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06/17/2007 12:06:54 AM · #176
You have got to be kidding right?

So God is a prankster willing to damm anyone to hell that believes the Earth is older than 6000 yrs? Believe in a dinosaur and go hell?

I can't believe any God would be that "tricky".

Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:

Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.


Message edited by author 2007-06-17 00:14:05.
06/17/2007 12:13:21 AM · #177
Tell me...

It is well known that since we lowly humans created antibiotics, that some bacteria have changed over time and become "immune" to our medicine. This is a FACT. Bacteria that were once killed by a certian antibiotic, now has a "strain" that can live and multiply even if exposed to the antibiotic.

Now either some sort of "evolution" has taken place or God created a brand new bacteria in a "few years" that are drug resistant.

What do you believe?

06/17/2007 12:37:23 AM · #178
Originally posted by kenskid:

Tell me...

It is well known that since we lowly humans created antibiotics, that some bacteria have changed over time and become "immune" to our medicine.

Actually antibiotics are isolated by humans from natural sources, primarily molds and fungi. However that doesn't alter the fact that bacteria exposed to these substances can develop resistance/immunity to them, as well as to human-synthesized chemical agents such as the sulfonamides.

What's even worse (for us targets of these pathogens) is that this resistance has been shown to be "traded" between different species of bacteria.
06/17/2007 01:30:53 AM · #179
Originally posted by kenskid:

Tell me...

It is well known that since we lowly humans created antibiotics, that some bacteria have changed over time and become "immune" to our medicine. This is a FACT. Bacteria that were once killed by a certian antibiotic, now has a "strain" that can live and multiply even if exposed to the antibiotic.

Now either some sort of "evolution" has taken place or God created a brand new bacteria in a "few years" that are drug resistant.

What do you believe?


please go back and reread my posts explaining the difference between macro and micro evolution. that should answer your question...
06/17/2007 01:50:08 AM · #180
Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:

Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.


My friend, civilization itself is completely dependent on this "scientific evidence"

Discovering a fossil is no different than discovering fossil fuel (ever use that?).

In biblical times contracting the flu or other common illnesses was quite often a death sentence. Now thanks to "scientific evidence" medical treatment has advanced at a fantastic pace (ever have a loved one treated by medical science?).

If not for "scientific evidence" our ancestors (yes we are all African) would never have mastered fire or tools , and we would still be squating in caves eating dirt and inventing gods.

And as for where we end up, my advice to you is this; You will only get one chance at life, so make it count, because in the end it's lights out.
06/17/2007 01:51:27 AM · #181
I'm convinced Evolution exists since I am evolving myself out of this thread. BIG BANG!
06/17/2007 01:54:35 AM · #182
Originally posted by kenskid:

Tell me...

It is well known that since we lowly humans created antibiotics, that some bacteria have changed over time and become "immune" to our medicine. This is a FACT. Bacteria that were once killed by a certian antibiotic, now has a "strain" that can live and multiply even if exposed to the antibiotic.

Now either some sort of "evolution" has taken place or God created a brand new bacteria in a "few years" that are drug resistant.

What do you believe?


i think this whole thread is probably pointless... its not like we are all going to convince each other of the others belief...but i must say i dont see how building resistance is evolution...if i start drinking alcohol in small quantities and steadily increase it until i can hold quite a bit of liquor, does that mean i evolved or am i just a raging alcoholic?
06/17/2007 02:00:50 AM · #183
Originally posted by kenskid:

You have got to be kidding right?

So God is a prankster willing to damm anyone to hell that believes the Earth is older than 6000 yrs? Believe in a dinosaur and go hell?

I can't believe any God would be that "tricky".

Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:

Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.


He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, **** ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a sadist! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

:P Sorry your post reminded me of this.

Message edited by author 2007-06-17 02:01:32.
06/17/2007 02:10:35 AM · #184
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by kenskid:

You have got to be kidding right?

So God is a prankster willing to damm anyone to hell that believes the Earth is older than 6000 yrs? Believe in a dinosaur and go hell?

I can't believe any God would be that "tricky".

Originally posted by Beautiful-Joe:

Those of us who are faithful to God are completely aware that God placed this "scientific evidence" for the gullible non-believers to find. It is they who are the fools. Those of us who believe in God know better than to fall for that. It's a test of his faith, and it's one test I am NOT willing to fail. Argue with me if you like. I'll just sit here and giggle at you. We'll see who ends up where in the end.


He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, **** ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a sadist! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!

:P Sorry your post reminded me of this.


playing devil's advocate, are we???

lol

Message edited by author 2007-06-17 02:11:07.
06/17/2007 03:08:37 AM · #185
Originally posted by genghis:

And as for where we end up, my advice to you is this; You will only get one chance at life, so make it count, because in the end it's lights out.


Ghengis: You can't make it count. Nothing counts. We're nothing but bags of bones with some chemicals thrown in making some reactions that those chemical processes call thought or feelings or values or love which are random and meaningless and wholly without significance or inherent value. Face it, my friend (except that you're not my friend because frienship doesn't exist - only utilitarian alliances designed to increase our chances of procreating and preserving our genes), our existence is pointless and without value or meaning. We have no more inherent value than tumbleweeds or turds or snails. Even consciousness is an illusion. Our very existence is practically illusion -- unless there's a God to give actual life (not just chemical reactions); to define good and evil; to give meaning to our presence in the universe and the possibility of something beyond our physical existence.
06/17/2007 04:12:02 AM · #186
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:


and honour killings are a joke.. In a country where most women are in brothels because their parents sell them off..killings mostly happen because women happen to have rights to money that their parents, brothers, husbands can't touch.. money is always a factor in these kinds of murders....

remember between what a muslim does and a muslim should be there is widddddeeee gap.. ignorance is most rampant especially about their own religion..


Urfa: I'm not sure how the first part of your post related to what's been said about Islam and evolution. But, as for the second part, quoted above, which country are you speaking of? There are many majority Muslim countries in the world. Just off the top of my head, and to name only a few of them, I can think of Morocco, Mauritania, Senegal, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Indonesia. In which one of them are most women in brothels and sold off by their parents because of monetary rights? I don't know of a single one, and I've been to most of those I listed. In fact, here in Oman, I don't know of ANY brothels. But I do know where to find them in the United States.

"Money is ALWAYS a factor in ..." No. Sometimes. But honor killing has nothing to do with the subject and it's bad enough without introducing fallacies into it.

"Between what a Muslim does and what a Muslim should there is a wide gap." For some of them, like for some Christians and for some Jews and for some Budhists and for some lawyers and for some students and for some accountants, and for some policemen (you get the point), that is true. For others it is not.

The only reason I brought Islam into this was to point out that they are an example of roughly 20% of the world's population who, because of their culture and religion, find it nearly impossible to accept evolution. My purpose in that was simply to to make the point that you can't just write off the belief in creationism as idiotic if such a huge chunk of the world rejects it. That's all.


off topic again;

Okay, in my first post I was trying to put in sources to elucidate what the exact context of creationism is.. I'm not putting up any argument.. at all..

To the rest of stuff I added was in answer to some posts somewhere above mine and below yours.. I'm talking about the south asian part of the world and with experience from the child rights group I'm part of and well... this is where the relevance to the thread ends..

To ray:
Once again I shall repeat, I've been part of a nasty group of friends of which most liked to spray paint "F##@ off God F$#%ers" on people's cars. I've moved on from them. I don't believe in stereotypes or judging others but I'm obviously still hung up on the example they set.. I'm just as surprised by my second post actually.. that is all..

Message edited by author 2007-06-17 04:14:23.
06/17/2007 09:48:45 AM · #187
Originally posted by Mulder:

I'd just like to write a bit about the creation story in the Bible. I really think it is a very complex, intricate writing that many 'think' they understand. I have also seen in my life and in others that many people believe things because of what they have been told by others, not because of what they themselves have studied or read.

The biggest thing for me is that when people say the Earth was created by God in 6, 24 hour days, is the the Bible doesn't say this! From what I read, Genesis 1:1 says "In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," and goes on to explain then how God FILLED the earth and the heavens. From reading this, who knows how long the earth was around before God started to do anything with it? The bible doesn't say "on the first day, God created the earth.." No, on the first day, God created light... So to me, I can accept scientists telling me that there are rocks billions and billions of years old.

I am a solid believer in God and believe the Bible to be His absolute truth. I also can't deny what science tells me. I do not accept evolution as truth, as I believe God created humans the way we are today.


I guess I just started this thread because it seems no matter how religious you are, I just would shutter to think that people take allegorical stories of the bible literally.

Just tell me that you don't believe God Created the separate races as they are today. Tell me that you know that the bible is written by men, not supernatural tablets from beyond. Tell me you don't take it literally. Tell me that you don't believe that, for instance, all Chinese people can't go to heaven(or as good a heaven) unless they convert. Because, just c'mon!

And for Christ's sake, please don't say that Dinosaur bones are tricks placed there to test the faithful.
06/17/2007 10:04:30 AM · #188
Your "resistance" to alcohol is NOT the same as my example. Not even close. I'm talking about bacteria's "offspring" or future generations becoming immune over "time".

This change occurs because the strong bacteria survive the onslaught of the antibiotic and the weak die. The strong go on to produce more offspring than the weak. Whatever was present in the strong bacteria's genes that allowed it to fight the antibiotic is passed on to it's future generations. Now you have a totally new (stronger) bacteria to deal with. This is also how evolution works on the "grand" scale.

So back to my original post. What is it? Is my (Darwin's) example of evolution happening OR did God decide it was time for a "resistant" bacteria and just "pop" one down here one Sunday afternoon?

Originally posted by smardaz:

Originally posted by kenskid:

Tell me...

It is well known that since we lowly humans created antibiotics, that some bacteria have changed over time and become "immune" to our medicine. This is a FACT. Bacteria that were once killed by a certian antibiotic, now has a "strain" that can live and multiply even if exposed to the antibiotic.

Now either some sort of "evolution" has taken place or God created a brand new bacteria in a "few years" that are drug resistant.

What do you believe?


i think this whole thread is probably pointless... its not like we are all going to convince each other of the others belief...but i must say i dont see how building resistance is evolution...if i start drinking alcohol in small quantities and steadily increase it until i can hold quite a bit of liquor, does that mean i evolved or am i just a raging alcoholic?


Message edited by author 2007-06-17 10:39:24.
06/17/2007 10:21:31 AM · #189
Originally posted by genghis:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

How is it possible to look with open eyes at the immense and universal magnificence around us and not believe, at some fundamental level, that there is a mystery beyond anything we can directly experience that informs the essential glory of the Creation?

R.


It's very easy , if you free your mind of fear , and fundamentalist propaganda.

I dont live in fear of the boogie man , and I dont believe in ghosts, goblins, witches, warlocks, vampires, werewolves, bigfoot, dragons, unicorns, 700 year old ark builders, the tooth fairy, thor, leprchauns, mermaids, leviathan, behemoth, zombies, bleeding statues, santa claus, nessie, odin, allah, ganesh, gaia, jehovah , or any other childhood fantasy.

Once a person can accept the harsh reallity , that we are on our own , and must fend for ouselves in this universe , the rest comes easy.

But overcomming the fundamental fear of existance without purpose , is a tremendous challenge for those that have been "brainwashed" from birth.


Do you believe in tolls in DPC? If you do what is the differen between from Goblins!
God gave human beings free will to involve in the grand scence Science got involve to leave any planet to start all over again
06/17/2007 12:42:58 PM · #190
Someone once said that theology is like playing tennis without a net. That is, there's no real rules, no rational logic applied to both parties. Arguments from the scientific standpoint use the rules of logic and rational thought, arguments from religion don't.

Faith is not a rational argument, in fact quite the opposite. It's basically denying rational thought, that's why you need faith to believe what you do.

Anyone who's interested, I have a PDF copy of Dawkin's God Delusion. PM with your email addy.
06/17/2007 01:47:13 PM · #191
I found proof that God exists right here on the DPC. Here it is:' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/65886/thumb/418913.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/65886/thumb/418913.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

I also found proof that Satan exists. Here it is: ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/68166/thumb/437295.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/68166/thumb/437295.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

GAME - SET - MATCH!

Message edited by author 2007-06-17 13:47:42.
06/17/2007 10:47:13 PM · #192
Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:



To ray:
Once again I shall repeat, I've been part of a nasty group of friends of which most liked to spray paint "F##@ off God F$#%ers" on people's cars. I've moved on from them. I don't believe in stereotypes or judging others but I'm obviously still hung up on the example they set.. I'm just as surprised by my second post actually.. that is all..


I only thought I was confused before... NOW I know for certain that I am!

What pray tell does this have have to do with your initial comments on Atheism? I am trying here, but truly have no idea what the connection is ... Please enlighten me.

Ray
06/17/2007 10:58:46 PM · #193
Originally posted by OmanOtter:

... Finally, I'm not trying to convert you to anything. I'm simply sharing with you what I believe to be compelling implications of non-existence of God. These implications are not intended to convert you to belief in God.


I fear you have misunderstood my intent in this regard. Nowhere have I even suggested I am an Atheist... that is an assumption you made.

I happen to enjoy defending views that run counter to the established norm if only to have people understand that theirs is not the only way... that there do exist other viable options.

We can discuss semantics till the cows come home, the fact is I cannot agree to what you advocate in this comment, which seems to be the axis that you rest your argument on:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

unless there's a God to give actual life (not just chemical reactions); to define good and evil; to give meaning to our presence in the universe and the possibility of something beyond our physical existence.


We Sir have reached an impasse, and I think it best that we simply agree to disagree.

Ray

06/20/2007 03:36:57 PM · #194
Originally posted by RayEthier:


I happen to enjoy defending views that run counter to the established norm if only to have people understand that theirs is not the only way... that there do exist other viable options.
Ray


How pompous of you to presume to think that because I argued a position I think that mine is the only way! Read through my F'ing posts and I think you'll find that my views are anything but the established norm.
06/20/2007 03:52:45 PM · #195
So again this shows one thing ... the minority of non-believers try to control the majority of believers. AND where in the heck did the ridiculous term "intellignet design" come from? Again the non-belivers make the majority believers stop using the true term God's Creations. I do not believe in intelligent design but I do believe in the creations of God.
.This a a ridiculous forum for such discussions. Langdon ... why do you allow such controversial off the wall discussion rant here??
06/20/2007 04:01:02 PM · #196
Originally posted by blindjustice:

I am not trying to harass creationists, and certainly not trying to call people out or discriminate...

But is there really anyone out there that does not in their heart of hearts know that evolution is real? Even Intelligent design people- don't you just know its real? Ca't we all just admit it and get over the hump...

I mean, what are trilobites? Dinosaur bones? carbon dating? Hybrid species?

Science is in no way perfect, but is it more fun to have a world full of magic and sorcery, or the wonders of dinosaurs - reality, and planets that aren't flat?


Evolutionist and persons who believe in I.D. look at the same proof from differing perspectives. One sees a glorious maze of chance & coincidence... and perhaps the other sees order & intention.

Both are theories... you can not say one is fact until you first remove the other as an option and also witness the other as a reality. To date, it is all a matter of opinion supported by some pretty big brained scientists and doctors on both sides of the argument.

I think Scientology is pretty silly... but there are people who claim there really is something to it. If I'm right, then hooray for me... if I'm wrong, I doubt I'd care anyway.


06/20/2007 04:03:16 PM · #197
I'm really enjoying reading this "mostly" intelligent conversation. But I'm afraid it's all for naught.

Tonight when I sit down to eat my gloriously spicy pasta and meatballs, I shall lift up a prayer in thanks for the bounty granted me by
The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Ramen.
06/20/2007 04:09:41 PM · #198
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

So again this shows one thing ... the minority of non-believers try to control the majority of believers. AND where in the heck did the ridiculous term "intellignet design" come from? Again the non-belivers make the majority believers stop using the true term God's Creations. I do not believe in intelligent design but I do believe in the creations of God.
.This a a ridiculous forum for such discussions. Langdon ... why do you allow such controversial off the wall discussion rant here??


Uh, excuse me? This has been a very level, intelligent, and sometimes incredibly amusing, discussion for the most part. Imagine people being allowed to be open, honest and free to discuss things! Oh my. Can't have that.

Why does Langdon allow it? Because it's not doing anyone any harm. It's the responses like yours that are the ones that actually do the harm. So ask yourself, why does Langdon allow people like you to post something based on their belief that their beliefs make them superior?
If you don't like the discussion, leave it alone, put it on ignore, and enjoy your life.

Message edited by author 2007-06-20 16:10:46.
06/20/2007 04:14:26 PM · #199
Originally posted by shanelighter:

Someone once said that theology is like playing tennis without a net. That is, there's no real rules, no rational logic applied to both parties. Arguments from the scientific standpoint use the rules of logic and rational thought, arguments from religion don't.

Faith is not a rational argument, in fact quite the opposite. It's basically denying rational thought, that's why you need faith to believe what you do.

Anyone who's interested, I have a PDF copy of Dawkin's God Delusion. PM with your email addy.


I would have to disagree with you on one point. Faith is rational argument. You buy a car with seat belts and air bags because you have faith that in the event of an accident they will maximize your chances for surviving a collision. That faith is not based on a dream or a fictional bed time story you were told as a child. You don't believe those things because you simply want to believe them to be true. You have faith because there is history, facts, proofs and tests. Faith is buckling your seatbelt because you've seen that crash test dummy commercial by Volvo.

If you didn't have faith, if you wanted to go against rational and logical thought then you'd think like one of those people who doesn't buckle up because they feel it is safer for them to be thrown free from the vehicle even though there is overwhelming supporting evidence to show that the mortality rate is higher for those who follow such practices.

If you follow a religion that tells you you have to check your brain at the door, don't question anything, believe it "because I told you to", and refuse to use logic and reason in your understanding... then I'd have to agree that it is full of sh*t and you probably would be better off watching South Park.
06/20/2007 04:18:23 PM · #200
Originally posted by blindjustice:

Originally posted by Mulder:

I'd just like to write a bit about the creation story in the Bible. I really think it is a very complex, intricate writing that many 'think' they understand. I have also seen in my life and in others that many people believe things because of what they have been told by others, not because of what they themselves have studied or read.

The biggest thing for me is that when people say the Earth was created by God in 6, 24 hour days, is the the Bible doesn't say this! From what I read, Genesis 1:1 says "In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," and goes on to explain then how God FILLED the earth and the heavens. From reading this, who knows how long the earth was around before God started to do anything with it? The bible doesn't say "on the first day, God created the earth.." No, on the first day, God created light... So to me, I can accept scientists telling me that there are rocks billions and billions of years old.

I am a solid believer in God and believe the Bible to be His absolute truth. I also can't deny what science tells me. I do not accept evolution as truth, as I believe God created humans the way we are today.


I guess I just started this thread because it seems no matter how religious you are, I just would shutter to think that people take allegorical stories of the bible literally.

Just tell me that you don't believe God Created the separate races as they are today. Tell me that you know that the bible is written by men, not supernatural tablets from beyond. Tell me you don't take it literally. Tell me that you don't believe that, for instance, all Chinese people can't go to heaven(or as good a heaven) unless they convert. Because, just c'mon!

And for Christ's sake, please don't say that Dinosaur bones are tricks placed there to test the faithful.


Blind, somehow I get the feeling you've never actually read the Bible... or any other religious texts for that matter, from cover to cover.
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