Getting help in forums before submitting??

05/08/2007 12:22:32 AM · #1

I noticed a picture in a recent challenge that I had seen in 2 recent forums (I know I need a life) before the challenge went to voting. A lot of people gave a lot of good feedback and even helped edit the photograph.
The picture then placed in the top 10% of the challenge...

I'm furious- I'll be honest. If I could have received that kind of help before entering my picture I am sure I would have done well too.

Are there really no rules against this???

Message edited by author 2007-05-08 00:28:59.

05/08/2007 12:23:47 AM · #2

When you saw the image in the challenge, did you recommend it for validation?

~Terry

05/08/2007 12:25:57 AM · #3

I did, and even asked SC to get back to me about if this was okay- I never got a response.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

05/08/2007 12:30:07 AM · #4

Which challenge was this?

I don't usually work DQ requests, so I didn't see it.

~Terry

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

05/08/2007 12:31:49 AM · #5

Lipstick Ad

Message edited by author 2007-05-08 00:32:01.

05/08/2007 12:32:18 AM · #6

so is this against the rules? I don't want to call anyone out...

05/08/2007 12:32:34 AM · #7

Nevermind- Judi's all over it. :)

Message edited by author 2007-05-08 00:32:55.

Nikon AF Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5- 5.6G ED DX

05/08/2007 12:38:38 AM · #8

There is no explicit rule on this one way or the other. We tend to be a bit more permissive of this on Free Studies than we otherwise would, since many times users will post a photograph to the forums not thinking at the time that they would use it for the Free Study.

That said, if we were to see someone doing it repeatedly (which, to the best of my recollection, has never happened), we would probably ask them to stop. If they still continued, I guess it might be considered an attempt to manipulate votes at that point. I'm really just making an educated guess, though, since we've never had it escalate that far, so there's no precedent for me to refer to.

Part of the reason it doesn't get that far is that it does tend to hurt them in the voting. This does kind of help the situation take care of itself.

~Terry

Rebecca

Nikon D80

05/08/2007 12:45:37 AM · #9

From the rules:
Your submission must be taken and post-processed by you. Someone else may press the shutter button if you set up the shot and the camera settings. No one else may post-process your entry for you. Exceptions must be approved by the Site Council in advance.

Looking through the thread, the photo was post-processed by several members, and the final edit was very heavily based upon Nikolai's suggestions. I guess the question becomes where to draw the line. If someone else post-processes my base photo, then tells me the steps and I duplicate them faithfully, then who really processed the photo - them or me?

Artifacts

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/08/2007 02:06:46 AM · #10

I'm probably out of touch with the group but, silly me, I still believe this is a teaching and learning site and that the discussion on that photograph is a good example of that.

When challenges start offering prizes then things will be different.

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

05/08/2007 02:18:11 AM · #11

So... honestly- there is no problem with me asking for help with a photograph within the forums and then submitted it to a challenge?

I would love to take advantage of everyone's knowledge and get a higher score for it... unfortunately, I do not see that happening. It feels like cheating, or at the very least-, it's not in the spirit of the challenge. If the challenges do not matter (because there is no monetary prize) than having multiple accounts or voting on friends, or any other rule shouldn't matter either- since the final outcome is irrelevant - as long as you�ve learned something.

so again- if I stand alone here, and everyone else has no problem with it- You�ll be sure to see my upcoming entries in the forums, because I always appreciate the help and lord knows I need it.

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

05/08/2007 02:21:14 AM · #12

Showing a shot during the month, then pulling / hiding it if submitting for a challenge happens, but to show it, ask for help, get a forum thread going about it, THEN use it, after getting open help editing it is really tacky in my opinion.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/08/2007 02:28:45 AM · #13

Originally posted by WickedB:

So... honestly- there is no problem with me asking for help with a photograph within the forums and then submitted it to a challenge?

Pardon me, but that sounds like a rather self-serving misinterpretation of Terry's posts.

While those no specific rule regarding it -- because it occasionally happens "by accident" where someone posts a challenge for some feedback and later decides to enter it, it is not DQ'd. "Anonymity" of entries is a goal and tradition but not a fundamental rule which would DQ a photo.

However, actually using an image after it had been processed by someone else (not just following their suggestions) would appear to violate the rule against processing your own photo.

Likewise, deliberately posting a future challenge entry -- labelled as such -- for either help or publicity -- would violate the rules against vote manipulation and maybe the one against posting out-takes before the voting is over.

You can put a photo in your Workshop folder and ask some individuals to go look at it and offer advice, but posting in the forums is asking for trouble. Maybe it's a little confusing because it primarily violates the Forum Rules and not the Challenge Rules.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/08/2007 02:30:32 AM · #14

If you are on a WPL team, I believe you will be able to post images within your team's private Forum thread and get advice from your team-mates.

Artifacts

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/08/2007 02:45:17 AM · #15

Originally posted by GeneralE:

If you are on a WPL team, I believe you will be able to post images within your team's private Forum thread and get advice from your team-mates.

Isn't it also true that team members are excluded from voting on fellow teammate's submissions? In that case team sharing is a great avenue for learning to improve your photography.

Private mentoring of submissions is a good learning tool as well.

However, if a person seeks extensive help on every submission they make and it becomes obvious their only intent is just to get higher scores then they will be found out soon enough and the amount of quality assistance they get will evaporate.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/08/2007 02:56:06 AM · #16

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you are on a WPL team, I believe you will be able to post images within your team's private Forum thread and get advice from your team-mates.

Isn't it also true that team members are excluded from voting on fellow teammate's submissions?

Right -- that's why it doesn't matter if team members share photos among themselves.

Message edited by author 2007-05-08 02:56:36.

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM

05/08/2007 02:57:27 AM · #17

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you are on a WPL team, I believe you will be able to post images within your team's private Forum thread and get advice from your team-mates.

Isn't it also true that team members are excluded from voting on fellow teammate's submissions?

Right -- that's why it doesn't matter if team members share photos among themselves.

Where are these private forums?

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/08/2007 03:14:36 AM · #18

I fear that those of us not in the DPL will begin to suffer a bit - we won't have teammates to help us pick which picture to enter nor offer editing advice, teach us neat tricks, etc. I suppose the answer to this is "join a team!" but I'm not comfortable with doing that - my scores don't support competition well.

atupdate

Pentax K-R

Promaster 28-200mm f/3.8-5.6 XR IF

05/08/2007 06:53:27 AM · #19

I was considering finally becoming a paid member, as my post processing skills have developed far enough to hold their own in advanced editing. However, I doubt they can compete with a team edit. Guess I'll stay with my current member status for a while longer.

Tim