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DPChallenge Forums >> Web Site Suggestions >> Allow the burning of backgrounds in Advanced
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06/10/2007 06:44:56 PM · #1
I hope this is the right place to suggest changes to editing rules. If not, please feel free to move it.

I think this rule should be amended:

"You may not ... use ANY editing tool to move, remove or duplicate any element of your photograph that would change a typical viewer’s description of the photograph (aside from color or crop), even if the tool is otherwise legal, and regardless of whether you intended the change when the photograph was taken."

It is so very much part of the photographic tradition to burn away backgrounds. For example, I don't know what jjbeguin did to his original shot, but if he did burn away the background, why not let him? Or at the very least, allow for the removal of dark backgrounds with levels or curves. And yes, if you are willing to consider it, I could provide wording for this. I'm all about wording!

06/10/2007 06:46:43 PM · #2
Originally posted by posthumous:

It is so very much part of the photographic tradition to burn away backgrounds. For example, I don't know what jjbeguin did to his original shot, but if he did burn away the background, why not let him? Or at the very least, allow for the removal of dark backgrounds with levels or curves.


Looks like he did it through lighting... And you can in effect remove a 'dark background' with levels/curves as long as an average viewer describing the before shot doesn't comment on anything in the background...

Message edited by author 2007-06-10 18:49:18.
06/10/2007 06:54:24 PM · #3
Jj doesn't share his original, what if his background wasn't dark? What if it was windows and traffic outside, other customers, etc.?

Message edited by author 2007-06-10 18:55:36.
06/10/2007 07:01:39 PM · #4
Originally posted by idnic:

Jj doesn't share his original, what if his background wasn't dark? What if it was windows and traffic outside, other customers, etc.?

just because he doesn't share it with us doesn't mean he doesn't share it...he has shared with the SC ;-)
06/10/2007 07:36:42 PM · #5
.

Message edited by author 2007-06-11 22:49:40.
06/10/2007 07:45:01 PM · #6
I always shoot against a dark colored sheet and burn it out. Ive never been asked for validation, then again ive only done it a couple of times.

But i don't have anything black so i always use dark blue.
06/10/2007 07:48:42 PM · #7
Um.... helloooo...

Removing a background using Levels is even legal in Basic Editing... as long as it's applied to the entire photo.

If you want no background, just take a step to the left to get the dark, shady tree behind your subject, then Level it out. ;-)
06/10/2007 07:51:43 PM · #8
Originally posted by Strikeslip:


If you want no background, just take a step to the left to get the dark, shady tree behind your subject, then Level it out. ;-)


Exactly.
06/10/2007 08:38:24 PM · #9
Someone here who doesn't understand how to completely darken a background with the sliders on levels, curves, shadows, colors etc etc requested a submission I did that had a complete black background to be DQ'd. Well I screwed up another way not with the removal of colors from the background. Burn makes it easier but is absolutely not required to darken a background. A little more difficult in basic without selection tools but very easy in advanced already. Don't see the need to allow burn to remove color just like using too much dodge to make it white. Play with the sliders, you'll find that it is already possible.
06/10/2007 11:08:49 PM · #10
Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Removing a background using Levels is even legal in Basic Editing... as long as it's applied to the entire photo.


Nope. Not if you change the typical viewer's description of the photo. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
06/10/2007 11:12:58 PM · #11
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Removing a background using Levels is even legal in Basic Editing... as long as it's applied to the entire photo.


Nope. Not if you change the typical viewer's description of the photo. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.


I think you are, levels and color adjustments applied uniformly to the whole image are legal even if they change the viewer's description.
06/10/2007 11:15:46 PM · #12
That 'typical viewer's description' hyper-subjective rule is in the advanced rules, not basic.
06/10/2007 11:22:42 PM · #13
Originally posted by routerguy666:

That 'typical viewer's description' hyper-subjective rule is in the advanced rules, not basic.


Well there ya go.
06/10/2007 11:28:25 PM · #14
So where are all the SC's .. how about a ruling on this?
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Removing a background using Levels is even legal in Basic Editing... as long as it's applied to the entire photo.


Nope. Not if you change the typical viewer's description of the photo. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
06/11/2007 12:28:25 AM · #15
Originally posted by TechnoShroom:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

That 'typical viewer's description' hyper-subjective rule is in the advanced rules, not basic.


Well there ya go.


hello, I'm talking about the advanced ruleset... look at my title...
06/11/2007 12:29:18 AM · #16
Hello!
06/11/2007 12:29:48 AM · #17
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by TechnoShroom:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

That 'typical viewer's description' hyper-subjective rule is in the advanced rules, not basic.


Well there ya go.


hello, I'm talking about the advanced ruleset... look at my title...


Ok, well then, there ya don't go.
06/11/2007 12:31:47 AM · #18
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Hello!


You're so charming when you're friendly. hahaha
06/11/2007 12:32:43 AM · #19
I'm always friendly. What the f**k is your problem?
06/11/2007 09:56:22 AM · #20
Well I guess this question has been answered. I would like to see the original if JJ would share it.
06/11/2007 10:21:14 AM · #21
Sad to see the DQ, but it remains one of the most compelling, emotional, brilliant shots we've had here in a long while.
06/11/2007 10:47:13 AM · #22
winning image for double take (probably) burned the background, otherwise there wouldnt be that "straight" line across the blurred fur where levels/curves would have followed the contours of the darkness...

I think the key here is dont shoot something and then decide to "cut out" the car, tree and house in the background and put in a black background instead because you liked the natural lighting. It's probably along the lines of the other bit in the rules which mentions no adding or taking away of significant objects (so dust and imperfections are fine - but defineable objects in the background arent)

I'm not SC but i would assume that is what they mean with the current wording of the rules - and in which case i think they should stay - as burning a dark, undefined background to black clearly is legal in Advanced

With regard to jj's shot - i suppose the rule is there to stop people doing the abovementioned "cut out" of a background. Can you imagine the number of people who would submit poorly done masking (or, god forbid, painting) of a black background onto a portrait or other still life type shot as a cop out for a well thought through "studio style" shot??
06/11/2007 11:08:23 AM · #23
Sigh. IMO it is a bloody stupid rule.
06/11/2007 11:10:03 AM · #24
Originally posted by pineapple:

Sigh. IMO it is a bloody stupid rule.


ayup. and nothing to do with photography. I'd like SC to explain what's not photographic about jjbeguin's photo.
06/11/2007 11:17:37 AM · #25
i trust the SC's judgement ... and i agree with the rule set that is currently in place

I'm also sad for JJ ... In my opinion he's one of the best photographer's on this site - he has many more ribbons to come
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