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04/23/2007 01:35:12 PM · #76
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Uh-oh... Setzler has two cents :)

The nature of DPChallenge promotes this type of behavior. It's a sad but true fact of online competitions. It's also not abnormal. The objective here is to win. Looking for extra advantages is natural.

There are several modifications to the site that would minimize any impact created by swing voting practices. These minor changes would not require much effort to implement either. A possible solution to the issue:

1. Increase the minimum required voting from 20% to something much higher, such as 50%. Putting more votes in the system would naturally balance a few swing votes.

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


Excellent ideas! I wholeheartedly support these changes, in addition to the welcomed monitoring by the SC. Great news!
04/23/2007 01:35:34 PM · #77
Originally posted by aerogurl:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:



1. Increase the minimum required voting from 20% to something much higher, such as 50%. Putting more votes in the system would naturally balance a few swing votes.

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


Excellent suggestions. 50 is kinda high especially on a Free Study with 600 entries, but he is right, it would help balance it out more.

And the no thumbnails, great suggestion..


So you go from 120 votes required to 300 in such a free study. Is adding 180 clicks of the mouse really all that much to ask? 99% of the time, I won't vote unless I can vote on them all. I think that it's only fair if I offer my votes across the board. And, if voters don't want to vote on 50%, we'll get more representative scores without the skew of those that repeatedly vote 20%. I like John's ideas. Let's get them into play!

E
04/23/2007 01:35:39 PM · #78
Originally posted by jmsetzler:


1. Increase the minimum required voting from 20% to something much higher, such as 50%. Putting more votes in the system would naturally balance a few swing votes.

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


I like #2 / to prevent cherry picking (being a victim of that recently)

but i do think %50 is too high .. possibly just 25% ..

04/23/2007 01:40:24 PM · #79
Originally posted by ralph:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:


1. Increase the minimum required voting from 20% to something much higher, such as 50%. Putting more votes in the system would naturally balance a few swing votes.

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


I like #2 / to prevent cherry picking (being a victim of that recently)

but i do think %50 is too high .. possibly just 25% ..

Do I hear 33%?
04/23/2007 01:42:17 PM · #80
Originally posted by _eug:

Do I hear 33%?


Why keep it a percentage. Why not a fixed number, say 100? If there are fewer entries than that, then you have to vote on all.
04/23/2007 01:45:18 PM · #81
I like it - 100 votes is a good solid sampling of voting and does not force someone loads of time in a challenge with more than 500 entries. I find this much better than a percentage.

Originally posted by eqsite:

Originally posted by _eug:

Do I hear 33%?


Why keep it a percentage. Why not a fixed number, say 100? If there are fewer entries than that, then you have to vote on all.
04/23/2007 01:45:25 PM · #82
Originally posted by dwterry:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

1. Increase the minimum required voting from 20% to something much higher, such as 50%. Putting more votes in the system would naturally balance a few swing votes.

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


Regardless of the current thread topic... I like the above two ideas for many reasons. Two thumbs up from me.

Likewise here. Great suggestions.
04/23/2007 01:50:07 PM · #83
Have a committee that meets and reviews every entry. They decide on the right vote for each entry and tell everyone what vote each entry should get. Anyone who doesn't vote the right way gets suspended, if they do it again, they get banned.
04/23/2007 01:58:48 PM · #84
Originally posted by GuGi:

OK. We have different opinions. This means that it is absolutely ok to publish a shot on another photosite, similar to dpc ...

That part is OK, the following part -- telling DPC voters about it -- is not.
Originally posted by GuGi:

... and make a point of telling your peers on said site that this shot is in the XXX-challenge on dpc ...

Legally, we can't control where or when you publish your image, and it's not practical for us to check every website any user might have posted to.
04/23/2007 02:07:38 PM · #85
I think it would be best if everyone had to vote in their pre-assigned order, instead of clicking on any of the thumbs to start voting at that point. I really don't see the reasoning behind allocating everyone a differently-ordered set of thumbs to vote on, and then letting them vote on whichever shots they want.

Whether it would reduce vote-rigging though, who knows?
04/23/2007 02:08:35 PM · #86
Originally posted by ericwoo:


So you go from 120 votes required to 300 in such a free study. Is adding 180 clicks of the mouse really all that much to ask?


Yes.
04/23/2007 02:12:10 PM · #87
Originally posted by mist:

I think it would be best if everyone had to vote in their pre-assigned order, instead of clicking on any of the thumbs to start voting at that point. I really don't see the reasoning behind allocating everyone a differently-ordered set of thumbs to vote on, and then letting them vote on whichever shots they want.

Whether it would reduce vote-rigging though, who knows?


I really like this idea. Personally, I do this myself and try to vote in challenges where I think I can vote on 100% of the shots.
04/23/2007 02:12:56 PM · #88
Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by aerogurl:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:



1. Increase the minimum required voting from 20% to something much higher, such as 50%. Putting more votes in the system would naturally balance a few swing votes.

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


Excellent suggestions. 50 is kinda high especially on a Free Study with 600 entries, but he is right, it would help balance it out more.

And the no thumbnails, great suggestion..


Sounds good to me. Will make it rough on occasions but I am all for being fair to others and being treated fairly during voting. I too try to vote on all. If I can't I don't vote.

So you go from 120 votes required to 300 in such a free study. Is adding 180 clicks of the mouse really all that much to ask? 99% of the time, I won't vote unless I can vote on them all. I think that it's only fair if I offer my votes across the board. And, if voters don't want to vote on 50%, we'll get more representative scores without the skew of those that repeatedly vote 20%. I like John's ideas. Let's get them into play!

E
04/23/2007 02:15:47 PM · #89
Originally posted by GuGi:

OK. We have different opinions. This means that it is absolutely ok to publish a shot on another photosite, similar to dpc, and make a point of telling your peers on said site that this shot is in the XXX-challenge on dpc, and knowing that your peers are on that site too. Sorry, does not sound fair to me.
I wait till voting is over before I post on my blog or on flickr. After all, it is only a matter of a week or so.


And what's fair about telling me where I can and cannot post a photo for which I maintain all rights? I post lots of photos and deliberately do not point out which might be entries. I don't vote on entries I recognize and expect my friends to do the same. It's my understanding that this has worked out just fine, since I haven't gotten any warnings or bans or whatnot with the new algorithm.
04/23/2007 02:23:33 PM · #90
Originally posted by GuGi:

... make a point of telling your peers on said site that this shot is in the XXX-challenge on dpc, ...

Doesn't sit right with me either.

04/23/2007 02:31:11 PM · #91
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Have a committee that meets and reviews every entry. They decide on the right vote for each entry and tell everyone what vote each entry should get. Anyone who doesn't vote the right way gets suspended, if they do it again, they get banned.


LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
04/23/2007 02:44:31 PM · #92
Originally posted by Rebecca:

Originally posted by GuGi:

OK. We have different opinions. This means that it is absolutely ok to publish a shot on another photosite, similar to dpc, and make a point of telling your peers on said site that this shot is in the XXX-challenge on dpc, and knowing that your peers are on that site too. Sorry, does not sound fair to me.
I wait till voting is over before I post on my blog or on flickr. After all, it is only a matter of a week or so.


And what's fair about telling me where I can and cannot post a photo for which I maintain all rights? I post lots of photos and deliberately do not point out which might be entries. I don't vote on entries I recognize and expect my friends to do the same. It's my understanding that this has worked out just fine, since I haven't gotten any warnings or bans or whatnot with the new algorithm.


I have the feeling you are getting me wrong. In my first post I wrote "rules" as there are no rules, but recommendations.
I think we all agree that sharing photos privately and then giving 9's and 10's is not fair, that is what this thread started with.
Publishing a photo on a photosite stating what challenge the photo is in is in my opinion more or less the same. Publishing a shot on flickr without that information is different. But to make sure that there is no "friendly" voting, it could be a good idea to refrain from posting them till voting is over.
It is not a question of interfering with where we post or do not post our shots, just recommending that we wait a few days.
04/23/2007 02:47:32 PM · #93
Originally posted by stdavidson:

Its like using a hand grenade to kill a fly.

It's really a lot of fun.
It's dangerous as hell though.......
04/23/2007 02:53:59 PM · #94
Can I address something that might be a little touchy? I wanted to find a good way to word this but I think I'm going to have to name names, hope this is okay.

If there's a picture that's out of focus, bad composition, etc... a voter might look at that and say, "I really like how this is unique and unconventional" and give it a high score.

But I really am not comfortable with the "oh, this looks like a whiterook shot, so I'm going to give it a 10." There have been plenty of comments like this on his shots.

It is not as big of an issue specifically as it was a little while ago but I would still love a coment from SC as to the acceptability of this.
04/23/2007 02:55:45 PM · #95
Originally posted by jmsetzler:



2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


I kinda like this one. Maybe we should mull this one over a bit.
That would eliminate the thumbnail cherry picking that I know goes on.
I've found many, many, images that are 8 in my eyes that looked like crap as a thumbnail. Not coincidently my best two scoring images look fairly good as thumbs. Wonder what affect this would have on voting? There seem to be a fair number of entrants who don't vote at all. Maybe we need to have a trial of this idea. Maybe we need a sitewide poll!!! heheheh
04/23/2007 02:59:29 PM · #96
Originally posted by jmsetzler:

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


I amopposed to this idea, because I browse the thumbnails first to see if there is enough promising material there to even start voting. But when I vote I vote on all, so I am in favor of the first idea.


04/23/2007 03:00:07 PM · #97
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:


Not to be the ball buster that i am, buts its been suggested in many threads by many people todo both of the same things. And it has never changed.


Yeah, and you don't even need a ghost account to do it either. heheheh
I think number one, increasing the number of votes will never happen. There are two many people who don't vote at all. With a 50 percent requirement that number would increase, esp. on free studies.
I like idea number 2 a lot. I think a poll should be taken on this one.

04/23/2007 03:06:52 PM · #98
Originally posted by Azrifel:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


I amopposed to this idea, because I browse the thumbnails first to see if there is enough promising material there to even start voting. But when I vote I vote on all, so I am in favor of the first idea.


Agreed, and also because, as someone mentioned earlier, sometimes I like to comment without voting. I also have to wonder what sort of speed voting this would encourage. I like to look at the entries near rollover, especially on the rare occasions that I myself have entered. Do other folks do that? And if so, is there then going to be a fantastic rush to vote through every entry in order to see what's out there? I think it would be better if there was some way to allow thumbnails but force people to vote in order. I have no idea how that would be implemented, though. I also have no idea how to determine whether or not cherry-picking is actually an issue - with proof other than that a few people here and there have either suggested that it happens or admitted to doing it. I don't really see the point in it. Is voting in the extremes just fun or something?
04/23/2007 03:07:11 PM · #99
Originally posted by klstover:


But I really am not comfortable with the "oh, this looks like a whiterook shot, so I'm going to give it a 10." There have been plenty of comments like this on his shots.



I think you'll find this kind of stuff is mostly tongue in cheek.
If you look at that too close, you're really going to have to look
at people who purposely go for low scores as well. I guess I'm going to have to quit voting on whiterook stuff. I've got to where I recognize his work. And his work really is genius...... It's so bad, well.... it's good!!!!!! Now tell me how to vote on that! heheheh
04/23/2007 03:08:07 PM · #100
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by jmsetzler:



2. Do not allow voters to view thumbnails before voting on a photo. This would eliminate selective voting and also place more votes in the system when a voter chooses to vote selectively.


I kinda like this one. Maybe we should mull this one over a bit.
That would eliminate the thumbnail cherry picking that I know goes on.
I've found many, many, images that are 8 in my eyes that looked like crap as a thumbnail. Not coincidently my best two scoring images look fairly good as thumbs. Wonder what affect this would have on voting? There seem to be a fair number of entrants who don't vote at all. Maybe we need to have a trial of this idea. Maybe we need a sitewide poll!!! heheheh


You know I hear about this cherry picking as if it's a bad thing. Can someone exactly explain why it's a bad thing? What is the difference between voting on 20% that is random vs 20% that you "cherry picked"?
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