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11/26/2003 12:44:21 AM · #1
I will admit that my picture was not the best, but to be at the bottom of the pile. I know understand that most people on this site don't understand what they are doing when they vote, or could careless. I was planning on joining the site as a paying member, but now I wonder if it is worth it, and I have score much lower, don't get me wrong. The propaganda had a reverse effect on me, it has started to turn me off the site, I see pictures of poor quality and subject higher than mine because they a "common" subject. Mabey its just me, and mabey on the paying side people think more about the pictures instead of 135 votes in under 2 minutes.
11/26/2003 01:47:29 AM · #2
I didn't vote on this one, but I did look at your image. I don't know jack about sports so didn't know who your statue was. I thought about it and followed the 30 second rule and still didn't know what to be beware of. With so many people from all over, I didn't know if you maybe misspelled fog, but that didn't fit either.
I think you shouldn't be so hard on the voters. I'm hatching a low score for what is, technically, a good photo, but, I guess, isn't what the voters were anticipating. It doesn't make me mad because I like it a lot.
Can't let it get you down. As someone keeps saying, if you like your work, what does it matter if "the voters" like it?
11/26/2003 02:02:02 AM · #3
Ok, I like what you said, and mabey I am being hard, but my main problem you point out exactly. I do agree with your stance of not voting on something you don't understand.

Originally posted by pcody:

I thought about it and followed the 30 second rule and still didn't know what to be beware of.


I wanted people to be aware of the statue. Now mabey I had to much else going on in the picture, but I still thought that it was the center subject. But like I said in the comment on my picture, a statue is a huge peice of propaganda, and sports uses propaganda than most Governments these days, its the argument, if we used to be great, we must still be great, that is propagands.
11/26/2003 02:09:12 AM · #4
I didn't "get it" either, but I did think it was a good shot overall. I think a different title would have elevated its standings; your picture carries your message, but didn't really convey it. A title like "One of America's Greatest Heroes" might have carried it better as propaganda. I would have understood better and given a little more towards premium scores.

I understand your pain about the scoring; I've felt it too, but you have to remember that what really matters is whether or not you are proud of your work. I try to never submit something unless it looks to me like an excellent image. That of course, can make it harder when it doesn't do well.

But you can't please everyone. Remember, the contests are a great way to get people to give you quick opinions on your work, but that's all they usually are. It answers the question: How much does my image "WOW" the common people? Is it something that people like right off the bat (popular). Even if you score well, this doesn't **necessarily** mean it's a good, artistic photograph. Likewise, if you don't score well, it doesn't mean that it isn't a work of art either.

If you are happy with your image, and you got some good comments, you have a new "creation" you can keep, possibly sell, but most of all be proud of. If you want feedback, ask for more critiques, as you have done here. After the challenge, it's easier for you to ask specific questions.

I've been on many of these sites, and this one has one advantage: anonymous scores. Basically, anonymity is the only way people don't get caught up in trying not to hurt the feelings of their friends. On other sites that are not anonymous, many people give each other the top scores so as not to upset one another and have them "reverse" critique you low.

11/26/2003 05:07:54 AM · #5
I'll post an alternative thought:

If a voter doesn't "get" the intended concept behind a photo entered into a themed challenge that means the photo didn't succeed as well as intended in communicating that concept universally.

Propaganda is (usually) meant to communicate to the audience.

DPC voters (all of them) are the audience (in this instance).

All should vote, and are entitled to include in their thinking process their feelings about how well the photo succeeds, in their eyes, in meeting the challenge theme.

Of course, one could always ask that only people who like one's entry should vote on it, but that seems somewhat self defeating to me - more about getting higher results than about either gaining an understanding of how one's photo strikes a range of viewers or taking onboard ideas and suggestions that might lead to improvements in the future.

I'm sorry you didn't do well on this challenge. I think it would be sad if you gave up on the site because of it.

Message edited by author 2003-11-26 05:08:21.
11/26/2003 07:52:58 AM · #6
Mr. CaN,

Don't be discouraged. You don't necessarily have to join as a paying member but I recommend continued participation.

Challenges serve two important goals: 1-Widen your photography experience by meeting challenge topics. 2-Competition improves your individual excellence as a photographer. Both make you better.

I can identify with your frustration. My current submission in the Surprise challenge is at 4.6, mostly because voters feel it does not "meet the challenge". I captured what I wanted with it so I am satisfied; it will just get a low score.

Meeting the challenge rates as high or higher than the technical quality of the image itself at DPC. After all, there are great images submitted in every challenge. Voters therefore put a high premium on the challenge topic. You just need to accept that if voters don't understand your image it will score low.

Recently there was an image that was DQed from DPC that won a contest in another competition and the photographer was honored in a special ceremony and given expensive camera equipment.

That could happen to you with one of yours or to me with my lowly 4.6 scoring image somewhere else. But if you don't try in the first place nothing will happen.

If an image is good it will stand on its own long after a challenge topic is forgotten.

Message edited by author 2003-11-26 08:27:46.
11/26/2003 08:39:41 AM · #7
Originally posted by stdavidson:

If an image is good it will stand on its own long after a challenge topic is forgotten.

Steve, Kavey, Neil and pcody make a lot of great points in their posts, but this in particular struck me as a great representation of why we should keep shooting for challenges and participating in the site - to me, an average scoring photographer, this is inspiring.

I myself have had some photos score pretty low - and I take it as a learning experience, rather than tell the masses they are dumb, or don't understand what they are doing when they vote. Unfortunately the lower scoring shots tend to receive fewer comments - but this is where you ask for critiques after the challenge is over.

These folks have been really nice in their replies to this post regardless of your 'belittling' comments, I took the 'dumb' and 'don't understand what they are doing when voting' statements offensively. Maybe some of the others are thicker skinned than I and just shrug it off. I think it goes to show how great the majority of folks around here are.

I looked back at your image, because I didn't enter or vote in the Propaganda challenge, and I understand exactly where they were coming from. Had I voted, I would not have known the connection to propaganda. It is a well taken shot though. You received some (in my opinion) pretty helpful comments.

Message edited by author 2003-11-26 08:49:52.
11/26/2003 08:49:22 AM · #8
I was 'almost' discouraged with my Propaganda results, as well. What I'm discovering, however, in my short tenure here, is that much depends on the background and perceptions of the voters - especially in a challenge as open to interpretation as this was...

For instance, my submission was prompted by my experiences from the 60s and 70s, where people on both sides of the Viet Nam War controversy would propagandize their stance. What I wanted to portray was a sense of irony - a picture of a redneck with fist thrust over the American flag, shouting his stance, - thus a bit fuzzy with movement. It was done in black & white in an attempt to place the scene in time...

Anyway, it was extremely instructive reading the comments. They ran the gammut from "Huhh??" to a lengthy paragraph that clearly reflected an understanding of my intent, as described above. Those who could identify with my experience, as depicted in the photo, scored it high. Those who could not, scored low.

Sooo, I'm not discouraged. I learned from this - if only how others see my work. And that's a good thing, isn't it?

FYI, here's what I submitted:

//www.dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=47714
11/26/2003 12:57:17 PM · #9
Originally posted by Kavey:

Propaganda is (usually) meant to communicate to the audience.

DPC voters (all of them) are the audience (in this instance).


This is bunk, first the challenge was Propaganda, and as such it means to capture propaganda, when the challenge is aroma, you capture aroma, you don't make a scent for people to smell, pictures can only convey a feeling. And the audience is world wide and incrediably diverse. If you have to target an audience like that then no subject would have fit.
11/26/2003 01:19:39 PM · #10
Originally posted by MrCaN:

This is bunk


Why post on a discussion forum if you're not interested in others' opinions unless they support yours?

And it wouldn't hurt you to remain civil.

Originally posted by MrCaN:

the audience is world wide and incrediably diverse. If you have to target an audience like that then no subject would have fit.


Clearly some subject were successful in communicating to a varied and diverse audience. The ones at the top of the rankings, for example.



I'm sorry you're feeling so bitter, but I will try and remember not to offer any response to your rants in the future. Clearly, what you're looking for is confirmation that your entry was superb and all the voters at DPC were simply too stupid to see that. Since I disagree, I clearly am not the kind of person you're looking for on this thread.

11/26/2003 01:24:14 PM · #11
I also did not get your submission. I didn't know who the person was or what you were trying to convey. Given the perspective and what I found to be the focal point of the shot,,, I thought it was, well,, his crotch, to be blunt.

and with that title I rather assumed you were talking about some sort of sexual prowess thing.

11/26/2003 01:29:14 PM · #12
Originally posted by MrCaN:

Originally posted by Kavey:

Propaganda is (usually) meant to communicate to the audience.

DPC voters (all of them) are the audience (in this instance).


This is bunk, first the challenge was Propaganda, and as such it means to capture propaganda


Which you obviously failed to do - if your picture (which was technically good) had managed to convey an impression of Propaganda to your audience, you would have scored better. It really is that simple.

Originally posted by MrCaN:

And the audience is world wide and incrediably diverse. If you have to target an audience like that then no subject would have fit.


You're right, the audience is highly diverse - so if you want to score as highly as possible, you have to produce images that appeal across that diversity.

While I can see that you are convinced that your picture perfectly summed up propaganda, it seems I am not alone in looking at it and thinking "oh, a picture of a statue". And while I can see how it could be argued that any statue is propaganda of a sort, there are many other more powerful ways to convey it (the ribbon holders being good examples).

Message edited by author 2003-11-26 13:29:45.
11/26/2003 01:39:24 PM · #13
Originally posted by JC Homola:

I also did not get your submission. I didn't know who the person was or what you were trying to convey. Given the perspective and what I found to be the focal point of the shot,,, I thought it was, well,, his crotch, to be blunt.

and with that title I rather assumed you were talking about some sort of sexual prowess thing.


And this is what people are looking for in comments. A comment that says this has nothing to do with propaganda, didn't understand the challenge. Here you show me what was misinterpeted. Mabey the problem is the fact that if people give a low rating they don't feel the need to comment. I try to comment more on the poor votes I give rather than on the good ones.
11/26/2003 01:43:28 PM · #14
Originally posted by ganders:


While I can see that you are convinced that your picture perfectly summed up propaganda, it seems I am not alone in looking at it and thinking "oh, a picture of a statue". And while I can see how it could be argued that any statue is propaganda of a sort, there are many other more powerful ways to convey it (the ribbon holders being good examples).


I guess I don't understand how people don't view statues as propaganda. A statue, especially a person. I shot the picture because when I think of the cold war you think of huge statues of stalin in town squares, here I was capturing the modern day dictators, the coaches. I also think having your title as a 2 page explination is a bad trend.
11/26/2003 01:47:47 PM · #15
Originally posted by Kavey:

Originally posted by MrCaN:

This is bunk


Why post on a discussion forum if you're not interested in others' opinions unless they support yours?

And it wouldn't hurt you to remain civil.


Good point, mabey you should have thought about it first, you are mad because I didn't agree with your statement and that ilistrates why you shouldn't post on a discussion forum if you're not interested in others opinions unless they support yours.

And as being civil, I don't understand that comment at all.

Originally posted by Kavey:


Clearly some subject were successful in communicating to a varied and diverse audience. The ones at the top of the rankings, for example.


I'm not saying that the winners were bad, or that mine should have won, my problem is that people just throw it a bad score without an explination or a thought.


Originally posted by Kavey:


I'm sorry you're feeling so bitter, but I will try and remember not to offer any response to your rants in the future. Clearly, what you're looking for is confirmation that your entry was superb and all the voters at DPC were simply too stupid to see that. Since I disagree, I clearly am not the kind of person you're looking for on this thread.




Message edited by magnetic9999 - no personal attacks.
11/26/2003 01:57:33 PM · #16
Mr. CaN

How could you expect your shot to do well if no one but you had any idea what it is about?

For example, what if I took a picture of a cup of tea and called it 'The Hunter Never Sleeps' ?

You would have NO IDEA what i was talking about or trying to say, right?

THat's what your pic is like: totally incomprehensible to anyone but yourself.

Try to be comprehensible, then you can get a better score. :)
11/26/2003 02:02:16 PM · #17
Originally posted by magnetic9999:


For example, what if I took a picture of a cup of tea and called it 'The Hunter Never Sleeps' ?


Actually I think that would be a great photo and title, it conveys the feeling of lonliness on the hunt with a single point of warmth to keep you awake while you hunt.

As far as interpitation of my title for propaganda, here you have a statue of a coach, some thought it was a player, but the whistle gives that away, and a warning to beware. I would think that you should be aware because this is a great man, a great coach that will hand you a defeat. But I guess I shouldn't ask voters to think about the photo and title, and mabey I should stop thinking when I vote, that way atleast my votes will reflect the rest of the site.
11/26/2003 02:23:55 PM · #18
This was a hard challenge. More so because it was my first! (lol) I think that the fact that you submitted a picture that was recognized by even some as having fit the challenge, and more importantly, was recognized as having been a good photograph is admirable. I was very proud of my entry. I know there was a *lot* of room for improvement, but I worked for three days to get a shot that pleased me, and I felt that I conveyed my message well. Of course there were those who didn't get it (still a bit surprised at that, I felt it was fairly straightforward).

I didn't know who the statue in your entry was either, and because of that, I was confused as well. I still scored you fairly well because of the overall quality of the shot and the fact that I felt it fit the category, though I wasn't sure exactly WHY.

Anyway, I did have my moments of frustration and annoyance while reading some comments or watching my score rise and plummet, but hey, I was still proud of myself. And hey, I liked what you did too. Why quit over one challenge? Why not do better next time, earn great remarks from those that had made negative ones on this one, then grin to yourself after and think "Boy, I sure showed you guys!" :)

Message edited by author 2003-11-26 14:24:46.
11/26/2003 02:29:54 PM · #19
Originally posted by Allyrellia:

Why quit over one challenge? Why not do better next time, earn great remarks from those that had made negative ones on this one, then grin to yourself after and think "Boy, I sure showed you guys!" :)


It's not just one challenge, its a trend I have seen on this site, and in fact I have cut way back on my entries into challenges. I like the idea of the site to improve photography skill as well as capture an idea, not pandering to an audience who can't even tell you why they don't like the picture.
11/26/2003 02:31:05 PM · #20
Originally posted by Allyrellia:

I didn't know who the statue in your entry was either, and because of that, I was confused as well. I still scored you fairly well because of the overall quality of the shot and the fact that I felt it fit the category, though I wasn't sure exactly WHY.

I felt about the same. I think the large quantity of leaves in the background form a little distraction -- I think I'd use a vertical crop to accentuate the angle you chose.
11/26/2003 03:31:27 PM · #21
Originally posted by MrCaN:

I shot the picture because when I think of the cold war you think of huge statues of stalin in town squares, here I was capturing the modern day dictators, the coaches.

And here, I think, is the problem. That may well have been what you were thinking, but judging from the comments on your picture and here (as well as the score that upset you so much) that wasn't what your picture was saying to others.

You're not the first to announce that the great unwashed masses aren't clever enough to understand your artiness and you wont be the last - but (as I have said before on such threads) everyone KNOWS that you either take the obvious, technically sound shot and get the votes, or something arty and accept that you wont score so highly.
11/26/2003 03:32:17 PM · #22
Without any intention of being offensive, I wish to express my opinion about the outcome of the Propaganda challenge.

Well, I cannot see any relationship between the winners and the most of the runner-ups and the propaganda meaning...

Which is by far more scaring to consider as evidence of what people knows about it it (or maybe even better what they want to know about it) than to just a negative outcome of a challenge.

Could it make sense to introduce a rejection mechanism of the pictures that are not compatible with the topic or with a quality threshold?

To see propaganda so misconcieved was pretty disgusting, sorry.

11/26/2003 03:41:11 PM · #23
Originally posted by MrCaN:

This is bunk, first the challenge was Propaganda, and as such it means to capture propaganda,


Actually, the challenge details tell you to create propaganda, not capture some that already exists.
11/26/2003 04:06:08 PM · #24
Originally posted by Konador:

Originally posted by MrCaN:

This is bunk, first the challenge was Propaganda, and as such it means to capture propaganda,


Actually, the challenge details tell you to create propaganda, not capture some that already exists.


Actually your interpretation may well be right, in which case the whole challenge becomes a completely different one and the same pictures which were inappropriate in one interpretation become appropriate in the other one.

However, if so, it should have been stated more clearly. The term "create" is not used and I had to read the definition again after reading your post to discover that, yes, it could have been interpreted that way but still it leaves lots of ambiguity especially because the contest is titled "Propaganda". A title "Create Propaganda" would have avoided any confusion among two very different contexts.
11/26/2003 04:12:39 PM · #25
[quote=MrCaN
And this is what people are looking for in comments. A comment that says this has nothing to do with propaganda, didn't understand the challenge. Here you show me what was misinterpeted. Mabey the problem is the fact that if people give a low rating they don't feel the need to comment. I try to comment more on the poor votes I give rather than on the good ones.[/quote]

Actually I gave it a 5 for the merit of the image. I knew it was some sort of sports figure, but as you pointed out in another reply, the whistle, didn't mean a thing to me.
I'm not a sports person. I don't do team sport, I don't watch team sport. So just because someone has a whistle, tells me nothing.

I try and comment on at least 10 images per challenge. I don't have unlimited time, and so I choose ones where I feel I have something to contribute.

Until you started this thread and I took another look at the shot, I really didn't have anything concrete to say. I had a "feeling" about how I was reacting. But I couldn't have put it into words.

And, because sport related images usually leave me rather cold, I tend to vote on the basic merit of the image and leave interpretation to those that have a raport with the subject matter.
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