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06/06/2007 01:25:03 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Belief and proof are not the same... and thank GOD for that, lest we all stand accused and convicted of all types of nefarious undertakings. |
You have hit the nail on the head. "Friend voting" is a 'crime' at DPC based entirely on an undefined criteria. |
Its just common sense ..
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 13:29:09. |
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06/06/2007 01:27:40 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by tooohip:
However, following that up with a higher vote, than you would give someone who photographed the same image whom you do not know or isn't your "friend" is just plain WRONG and against the rules! |
Tell me, please, where that is specifically forbidden in the rules.
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 13:28:12.
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06/06/2007 01:30:01 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Belief and proof are not the same... and thank GOD for that, lest we all stand accused and convicted of all types of nefarious undertakings. |
You have hit the nail on the head. "Friend voting" is a 'crime' at DPC based entirely on an undefined criteria. |
Considering your reply to my post, I think I now understand how it is that you have such a skewed perspective. As they said in the movie: "Read it again Sam" (sic)
Ray |
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06/06/2007 01:30:25 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by hopper:
so then how can you admit to doing something that you just explained has not been defined? |
I do it just like you in your voting.
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06/06/2007 01:31:31 PM · #80 |
I now have the sickest feeling in the pit of my stomach. Tell me Steve, what is the point in me entering challenges when I'm at a disadvantage already since we aren't "friends". I won't be able to get a fair score from you anymore and probably won't believe the scores you give me. You're credibility is not longer good with me. As with anyone else who votes the way you do. When I came to this site, it was fair, now its not. The photos don't count any longer and I'm seriously wondering if I should continue with the DPL or DPC. It truely breaks my heart because I really like this site and I have learned and grown from my experience here. Maybe I don't really matter to most, but DPC mattered to me. I have to really think what to do now.
Message edited by author 2007-06-06 13:33:16.
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06/06/2007 01:32:29 PM · #81 |
Steve
Okay, okay - I think I know understand your point. You want "friend voting" clearly laid out in black and white for all to see - with clearly laid out rules and no subjective language.
I think this is somewhat unreasonable. The rules sets for challenges in an of themselves have much room for interpretation. If you were to ask and get a fully defined list of rules, we would need a 30 page handout to enter a challenge.
The current rules for voting seem pretty clear to most of us.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Belief and proof are not the same... and thank GOD for that, lest we all stand accused and convicted of all types of nefarious undertakings. |
You have hit the nail on the head. "Friend voting" is a 'crime' at DPC based entirely on an undefined criteria. |
Considering your reply to my post, I think I now understand how it is that you have such a skewed perspective. As they said in the movie: "Read it again Sam" (sic)
Ray |
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06/06/2007 01:33:42 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Challenge results are based on votes intended to be an expression of our collective opinion of the artistic merit of the submissions. |
I agree.
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06/06/2007 01:36:22 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by pccjrose:
Okay, okay - I think I know understand your point. You want "friend voting" clearly laid out in black and white for all to see - with clearly laid out rules and no subjective language.
I think this is somewhat unreasonable. |
What? You think it is OK for you to get a ticket for speeding when not even told what the speed limit is? I think NOT!.
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06/06/2007 01:37:40 PM · #84 |
| Where can i find the literature to DPC Friends' Voting Rules? |
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06/06/2007 01:38:02 PM · #85 |
It strikes me that Steve may not actually be doing what he claims to be “confessing” to, but his real aim is to call into question the whole notion of friend voting based on what he sees as an ambiguous rule or its arbitrary application. He has, perhaps cleverly, refrained from describing any specific vote he gave, or unambiguously “admitting” that he voted one image high due to the identity of the photographer and another similar image low because he didn’t know who took it.
I will often bump a photo a notch or two for the creative concept and effort, even if not fully realized. By the same token, I may vote a technically excellent image of a tired or boring subject down a notch or two from where it might have ended up if the subject had been more engaging. The end result may be that both images end up with a 6, which is where they should be. With my vote, I’ve encouraged the creative photographer to continue exploring their muse, and the proficient photographer to find one.
The only thing different, perhaps, from what Steve describes is that I do this with ALL images I vote on, not just the ones submitted by my “friends.”
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06/06/2007 01:39:19 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by pccjrose:
Okay, okay - I think I know understand your point. You want "friend voting" clearly laid out in black and white for all to see - with clearly laid out rules and no subjective language.
I think this is somewhat unreasonable. |
What? You think it is OK for you to get a ticket for speeding when not even told what the speed limit is? I think NOT!. |
We dont have signs up in the UK telling people not to rape and murder people. I have never read the laws of this country, but commons sense tells me it is wrong and frowned upon by most people in the country.
Next thing you'll want "caution HOT" on the side of your coffee cup.
simple as. |
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06/06/2007 01:40:06 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by tooohip:
However, following that up with a higher vote, than you would give someone who photographed the same image whom you do not know or isn't your "friend" is just plain WRONG and against the rules! |
Tell me, please, where that is specifically forbidden in the rules. |
Shannon's posted that exerpt for you several times already, come on. |
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06/06/2007 01:40:28 PM · #88 |
No - I think the rule set (see bolded) says it pretty clearly. Bias means voting with intent to vote higher or lower based on specific knowledge or prejudice
You may not:
give an entry a lower score because you believe it violates the Challenge Rules.
recommend an entry for disqualification for not meeting the challenge.
vote on an entry based on its server-generated thumbnail.
vote on your own entry.
vote in a manner that suggests an intent to disrupt the voting system.
offer or cast biased votes for any other user.
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by pccjrose:
Okay, okay - I think I know understand your point. You want "friend voting" clearly laid out in black and white for all to see - with clearly laid out rules and no subjective language.
I think this is somewhat unreasonable. |
What? You think it is OK for you to get a ticket for speeding when not even told what the speed limit is? I think NOT!. |
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06/06/2007 01:43:42 PM · #89 |
Biased is biased. If you know the person "friend" and you bump the score up because of that "friendship", that's being biased. This is the reason why the entries don't have the username attached to it. What happened to common sense? What has happened fairness?
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06/06/2007 01:44:02 PM · #90 |
So, you post your "confession," knowing that the SC will look into it. If, indeed, we find that you are biasing your votes for one consistent user, you could possibly receive a suspension from voting, based on past precedence and "punishment."
How is that helping your mentee, now?
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06/06/2007 01:44:20 PM · #91 |
Just revise the rule with a couple of key strokes and resolve the problem.
"You may not... offer or cast biased votes, otherwise known as "friend voting", for any other user."
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06/06/2007 01:44:40 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by EstimatedEyes:
I will often bump a photo a notch or two for the creative concept and effort, even if not fully realized. By the same token, I may vote a technically excellent image of a tired or boring subject down a notch or two from where it might have ended up if the subject had been more engaging. The end result may be that both images end up with a 6, which is where they should be. With my vote, I’ve encouraged the creative photographer to continue exploring their muse, and the proficient photographer to find one.
The only thing different, perhaps, from what Steve describes is that I do this with ALL images I vote on, not just the ones submitted by my “friends.” |
Yep, me too. And I think this is even more true of those of us who've been here awhile. There are only so many of insert cliche shot of the month here that I can take in a row before I tire of them. I've also started skipping things in voting that I just don't like seeing over and over, technically proficient or not. As for "friend" voting, I don't vote on shots I've seen before a challenge. I do, however, recognize people and styles, and try to vote fairly on those images even though I have a very good idea who took them. |
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06/06/2007 01:45:58 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
I now have the sickest feeling in the pit of my stomach. Tell me Steve, what is the point in me entering challenges when I'm at a disadvantage already since we aren't "friends". I won't be able to get a fair score from you anymore and probably won't believe the scores you give me. You're credibility is not longer good with me. As with anyone else who votes the way you do. When I came to this site, it was fair, now its not. The photos don't count any longer and I'm seriously wondering if I should continue with the DPL or DPC. It truely breaks my heart because I really like this site and I have learned and grown from my experience here. Maybe I don't really matter to most, but DPC mattered to me. I have to really think what to do now. |
You can chose or not chose to enter challenges according to your own wants and needs. I can only advise, but not tell you what to do. I do that all the time. And I give my votes according to my own evaluations.
I'm sorry if my credibility no longer means anything to you. But I cannot let that change how I vote any more than I should tell you how you should vote yourself.
You have to make the choice whether you want to continue or not. I would be very sorry should you chose not to based on my comments, but that is YOUR choice and not mine.
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06/06/2007 01:48:31 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by karmat:
So, you post your "confession," knowing that the SC will look into it. If, indeed, we find that you are biasing your votes for one consistent user, you could possibly receive a suspension from voting, based on past precedence and "punishment."
How is that helping your mentee, now? |
Your response disappoints me greatly, but is not unexpected.
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06/06/2007 01:50:37 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by karmat:
So, you post your "confession," knowing that the SC will look into it. If, indeed, we find that you are biasing your votes for one consistent user, you could possibly receive a suspension from voting, based on past precedence and "punishment."
How is that helping your mentee, now? |
Your response disappoints me greatly, but is not unexpected. |
What did you expect? Many people got voting bans for friend voting. How did you think you would avoid the same punishment when you've publicly announced that you regularly do the same thing they were punished for doing? Do you think it was fair for them to be punished, but not you? How do you see a difference in their actions and yours?
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06/06/2007 01:51:06 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by karmat:
So, you post your "confession," knowing that the SC will look into it. If, indeed, we find that you are biasing your votes for one consistent user, you could possibly receive a suspension from voting, based on past precedence and "punishment."
How is that helping your mentee, now? |
Your response disappoints me greatly, but is not unexpected. |
Steve,
You are one of the most respected guys on this board (both from me and others). How in the heck do you want us to react.
"Oh look, Steve is friend voting. It doesn't matter that we have tried in desperation and frustration to get people to vote fairly, since he is doing it, it must be okay?"
I'm sorry. Your reaction to this rule, and the obvious, blatant disregard for it is unexpected, and extremely disappointing. |
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06/06/2007 01:52:58 PM · #97 |
| So steve, You are telling me that my work is not as good as your developing photographer friends. by voting them higher youa re in turn voting me lower. Please explain to me why work work is worth less to you (not by the quality of the work but by the knowledge of you) |
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06/06/2007 01:53:43 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by tooohip:
However, following that up with a higher vote, than you would give someone who photographed the same image whom you do not know or isn't your "friend" is just plain WRONG and against the rules! |
Tell me, please, where that is specifically forbidden in the rules. |
It's been pointed out already in this thread by the SC. You are sounding more and more like that child in the corner Artsye described. |
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06/06/2007 01:53:47 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by Buckeye_Fan:
I now have the sickest feeling in the pit of my stomach. Tell me Steve, what is the point in me entering challenges when I'm at a disadvantage already since we aren't "friends". I won't be able to get a fair score from you anymore and probably won't believe the scores you give me. You're credibility is not longer good with me. As with anyone else who votes the way you do. When I came to this site, it was fair, now its not. The photos don't count any longer and I'm seriously wondering if I should continue with the DPL or DPC. It truely breaks my heart because I really like this site and I have learned and grown from my experience here. Maybe I don't really matter to most, but DPC mattered to me. I have to really think what to do now. |
You can chose or not chose to enter challenges according to your own wants and needs. I can only advise, but not tell you what to do. I do that all the time. And I give my votes according to my own evaluations.
I'm sorry if my credibility no longer means anything to you. But I cannot let that change how I vote any more than I should tell you how you should vote yourself.
You have to make the choice whether you want to continue or not. I would be very sorry should you chose not to based on my comments, but that is YOUR choice and not mine. |
You're right it would be my decision but I vote fairly not with bias, not knowing who I am voting for. I vote on the merits of the photograph not the photographer! That, sir, is the difference between you and I. I follow the rules. If I can't get a fair shake at the challenges, then what is the point. Its seems to me, you'd have one more photographer that didn't contend with your "student" if I were to go.
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06/06/2007 01:54:20 PM · #100 |
Here's my take on this whole situation.
There is a rule in place that states "You may not offer or cast biased votes for any other user." It has been repeatedly stated in this thread as well as others (by Shannon, mainly) that the activity known in the forums as "Friend Voting" is a violation of this rule. It is abundantly clear to me that those that have been, and will be in the future, punished for "Friend Voting" are in reality being punished for casting biased votes for one or more other users. Obviously, the term "Friend Voting" is shorter and easier to use in the forums.
In this thread, Steve freely tells us that he has cast "Friend Votes", yet he apparently believes either that he did not cast biased votes for one or more users, or that it is OK to do so. It certainly sounds to me like Steve does not believe that he is breaking any rules, and, as he states in his original post, he doesn't plan to change his behavior.
I personally couldn't care less what Steve's motivations are behind his votes. If his allegations against himself are true, he is breaking the rules, period.
It is possible for an innocent man to proclaim himself guilty, so I request that Steve be investigated to determine whether or not he truly is casting biased votes for other users. It sounds like Karma has the same idea, so I am optimistic.
To Steve: Since you obviously believe that you are not doing anything wrong, I hope that you will cooperate fully in any investigation that may occur.
SC has demonstrated their ability to appropriately uphold the rules of this community in the past, and I look forward to this being the case in the future as well.
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