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12/17/2003 12:16:20 AM · #1
First, I'm not upset where I placed...

Just trying to understand why my Simplicity entry was voted a 1 or 2. Do people not understand how "simplicity" relates to the Amish? I felt this was one of my best photos yet, and I think it recieved the most ones and twos of any of my entries.

If you voted this a one or two, could you please explain why? I'm just trying to understand, so I can improve. PM me if you don't want to post here.



Thanks!
12/17/2003 12:23:35 AM · #2
Hey Chris,

I think the problem with your shot was leaving the skirt blue. While it is a neat effect, it took away from your message. My eyes were instantly drawn to the skirt, and didn't even look around enough to notice that this was an amish person. I think you needed to more closely consider what the photo was trying to say to the viewer, and from there establish how you are going to best represent that in a photo.

Secondly, alot of people on the site are VERY hard on photos if there are any technical mistakes, however slight. I like this alot, cause it means that I will always know if I've somehow messed something up, but this can lower scores. Your picture seems to be somewhat blurred when I look at it. And in a picture that does not contain an instantly captivating subject matter, any slight blur or discrepancy can really plummet your score.

Hope I've been some help.

Lee
12/17/2003 12:28:29 AM · #3
Chris,
I noted in my comments during challenge that you hit the challenge right on the head. That refered to the challenge theme! Unfortunately I only gave your shot a 5. This is partially because the shot itself isn't all that 'simple'. It's actually kind of busy. There are several textures and conflicting lines. I also think that you kind of confused the issue with your choice of going with selective desaturation. I think in THIS shot that a dark sepia tone might have had more impact. The lady kind of dissappears into the buggy because of the black on black. If you would have cropped (zoomed?) in closer to get only one buggy and the lady it would potentially have more impact also.
TC
12/17/2003 12:29:40 AM · #4
I didn't vote on your image but it looks rather busy. Regardless of the subject being a simple people the photo was full of complex elements. just a thought.
12/17/2003 12:56:32 AM · #5
I guess I didn't see where the photo itself had to be simple,but obviously most everybody else did. I was torn between which version of the photo I was going to use. I was going to replace this version with a dark B&W version,but decided to leave this one. I should have listened to the voices in my head. :)

Here's the B&W version.


Thanks for taking the time to comment on this. I think I'm starting to figure this place out. We'll see how the Macro challenge goes.
12/17/2003 12:59:26 AM · #6
In general I like the totally B/W better than the selective desaturated one. The first thing that I did notice is that the B/W seemed to be a little oversharpened. What settings did you use in USM???
12/17/2003 01:00:12 AM · #7
I just commented directly on the photo. FYI I wasn't one of those lowball scores you got. I got a fairly large number of 1s and 2s as well, and I only had two elements in my shot: I submitted that particular photo and crop because it captured both simplicity of composition and of "fun". But apparently, a number of people didn't understand or try to understand.
12/17/2003 01:02:25 AM · #8
Originally posted by TooCool:

In general I like the totally B/W better than the selective desaturated one. The first thing that I did notice is that the B/W seemed to be a little oversharpened. What settings did you use in USM???


122%
1.5px
8 levels
12/17/2003 01:05:02 AM · #9
I don't know how many people outside the U.S. knows about the Amish and the stereotyping they get(Simple Life)

Less clutter = high score IMO on this challenge.

Funny thing is I'm making Amish Cinammon Bread (Amish Friendship Bread) right now. It's still in the oven and will be ready in about 40 minutes. If anyone's in the neighborhood, I have enough for everybody.

Here's the recipe if anyone's interested.

Message edited by author 2003-12-17 01:08:49.
12/17/2003 01:08:33 AM · #10
Originally posted by faidoi:

Funny thing is I'm making Amish Cinammon Bread right now. It's still in the oven and will be ready in about 40 minutes. If anyone's in the neighborhood, I have enough for everybody.


What makes it Amish? I can be just about anywhere in the Bay Area in 40 min. lol
12/17/2003 01:10:33 AM · #11
Originally posted by cbeller:

I guess I didn't see where the photo itself had to be simple,but obviously most everybody else did.


I don't think it necessarily "had" to be simple, it just helped. Well, didn't help me but that's beside the point.
12/17/2003 01:10:52 AM · #12
I'm feeling kinda bad about my placement as well. I didnt get any 1's but I got a whole mess of 2's, 3's, and 4's. I just don;t get it.

There I've said it! Feel better already!
12/17/2003 02:20:53 AM · #13
Rooster, your photo did very well, a lot of people gave it high marks and it deserves it. The way I analyze the distribution of the votes is to get the percentages of votes below 5, 5's and above 5. If my above 5 percentage is the largest of the three groupings, then I feel good about the rating. It's not scientific or anything but it's my way of making sense of the votes.
12/17/2003 05:47:21 AM · #14
Originally posted by Rooster:

I'm feeling kinda bad about my placement as well. I didnt get any 1's but I got a whole mess of 2's, 3's, and 4's. I just don;t get it.

There I've said it! Feel better already!


Why?

You got an excellent score.

I think people sort of think that a good score is 8 or 9 ...... look at the usual ribbons, they are high 6's or low 7's most of the time.

Breaking the 6.0 barrier can be an achievement here and I think that needs to be remembered by people. Breaking the 7 ...... rare.

So, a score of 6.3 is excellent, many people never reach that at all.

Cheller ... The Amish picture definitely, imho, didn;t deserve any 1's. To me a 1 means you think a photo is absolute shit. You may not like that one (I did by the way and thought it met the challenge well) but no way it could be called shit, so I think it has to be the people who did not realise what Amish is about.

However, look at even the major ribbon winning photos here, you'll still see the odd one, for whatever (often stupid I think) reason.

Message edited by author 2003-12-17 05:49:41.
12/17/2003 06:09:04 AM · #15
cbeller - even the second placed shot got 2 twos and 7 threes ...

As to yours ... the nature of the Amish is not necessarily understood outside the US, and even where it is, recognising them from a photo is just making it harder to draw the connection.

There are people here whose average vote is a four ... a few threes and twos are inevitable ... ones? Well, who knows?

Ed
12/17/2003 06:56:17 AM · #16
Just pretend (it could be true) that the ones and twos come from new members who have mistakenly got the scoring backwards.
12/17/2003 07:06:46 AM · #17
I gave you a 5, but also felt the image was too busy and the blue dress distracting.
12/17/2003 08:22:31 AM · #18
Originally posted by Natator:


Cheller ... The Amish picture definitely, imho, didn;t deserve any 1's. To me a 1 means you think a photo is absolute shit. You may not like that one (I did by the way and thought it met the challenge well) but no way it could be called shit, so I think it has to be the people who did not realise what Amish is about.

However, look at even the major ribbon winning photos here, you'll still see the odd one, for whatever (often stupid I think) reason.


Thanks, that's usually how I rate when I'm voting. If it's completely out of focus and such, I may mark it a one. I try very hard not to rank someone below a 3, unless it is just a poor, poor shot.

I have noticed, as well, how a lot of the top ranking photos get very low votes.

I like emorgan49's idea as an explaination for the 1's & 2's. :-)

Message edited by author 2003-12-17 08:23:10.
12/17/2003 08:52:53 AM · #19
Originally posted by cbeller:


Thanks, that's usually how I rate when I'm voting. If it's completely out of focus and such, I may mark it a one. I try very hard not to rank someone below a 3, unless it is just a poor, poor shot.

I have noticed, as well, how a lot of the top ranking photos get very low votes.

I like emorgan49's idea as an explaination for the 1's & 2's. :-)


My feeling is any photo that is done competently, not necessarily a good photo, but focused appropriately and with some care shown for composition, and most importantly that meets the challenge, gets a 4. You get higher scores based on aesthetics and ingenuity. If you don't meet the challenge, but your photo is competent, you get a 3. Bad photos that meet the challenge might also MAY get a 3. Originally, I didn't give 1's and 2's, but there are some photos are just done so poorly they deserve it.

Now when I see all these undeserved ones and twos (on my latest as well, that one I can't understand since I demonstrated simplicity in two dimensions: I have only two elements in the photo (girls), and they are having very simple "fun".

SO I CHALLENGE YOU ONE'S AND TWOER'S on my photo (below), or on one of the other ones mentioned in this thread below, to CONVINCE US WHY it deserved a 1 or a 2. I promise not to argue your points, or even respond (unless you want me to). I (probably we) just want to hear what you were thinking at the time.

Anyone is welcome to ante up an image you gave a 1 or a 2, and explain why. But since it's pretty clear sometimes, let's say the minimum criteria for the photo you explain is that the photo got at least a score of 5 on the average.

What say you? A plea to those reading: Do not judge them, or argue with them, but let's hear them.

Edited: Forgot the link to mine:


Message edited by author 2003-12-17 08:56:35.
12/17/2003 09:01:20 AM · #20
I think you hit the theme extremely well! I would have like to have seen you walk closer to the subject and loose the post that's cutting the picture in half. I think that adds too much to the photo.

Remember, photography composition is all about figuring out what not to include.
12/17/2003 09:31:50 AM · #21
cbellar. Your take one the subject was interesting. I think if you had gotten in closer, it would have been a little more simple because you would have been better able to compose the shot with just the woman and carriage. The selective desaturation did draw the eye to the skirt, and I don't know if that was what you intended to happen.
I just wanted to say, when these types of threads are posted, calling for the voters to give reasons for voting low, those voters don't usually reply. It seems that they exist in their own universe. A small universe where, maybe, they feel like some sort of powerful force that has the ability to disturb other people. Not that it isn't fun to discuss photos, it's just not very productive to try to get people to expain why they voted low. I didn't vote or comment because....well, I don't feel qualified anymore, since I've been reading all the threads on these subjects.
12/17/2003 09:41:55 AM · #22
Neil - I rated your girls photo a 7 - having two daughters myself, I just appreciated the simple joy depicted.
12/17/2003 09:46:25 AM · #23
Originally posted by kaycee:

Neil - I rated your girls photo a 7 - having two daughters myself, I just appreciated the simple joy depicted.


Thanks. I wasn't unhappy with most of the scoring, and I am thankful for the large number of comments I received during the challenge, but I was curious how this (and others) merited so many 1's and 2's, and was just throwing this into the analysis.

I think I might try to separate my "challenge" to the one's and twoer's into a new thread and try to focus on that issue.

UPDATE: I just moved it to its own thread under "Low Score Scoring Challenge"

Message edited by author 2003-12-17 09:56:37.
12/17/2003 01:52:11 PM · #24
Don't feel bad. Nearly every image will receive 1s and 2s no matter how good it is. It's to be expected, trust me. Probably for the same reason this image received a 10 from someone who simply decided not to comment about how wonderful he/she thought it was. If you get more than 25% of your votes in the 1 or 2 scoring range, then I would be concerned.
12/17/2003 02:25:38 PM · #25
Originally posted by pcody:

cbellar. Your take one the subject was interesting. I think if you had gotten in closer, it would have been a little more simple because you would have been better able to compose the shot with just the woman and carriage. The selective desaturation did draw the eye to the skirt, and I don't know if that was what you intended to happen.
I just wanted to say, when these types of threads are posted, calling for the voters to give reasons for voting low, those voters don't usually reply. It seems that they exist in their own universe. A small universe where, maybe, they feel like some sort of powerful force that has the ability to disturb other people. Not that it isn't fun to discuss photos, it's just not very productive to try to get people to expain why they voted low. I didn't vote or comment because....well, I don't feel qualified anymore, since I've been reading all the threads on these subjects.


The Amish do not like (or should I say hate) their pictures taken. If you are taking pictures of the Amish then it is a covert action. You are usually not walking by (they don't live where there are streets) but generally in your car. It is hard enough to get a picture of them let alone move in closer to get unwanted objects out of the way.
However, the Mennonites are a little bit looser on the subject and the people that appear in photos that we see are generally Mennonites not Amish.
It is a miracle that cbeller even got this photo.
I live not too far from Lancaster where there is a huge Amish community and let me tell you it is not an easy thing to photograph them and then when you do it is always from behind. I try not to take pictures of their faces even when I do have the rare opportunity because they really don't like it at all.
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