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05/25/2007 11:53:25 PM · #101 |
So just for the sake of arguement ... What do you mean forever? The norm for most peope is until convienance is interupted, or almost everyone else gets married until death do us part. So forever is a long time. Does it cross the line between live and death. Is there marriage forever? For those who believe in life after death, is there marriage or not after death or do people blindly believe it not so because some preacher with an earthly degree or training says mariage is an earth thing only. Forever sounds good to me although sometimes the next ten minutes of marriage seems too long to put up with ;) . Forever, can it be?
Originally posted by klstover:
Well this is a weird question for a photography forum.
I believe that marriage is forever, and that love takes work. If you understand where I'm coming from, then maybe you can explain some about how can you balance between "okay, this is way too much work in this relationship and we shouldn't get married" and "an acceptable level of work"? |
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05/25/2007 11:55:50 PM · #102 |
| I believe that marriage is until death. I love my wife and want to be with her forever, but death will do us part. |
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05/26/2007 12:18:29 AM · #103 |
I do so want to meet your wife. She must have a pioneer spirit, a grand sense of humor and a heart of gold. Bless her!
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05/26/2007 12:19:15 AM · #104 |
I'm going to try it all over again, This time I think I have it right...
07-07-07
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05/26/2007 12:25:06 AM · #105 |
Originally posted by wavelength:
Originally posted by pamelasue:
Originally posted by Efergoh:
Originally posted by frisca:
I don't know who is filling your head full of ideas, but I think its important for you to go out and experience the world before you start giving advice on what should and shouldn't be. |
Perhaps those ideas are her own. Or perhaps those are the values passed to her by her family. Either case, I don't think it is our duty tell her that she is right or wrong.
The best part about equality is that it is not mandatory...it is the opportunity for equality that is the goal. It is her life, her path to choose as she sees fit. It would seem that she would be equally happy tending to the home and rearing children as another woman would be pursuing a career. Neither path is wrong if both are happy. |
Since you're not a woman ... I don't think you can fully understand exactly what NightShy is saying ... furthermore, she is the one telling the rest of us that it's wrong for a woman to have a mind of her own, goals of her own and desires of her own ... |
She didn't say that. Nothing in her post denigrated women who choose to have goals, it only pointed out that some have treated the womens lib movment as free license to forget that their family needs them. I didn't take her rant as being Dr. Laura specific, but I could be wrong.
I find it disconcerting that a young woman expresses an opinion, and is immediately condescended by the older women. It's not the 50's anymore, we should start looking at new solutions, not begrudging the old problems. I think some in the younger generation are fed up with the baby boomers, and in some part genX with their rampant selfishness and lack of drawing any boundaries on their family behavior is all.
All I'm saying is, try to look at her side before judging her. |
Well said. I don't mean to drag the thread back here, but I feel the need to point out that I too did not see her post as an attack on anything, but just an alternate point of view that tends to be more "traditionalist" ("feminist", "traditionalist", now we're using buzzwords). There's nothing wrong with partners being equal in a marriage, and by all means, I think they should be! I know that personally, I want to marry an equal. If I want someone to lord over, I'll hire employees or have kids :-)
But what's wrong with a woman being a mom instead of having a business career? I watch my own mother and everything she does, and it has got to be harder than any "regular job" on the planet, with endless hours and no vacations, and yet that's the role she chose - she and my father made the decision together years ago.  NightShy didn't say it was wrong for a woman to have a mind of your own, she offered an alternative to where that freedom could lead, and just because it's a more "traditional" route doesn't mean it's outdated or still contains the inequalities of 1950.
And as  wavelength said, the whole Baby Boomer/genX thing hasn't gone so well, in general. So I applaude NightShy for speaking her mind, likely knowing it would be unpopular, and I am astounded by the harshness of the backlash.
And for anyone who thinks that just because kids/young adults don't have the decades of experience they do, and therefore cannot properly understand so-called "adult" issues, you've got another thing coming. Experiences define people, and you have no way to know just what a person's experiences might have been, even in a lifespan of "only" 20 years. We may be younger, but we often understand a lot more than you give us credit for.
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05/26/2007 12:29:19 AM · #106 |
i think the firecracker tube & lama makes the most sense //
though i better ask my wife first ... |
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05/26/2007 12:34:45 AM · #107 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
So just for the sake of argument ... What do you mean forever? The norm for most people is until conveniance is interrupted, or almost everyone else gets married until death do us part. So forever is a long time. Does it cross the line between live and death. Is there marriage forever? For those who believe in life after death, is there marriage or not after death or do people blindly believe it not so because some preacher with an earthly degree or training says marriage is an earth thing only. Forever sounds good to me although sometimes the next ten minutes of marriage seems too long to put up with ;) . Forever, can it be?
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Personally, I think that marriage can last forever... as in, beyond death. I think if you found a person you knew you wanted to be with, it would be sad to imagine it ending when you died. |
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05/26/2007 12:38:55 AM · #108 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
So I applaude NightShy for speaking her mind, likely knowing it would be unpopular, and I am astounded by the harshness of the backlash. |
Did you even read this thread? NightShy was attacking women who go out and earn a living, and the "backlash" was against that, not against women who stay at home and raise children.
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05/26/2007 12:48:30 AM · #109 |
NightShy .... well stated.
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No one can replace a mom, babysitters, day care, neighbors and friends are no match. Yes the want of the "me" generation to have everything and more than their parents have that took 30 years or more of growing and saving and get it immediately is a curse. I have nothing bad to say about living in comfort but to do it by farming out the kids to strangers .... well hope people that do it are happy. It's sad but also almost a joke, every week here there is a grieving mom on the news telling everyone that her teenage son or daughter was good and never got in trouble. Killed by rival gangs or drive by shootings. Yup they are great 16 year olds, school dropouts, a criminal record longer than your arm (oh, ya they were always innocent), 14 year old girls pregnant with her 2nd child. Yup they all had great parental example. Kinda like the "young man" just convicted of killing a store clerk, all caught in a very clear positive video camera. Cold blooded murder ... gun to the head and pulled the trigger. Yup, same story, before the trial his mom said he was a great kid, never in trouble. After conviction and prior to sentencing the mom story is that it was society fault because they didn't take care of him and give him a good example .... mom where were you??? Working?? Now with all this said, yes sometimes couples do have to work. That is sad but a reality, but do do it for "earthly treasures and sacrifice a good family relationship and example is real sad. Too bad, a failure. We all need headstones engraved with "Beloved Mom ... loved her kids by buying them new big screen TVs to watch while the parents were busy working"
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NightShy well said! |
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05/26/2007 12:49:57 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
So I applaude NightShy for speaking her mind, likely knowing it would be unpopular, and I am astounded by the harshness of the backlash. |
Did you even read this thread? NightShy was attacking women who go out and earn a living, and the "backlash" was against that, not against women who stay at home and raise children. |
Funny, I thought she was speaking against the movement, and the particular issues it has created and attitudes that it has fostered that she disagrees with. Again, I hardly think it's against any and all women who earn a living, but against the subset that has placed that living above everything else, and so sacrifices their family, etc, for it. And the backlash seemed more a knee-jerk reaction, resulting in her statement being taken in the general sense, and not in the specific.
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05/26/2007 12:53:54 AM · #111 |
Wow what a concept, if everything ends at death that would be a sad eternity wouldn't it. Our creator's (God) love is never ending, so why would he make our love for each other temporary, that would be a cruel joke ;)
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Originally posted by daboardergirl:
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
So just for the sake of argument ... What do you mean forever? The norm for most people is until conveniance is interrupted, or almost everyone else gets married until death do us part. So forever is a long time. Does it cross the line between live and death. Is there marriage forever? For those who believe in life after death, is there marriage or not after death or do people blindly believe it not so because some preacher with an earthly degree or training says marriage is an earth thing only. Forever sounds good to me although sometimes the next ten minutes of marriage seems too long to put up with ;) . Forever, can it be?
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Personally, I think that marriage can last forever... as in, beyond death. I think if you found a person you knew you wanted to be with, it would be sad to imagine it ending when you died. |
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05/26/2007 01:05:44 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by NightShy:
You're right, I'm a woman! I should be able to neglect my family! My kids don't need a mom, they need day care! My high paying job is way more important than the life I brought into this world. And when I don't have a strong emotinal relationship with them when their older, I'll have NO idea why!
My husband doesn't need a wife, he needs someone who gives him conditional sex every once in a while because most of the time I don't feel like doing it...mostly I just LOVE nagging the heck out of that stupid ape until he snaps!! I just don't understand why he can't understand me!
Good thing I can just get a divorce. The kids won't mind. I'm sure they can just learn everything they need to know about healthy relationships from the media.
YES! I LOVE BEING A WOMEN, I'M SO RESPECTABLE!
Women these days are far too selfish, hard, and downright stupid. |
Let's see... no mention of a movement here... just putting down women who work and who don't have sex unless they want to(!). Perhaps you missed this post. Now that you've seen it, I hope you're more understanding about the "harsh" backlash it received.
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05/26/2007 01:10:23 AM · #113 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
So I applaude NightShy for speaking her mind, likely knowing it would be unpopular, and I am astounded by the harshness of the backlash. |
Did you even read this thread? NightShy was attacking women who go out and earn a living, and the "backlash" was against that, not against women who stay at home and raise children. |
Funny, I thought she was speaking against the movement, and the particular issues it has created and attitudes that it has fostered that she disagrees with. Again, I hardly think it's against any and all women who earn a living, but against the subset that has placed that living above everything else, and so sacrifices their family, etc, for it. And the backlash seemed more a knee-jerk reaction, resulting in her statement being taken in the general sense, and not in the specific. |
I think you give more credit than exists, and while your words appear reasonable, they are just a mask for the underlying premise that IS the focus of the backlash, and that is that women who sacrifice themselves for their families are better women than those who chose other paths. You call working "selfish" I call it using my intelligence to further my life and the lives of my loved ones. I call it paying my mortgage. I call it being MORE than just the one who cooks and washes dishes because I CAN DO MORE than these things.
I resent being called an "old" feminist. Firstly, I'm not old. Secondly, I happily clean and cook at my own home, but its not all I contribute. I am a professional. I have a happy and successful marriage and my career has in no way hampered my ability to be a loving, caring person. Its not selfish for me to have a job. If someone, ANYONE, man or woman, has put their work before their family, then yes, their family will suffer, but don't lay the blame on women only. This will happen if anyone does. The PROBLEM HERE is that people point to women who neglect their "family duties" as the fall of the family, but i simply cannot abide that.
It is the prevailing attitude among EVERYONE that their own needs come before others that is the fall of society. Don't blame women. Blame ourselves collectively. We are a selfish, materialistic society that will consume itself.
Message edited by author 2007-05-26 01:11:25.
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05/26/2007 02:00:46 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by debitipton:
I do so want to meet your wife. She must have a pioneer spirit, a grand sense of humor and a heart of gold. Bless her! |
Strikeslip, lol. great sense of humor, love how you have kept this in perspective....way to go!!!
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05/26/2007 03:19:09 AM · #115 |
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
So just for the sake of arguement ... What do you mean forever? The norm for most peope is until convienance is interupted, or almost everyone else gets married until death do us part. So forever is a long time. Does it cross the line between live and death. Is there marriage forever? For those who believe in life after death, is there marriage or not after death or do people blindly believe it not so because some preacher with an earthly degree or training says mariage is an earth thing only. Forever sounds good to me although sometimes the next ten minutes of marriage seems too long to put up with ;) . Forever, can it be? |
Basically what I was saying was that I don't consider divorce an option. I would consider it in very extreme circumstances, but that's it. I think there's a part in the Bible (I personally believe the Bible, but let's not turn this into a religious debate, lol) that says that people won't be married in heaven. |
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05/26/2007 04:31:51 AM · #116 |
I think you have to decide for yourself how much work you want it to be... but just know that it is going to be twice as much work as you think it will be or maybe 100 times. I think perhaps people have a better idea of how much work it will be when they are older - say late 20's, but i suppose lots of people are still pretty much in the dark there as well.
I do agree however that love takes work, and if you are the type that gets irritated very easily or have a difficult time feeling loved, it is going to take extra work. if you and your hubby can show and feel love easily then things are going to be a lot easier, and same goes for if you are 'easy' to get along with in general.
my suggestion - go to your local church (if you are christian) or similar place, and ask for a partner counseling session. They can be very helpful for dating couples to find more out about each other BEFORE they get married and see if this is something they want to do, and might bring to light a few problems they are having and will have.
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05/26/2007 10:45:48 AM · #117 |
Come on now, if you are going to quote the bible for a specific teaching, something that is not a gross mis-interpretation, you really need to give us the chapter and verse. I think that is fair in any discussion or arguement. Why would a Just God give un eternal life but only a mate for the twinlking of a eye in the time of eternity?Originally posted by klstover:
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
So just for the sake of arguement ... What do you mean forever? The norm for most peope is until convienance is interupted, or almost everyone else gets married until death do us part. So forever is a long time. Does it cross the line between live and death. Is there marriage forever? For those who believe in life after death, is there marriage or not after death or do people blindly believe it not so because some preacher with an earthly degree or training says mariage is an earth thing only. Forever sounds good to me although sometimes the next ten minutes of marriage seems too long to put up with ;) . Forever, can it be? |
Basically what I was saying was that I don't consider divorce an option. I would consider it in very extreme circumstances, but that's it. I think there's a part in the Bible (I personally believe the Bible, but let's not turn this into a religious debate, lol) that says that people won't be married in heaven. |
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05/26/2007 12:01:34 PM · #118 |
I watched my parents remain in a loveless but amicable marriage my whole life. They stayed together "for the kids," as so often is the case. In 1949, my mother dropped out of high school in the 9th grade to marry my dad. She was 15, he was 27. She said he looked so handsome in his military uniform. They had three children by 1956, and I came along in 1969. My mother did not have any education or training to be anything more than a homemaker and mother. She did those jobs very well, and we were always taken care of. I got everything I needed, and most of everything I wanted. But I knew that their example of marriage was not for me. I can't remember ever seeing them kiss or hug, or tell each other they loved one another. As far back as I can remember, they slept in seperate rooms. My mother was miserable and depressed by the time I was a teen, but divorce was never considered and she stayed...and stayed...and stayed until a massive heart attack took my dad in 1999.
Because of her silent misery, my mother always impressed upon me the importance of being able to take care of myself. She wanted me to be independent, strong, and able to make my own way in the world without the need of a man to take care of me. She always said that I should marry because I want to, not because I have to. I cannot ever thank her enough for her advice. I went to college, got married, had kids, went back to college, and now have a wonderful and rewarding career that supports me and my children. My children were fortunate enough to be cared for by their grandmothers 99% of the time while I was going to school or working, at least until they were school aged. Two of them were in daycare for a short time but neither are scarred for life because of it. It takes a little research and planning, but there are excellent child care centers available everywhere.
As many of you know, my own marriage had many ups and downs. Terrific highs, and tremendous lows. Crashes, you might say. We even had a divorce. But I wanted it to work, and so did he...so we worked HARD to make things right. Just when things were going well, the unspeakable happened, and he was taken from us. I have been there...that point of "until death do you part." It is unimaginable, but at the same time, I keep hearing my mom's voice talking to me about strength and independence. I am so thankful to have had the opportunity and education to embark upon a career that allows me to care for my children, because I don't have the luxury of a husband to do that for me anymore.
I say all that to say this...for anyone considering marriage, enter into it knowing that it is going to be hard work. It will be like a roller coaster. You will have fabulous, fairy-tale moments. You will have meltdowns. You have to give, compromise, and sacrifice. You have to be patient. Above all else, you have to want to be there every day, forever...not just be there because you have nowhere else to go (like my mother). At the same time, you should be prepared to be able to take care of yourself and your children because you never know when death may part you.
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05/26/2007 12:05:29 PM · #119 |
I agree Phantom. It makes no sense that God would take away those we love when we die. That would make eternity a very unhappy one!
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
Come on now, if you are going to quote the bible for a specific teaching, something that is not a gross mis-interpretation, you really need to give us the chapter and verse. I think that is fair in any discussion or arguement. Why would a Just God give un eternal life but only a mate for the twinlking of a eye in the time of eternity?Originally posted by klstover:
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:
So just for the sake of arguement ... What do you mean forever? The norm for most peope is until convienance is interupted, or almost everyone else gets married until death do us part. So forever is a long time. Does it cross the line between live and death. Is there marriage forever? For those who believe in life after death, is there marriage or not after death or do people blindly believe it not so because some preacher with an earthly degree or training says mariage is an earth thing only. Forever sounds good to me although sometimes the next ten minutes of marriage seems too long to put up with ;) . Forever, can it be? |
Basically what I was saying was that I don't consider divorce an option. I would consider it in very extreme circumstances, but that's it. I think there's a part in the Bible (I personally believe the Bible, but let's not turn this into a religious debate, lol) that says that people won't be married in heaven. |
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05/26/2007 12:39:26 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by daboardergirl:
I agree Phantom. It makes no sense that God would take away those we love when we die. That would make eternity a very unhappy one! |
The Bible at most says very little about the Afterlife. I would argue that it says nothing about the Afterlife.
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05/26/2007 12:55:40 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
If I want someone to lord over, I'll hire employees or have kids :-) |
Ick. :( I know this was tongue in cheek, but yikes what an attitude. |
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05/26/2007 03:44:36 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by daboardergirl:
I agree Phantom. It makes no sense that God would take away those we love when we die. That would make eternity a very unhappy one! |
The Bible at most says very little about the Afterlife. I would argue that it says nothing about the Afterlife. |
I would have to disagree... :) |
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05/26/2007 05:02:08 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by daboardergirl:
I agree Phantom. It makes no sense that God would take away those we love when we die. That would make eternity a very unhappy one! |
The Bible at most says very little about the Afterlife. I would argue that it says nothing about the Afterlife. |
I am thinking, even if it says about after life, there is no way to confirm it. |
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05/26/2007 06:05:52 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by daboardergirl:
I agree Phantom. It makes no sense that God would take away those we love when we die. That would make eternity a very unhappy one! |
The Bible at most says very little about the Afterlife. I would argue that it says nothing about the Afterlife. |
I am thinking, even if it says about after life, there is no way to confirm it. |
Most of it is made up anyway.
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05/26/2007 06:19:13 PM · #125 |
How did this thread go from being about marriage to discussing religion? We all know what happens with threads about religion....they get put in "Rants". Let's stry to stay on track, please.
June
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