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06/16/2007 02:52:10 PM · #126
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by OmanOtter:

If it is true that there is no God, then doesn't it follow that there is no such thing as good or evil? Because, without God (and therefore, without an immortal soul), good and evil are nothing more than artificial constructs created by man to serve man.


No. Whether created by man or God, they would still be created, and therefore artificial in either case. If, on the other hand, emotion and the sense of right or wrong were a development of evolution, then that would be natural. Personally, I would rather believe that achievements in THIS world for the betterment of our children and fellow humans, are what give us meaning and purpose. I find that much more fulfilling than damning the majority of the world's population simply because they don't share my beliefs.


Monkeys and other species have treated each other this way in the past, but its not them evolving to do it, so much as our knowledge of them evolving to understand what we see. Everyday you can read about "new discoveries" about wildlife behavior that have been there for who knows how long, and we just haven't understood it until now.

I believe what I believe at the core, but everyday I strive to learn more to have a better understanding. Even these debates are food for thought and they'll strengthen your views, give you more perspectives, and make you understand the "other side" more and it shows that we're not that far off from each other, and actually could learn alot from learning both sides. The answers might just lie somewhere inbetween.
06/16/2007 03:02:39 PM · #127
Evolution is an uphill process. Evolution does exist, but only when activated and spurred on. A mutation occurs everytime DNA loses information, this is why 96% of Chimp DNA is Human DNA.

Therefore, if mutations occur when information is lost, it's not the naturual evolutionary process that causes this since Evolution takes place when information is added to DNA.

The miners on the moon are mining for elements right now on behalf of the Designers in Antartica.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/31637/thumb/536672.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/31637/thumb/536672.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

This photo is where the Human Genome project is taking place in Antartica.
06/16/2007 03:06:37 PM · #128
Saying that a person has been "brainwashed" is certainly not meant as an attack, and I'm sorry that some think so.

I put the word in quotations , for lack of a better term to describe someone who had no choice in the selection of their faith.

Most young children are not offerd a list of possible religions , like a menu at Mcdonalds , they are pretty much stuck with whatever their parents were forced to accept as children themselves.

What parents are teaching their kids is their buisness , but what I dont like is the fundamentalist movement trying to shove their agenda down our throats. (creation in public school)

And if we are going to turn the U.S.A. into a theocracy can we at least include ALL faiths (vodoo , santeria , satanism)

Because one faith is just as valid as the next , since they all offer the exact same amount of proof.
06/16/2007 03:11:07 PM · #129
The Genome project is taking place on the moon.

//www.medscape.com/viewarticle/453650

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 15:14:16.
06/16/2007 03:11:41 PM · #130
Originally posted by genghis:

Saying that a person has been "brainwashed" is certainly not meant as an attack, and I'm sorry that some think so.

I put the word in quotations , for lack of a better term to describe someone who had no choice in the selection of their faith.

Most young children are not offerd a list of possible religions , like a menu at Mcdonalds , they are pretty much stuck with whatever their parents were forced to accept as children themselves.

What parents are teaching their kids is their buisness , but what I dont like is the fundamentalist movement trying to shove their agenda down our throats. (creation in public school)

And if we are going to turn the U.S.A. into a theocracy can we at least include ALL faiths (vodoo , santeria , satanism)

Because one faith is just as valid as the next , since they all offer the exact same amount of proof.


No, we are in the process of becoming a planetary conscousness where all think alike. "great minds think alike" only when ignorance is removed from the masses. Ignorance is why there is so much separation, and that is all but coming to an end. The Earth's electrical grid has shifted now, and soon we will all have the same beliefs.

The Raw materials evolve only. But life forms are designed. The raw materials are entirely natural which go through the evolutionary process. The designers take the newest raw material to make the new being. The last time this happened was 5000 years ago.
06/16/2007 03:14:21 PM · #131
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:


The Raw materials evolve only. But life forms are designed. The raw materials are entirely natural which go through the evolutionary process. The designers take the newest raw material to make the new being. The last time this happened was 5000 years ago.


What happened 5000 years ago?
06/16/2007 03:19:24 PM · #132
That was the last time the designers enhanced our race. They are in the process of changing us again. We are being configured to adapt to the new polar shifts taking place right now.
06/16/2007 03:24:24 PM · #133
//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=genomeprj&cmd=search&term=txid9606%5Borgn%5D

06/16/2007 03:26:21 PM · #134
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

That was the last time the designers enhanced our race. They are in the process of changing us again. We are being configured to adapt to the new polar shifts taking place right now.


Your pulling my leg , right?
06/16/2007 03:35:20 PM · #135
No, I'm not pulling your leg sir. We have overconsumed and we use technology for convenience only. The cost is a polluted planet.

Do you know why APPLE wins the "innovative award" every year? It's because APPLE suppresses technology in intervals. The IPOD is military junk, and so are our digital cameras. I have patents here for 3D holographic televisions from 1940. I also Microwave patents from 1920. WIFI was discovered, (nothing is invented) in 1914. They just have to sell more HDTV's first, and Toasters. The way to maximize profits from technology is to introduce it in Intervals and milk the consumers.

You have no idea how advanced they really are. We are sheep amongst shepards.
06/16/2007 03:44:26 PM · #136
Originally posted by genghis:

This thread is funny and sad , just like the fundamentalist movement.

Originally posted by kudzu:


i've always though quantum physics was the closest thing to a proof for God as you could get...


Actually, if a god were to manifest itself at the U.N. and proclaim supreme rulership of the universe (performing all the miracles necessary to convince the world) that would be real proof.

Then we could put this debate to bed.

Until then,
I'll just sit here and hold my breath , waiting for a god to offer up a single shread of evidence for the existance of anything supernatural in this universe , ANYTHING.


This day is coming soon. The designers are humanoid like us. Do you know "HUMAN" isn't our real name? We are being labeled by a tag that applies to many other inhabitants of other planets. The word Human is short of HUMANOID, which is the 5 point biped. The aliens on the moon and Mars are very much like us in appearance only, not spiritually.

We use 10% of our brain becaue it is suppressed. Why would we need the whole thing if we only use 10%? The human body hasn't changed in 100,000 years.

So why did we chuck spears for a million years and go from Revolvers to Particle Beam weapons in the past 100 ??? It's because our bodies are created to be upgraded without physical mutations. The consciousness evolves only. The last time this happened was 500 years ago, not 5000 as I mentioned above, that was a typing error. This was the exact time of the renaissance period. We are evolving now, but our bodies will look the same.

The might as well call people sheeple.

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 15:46:34.
06/16/2007 03:47:46 PM · #137
Wow.
06/16/2007 03:58:25 PM · #138
I'm right down in Jersey, you mind sharing some of what you're smoking? Please?
06/16/2007 04:07:59 PM · #139
i agree with jb... this has mostly been an interesting discussion. i may have to save the post by graphicfunk. i like the way he stated himself. i would have to agree...

it does, though, disturb me (and has for quite some time) that so many who reject what i believe tend so often to resort to name calling and question my ability to reason. as i see it, i can only react to what i know, applying occam's razor as judiciously as possible.

whether you may believe me or not, i feel there would be nothing without a creator. i believe that creator to be loving and just in equal measure. i believe God wants us to experience Him and works through creation to make that possible. i believe this was through self sacrifice. i believe the whole of history points towards Christ on the cross. i believe God wants us to know all of this and so uses his infinite power to protect his word from both time and man's lesser nature. i'm willing to believe God's word over man's word.

if these things make me a fundamentalist, then i reject the use of that word in the pejorative. i'll wear it proudly. but then, "christian" started out as a means of belittling those who followed "the way", ie Jesus.

do i know all of the answers? no. of course not. none of us do... am i willing to debate with honest people? sure... will any of this change what i believe? probably not, but i think it's worthwhile for reasonable people to discuss.

i have the following quote on my cube wall at work and i think it's apropos to the discussion :
Originally posted by Thomas Aquinas:

We must love them both, those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject. For both have labored in the search for truth and both have helped us in the finding of it.


just, for the love of pete, please don't assume everyone who believes different from you is an ignorant, brainwashed hick. it demeans you to even suggest it...

Originally posted by Thomas Aquinas:

"Some there are who presume so far on their wits that they think themselves capable of measuring the whole nature of things by their intellect, in that they esteem all things true which they see, and false which they see not. Accordingly, in order that man's mind might be freed from this presumption, and seek the truth humbly, it was necessary that certain things far surpassing his intellect should be proposed to man by God. "
06/16/2007 04:21:14 PM · #140
It has nothing to do with smoking. I was labled an Indigo by my doctor which means my biosphere glows Indigo. I also have Electromagnetic hypersensitivity. It's not only my heightened intuition which allows me to see things others cannot. I did recieve lots of information on the internet from some who claimed to be gov't operatives also.

I am not alone here, and it's why I speak so freely. Most psychics say the same things I am saying here, and it's because we believe it. Why do we beleive it? Because truth is proved from within. Too many coincidences and evidence leading to one thing, and then to another thing.

Most children being born today have these indigo auras and most parents think it's autism. Autism is on the rise today. I was labeled autistic also. But it's not a disease, it's just a person who operates on a different frequency than most. All autistic children have Indigo auras and possess boosted awareness.
06/16/2007 04:28:43 PM · #141
Cough when is this moving to the rant corner Cough :D

And now you've all done it.. there I was studying for my circuit analysis exam and now I'm rummaging through any religious books I can find for the precise muslim pov.. I've just posted this up for my own clarity's sake..

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"[21:30]

"And indeed, you have already known the first form of creation (i.e. the creation of Adam): then why do you not remember (or take heed)?"[56:62]

"And indeed We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and nothing of fatigue touched Us" [50:38]

"It is He, Who created you(Adam) from dust, then from Nutfah [mixed semen drops of male and female sexual discharge(i.e. Adam's offspring)] then from a clot (a piece of coagulated blood), then brings you forth as an infant, then (makes you grow) to reach the age of full strength, and afterwards to be old (men and women)-- though some among you die before -- and that you reach an appointed term in order that you may understand" [40:67]

all references are from the Quran..

off topic
on children
"Indeed lost are they who killed their children, foolishly, without knowledge, and have forbidden that which Allah has provided for them, inventing a lie against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and were not guided" [6:140]
people take this to be about contraceptives.. this actually comes after where female infanticide and is forbidden..

and honour killings are a joke.. In a country where most women are in brothels because their parents sell them off.. killings mostly happen because women happen to have rights to money that their parents, brothers, husbands can't touch.. money is always a factor in these kinds of murders....

remember between what a muslim does and a muslim should be there is widddddeeee gap.. ignorance is most rampant especially about their own religion..
06/16/2007 04:31:59 PM · #142
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

It has nothing to do with smoking. I was labled an Indigo by my doctor which means my biosphere glows Indigo. I also have Electromagnetic hypersensitivity. It's not only my heightened intuition which allows me to see things others cannot. I did recieve lots of information on the internet from some who claimed to be gov't operatives also.

I am not alone here, and it's why I speak so freely. Most psychics say the same things I am saying here, and it's because we believe it. Why do we beleive it? Because truth is proved from within. Too many coincidences and evidence leading to one thing, and then to another thing.

Most children being born today have these indigo auras and most parents think it's autism. Autism is on the rise today. I was labeled autistic also. But it's not a disease, it's just a person who operates on a different frequency than most. All autistic children have Indigo auras and possess boosted awareness.


I will probably get jumped on by SC for threadjacking again, but I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying. In 1994 there was a noted increase in psychic activity in 40+ year olds. Many of these people had been sceptical, hard nosed science believers who swore black was black and white was white. However, in 1994, a lot of these previously 'normal' people found themselves attracted to more spiritual matters, including psychic development. The matter of Autistic children has been noted also in the past two generations. Early autistic children, from late '70s were mildly affected, but this past generation has seen an increase. I have two grandchildren who have been diagnosed as autistic, one is 10, the other 5.
06/16/2007 04:41:59 PM · #143
In the beginning ... we created (will create) ourselves ... it is an experimental and closed loop ...
06/16/2007 04:46:55 PM · #144
What a christian is and what a christian does is just as wide a gap;

I think genghis put it best; free yourrself from the propoganda of organized religion, free from the fear of the "boogieman" type hell or the thought that the earth is only 5000 years old or of teh delusional rapture concept. Make the world a better place because its right, not because you'll go to hell if you don't.

Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:

Cough when is this moving to the rant corner Cough :D

And now you've all done it.. there I was studying for my circuit analysis exam and now I'm rummaging through any religious books I can find for the precise muslim pov.. I've just posted this up for my own clarity's sake..

"Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"[21:30]

"And indeed, you have already known the first form of creation (i.e. the creation of Adam): then why do you not remember (or take heed)?"[56:62]

"And indeed We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in six Days and nothing of fatigue touched Us" [50:38]

"It is He, Who created you(Adam) from dust, then from Nutfah [mixed semen drops of male and female sexual discharge(i.e. Adam's offspring)] then from a clot (a piece of coagulated blood), then brings you forth as an infant, then (makes you grow) to reach the age of full strength, and afterwards to be old (men and women)-- though some among you die before -- and that you reach an appointed term in order that you may understand" [40:67]

all references are from the Quran..

off topic
on children
"Indeed lost are they who killed their children, foolishly, without knowledge, and have forbidden that which Allah has provided for them, inventing a lie against Allah. They have indeed gone astray and were not guided" [6:140]
people take this to be about contraceptives.. this actually comes after where female infanticide and is forbidden..

and honour killings are a joke.. In a country where most women are in brothels because their parents sell them off.. killings mostly happen because women happen to have rights to money that their parents, brothers, husbands can't touch.. money is always a factor in these kinds of murders....

remember between what a muslim does and a muslim should be there is widddddeeee gap.. ignorance is most rampant especially about their own religion..
06/16/2007 04:50:34 PM · #145
Je pense, donc je suis.
06/16/2007 05:04:02 PM · #146
There are only TWO religions in the world as far as I am concerned ...

That which promotes the spreading of goodness and kindness and loving to all other peoples ...

... and that which does not ...

That is MY opinion ...
06/16/2007 05:06:01 PM · #147
Originally posted by Greetmir:

There are only TWO religions in the world as far as I am concerned ...

That which promotes the spreading of goodness and kindness and loving to all other peoples ...

... and that which does not ...

That is MY opinion ...


The thread wasn't about religion, but evolution.
06/16/2007 05:16:58 PM · #148
off topic!!!!

.... but unorganized religion and atheism is so boring... *pout* no challenge, no expectations, no need to strive for anything, no need to have a conscience... I tried atheism for one day [I was essentially the only person in my group of friends who was even remotely religious or straight for that matter and they egged me on].. not my cup of tea...

[I sound like such an ass... ]

Message edited by author 2007-06-16 17:20:10.
06/16/2007 05:43:49 PM · #149
Originally posted by UrfaTheGreat:

off topic!!!!

.... but unorganized religion and atheism is so boring... *pout* no challenge, no expectations, no need to strive for anything, no need to have a conscience... I tried atheism for one day [I was essentially the only person in my group of friends who was even remotely religious or straight for that matter and they egged me on].. not my cup of tea...

[I sound like such an ass... ]


I have pagan beliefs, I believe in a Creator of sorts, but I worship nature, the world that surrounds me. I trust in my ancestors, and respect them. I respect all things and take only what I need, and then I give back to Mother Earth. Am I a lost soul? Have I no need to strive to be a better person? I think not, I have no desires for material possessions. I do have a few examples of modern technology, but they give me comfort after a day at work. I can, however, live quite happily without the lastest, shinyest mobile phone/pda/laptop/car/tv/dvd.

You make your own path in life and follow it. Whether Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, Pagan or Atheist. Just be true to yourself.
06/16/2007 06:15:07 PM · #150
Ok. read through the entire thread twice and while there have been good points made there has also seemed to me be unnecessary arguments. Debating I'm all for but it will slowly turn into a mud slinging match if it continues in the current way.

Now I can only speak for myself and that is exactly what I will do.

I believe in Evolution as it offers the most reasonable answer to questions that I have pertaining the the source of life on this planet.While there are many holes in the theory there is much evidence to suggest that it is on the right tracks. This does not exist for any of the creation theories for any religion. It is not just the creation stories with which I have trouble going with. Religion as a whole is something that I cannot get behind. I have often queried within myself my actions in relation to religion and I have never found any answers to be helpful from religion.

To me Religion was created to answer things that early man did not understand. It provided us with an explanations to phenomenon that occurred for which we had no other explanation. Over time these religions evolved and changed to fit in with the changing world. There are things I believe such as there was some one known as Jesus Christ as it is covered in at least 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam (think he is also mentioned in Buddhism by siddhartha) and it has to more than just coincidence that the same man is mentioned so many times in so many religions. Other problems that I have is that these religions have absorbed and changed aspects of themselves so that they will be more readily accepted into a new culture by an invading force an example would be God his image taken from Jupiter when Romans converted, Jupiter was taken from the Greek Zeus when the Romans invaded to help the Greeks be "assimilated" (for lack of a better word) into the Roman culture. Other examples would be the adoption of pagan festivals as major holidays in Christianity.

It's aspects of religions such as those which consistently convince me that while they were important in developing civilisation that organised religion is not for me. I in no way mean to belittle any ones beliefs, as what concern of mine is it what someone else believes. If someone finds comfort and happiness from a religion then I am happy for them. As many of you have pointed out most people that are religious are very nice people I know many people from all religions and they are all good people I also know many atheists and they are equally good.

What I am against is when people take their beliefs and turn it into an us versus them case where it is no longer bringing them happiness but is only generating hate. While these cases are rare I feel that it is becoming more common as those with extreme views and beliefs are more visible than those that speak with a soft tone and reason. What concerns me is that if support for the extreme beliefs continue then there will be a continued grow in the anti-intellectual/scientific feeling that may well hinder progress towards equality that can only really be achieved through science.

May have strayed from my initial intention but I feel it seems to be relevant. So pretty much I don't believe in what religions teach and choose to believe in Humanity instead but with that, respect others views, I won't try and change anyone's beliefs but will listen to their point of view and only offer them my view
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