatever the reasons (and I don't count "behavioural disorder" among them), he is less responsible for his actions, in the sense that his parent is supposed to guide him. So his parent is responsible, and a better reaction would have been to reason with that person. That apparently not being possible, I would have left the scene and come back another time, or complain to a lifeguard.


Yes I do.

I would not condone the described behavior from my children, nor would I blame anyone who acted to prevent my child from acting that way. I don't have to worry about it, if my kids were splashing a baby that way, they would be out of the pool and headed home before they knew which end was up.

A 10 year old is more than old enough to know that splashing water on a baby in the manner described is wrong. If a 10 year old, or anyone for that matter, is terrorizing my infant child despite my admonitions and that child's parent is unwilling to intercede, I will.

The well being of that 10 year old pales in comparison to the well being of my infant. Direct action is not the first resort, but I won't rule it out.

People here are sooo concerned about the well being and tender mental state of the miscreant that they seem to ignore those same issues as they relate to the infant victim. What will the infant victim of such terrorizing feel and think, "Gee, Dad just let that big kid almost drown me, maybe he's more concerned about that stranger than he is about me."? Maybe the lesson those people will teach their own kids is that they can't count on Mom or Dad to take care of them.


I agree completely. Not to mention an infant can't speak for himself. Atleast not in complete sentences. He's counting on his daddy to say "Hey! Knock it off! He's just a baby!" because he can't say it. Kids view their parents as their absolute protection. Kids generally think that their parents are invincible and can do anything. Especially at a very young age. That feeling decreases as the kid gets older, but trust me, I know.. When I was little, I used to think my dad could save me from anything, and when I was in distress and he DIDN'T save me from it, I got confused. I probably don't make alot of sense. What I'm getting at is that young children expect their parents to stick up for them nomatter what, and if they don't, they get confused. They question their parents' love for them sometimes. I know I did. Try to think about how that little baby must've felt. The ten year old, on the other hand, is probably going "I wonder how loud I can make that little runt scream." Who would you rather be sympathetic towards?
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