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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> In-Camera Multiple Exposures to be Disallowed
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Showing posts 201 - 225 of 284, (reverse)
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02/24/2007 08:34:57 PM · #201
Originally posted by David Ey:

Well, SC works very hard to keep this a fair contest for everyone and are to be commended.
Far more entries will be dq'd for someone inadvertently copying from the CF card to their editor using some transfer program that modifies it or by moving the file from one directory to another and it being unknowingly modified than will ever be hurt by this rule change.
It looks like dpc may not be for us who just like to enter a photo once in a while anymore.


Hmm or maybe it is if u find humor in your low scoring image... I guess whiterook gets a kick out of his browns. I get a kick out of entering images that barley meet challenge. While taking my Free Studies very seriously. If you feel hampered by you score you should artistic expression shouldnt be put down by a score.

Love your work because it is something you created.
02/24/2007 08:35:50 PM · #202
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

I oppose something that could be done on a 3 dollar film camera for the legitmate creativity of the photographer.


It seems to me that you oppose everything. you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.
02/24/2007 08:38:38 PM · #203
Originally posted by Elvis_L:

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

I oppose something that could be done on a 3 dollar film camera for the legitmate creativity of the photographer.


It seems to me that you oppose everything. you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.


someone brought this up one time and i gave them just as many threads where i answered questions offered suggestions and even helped people as could be foudn fo me complaining. If you dont like expression of opinion then why do you express yours? You also retain the ability to ignore me, but dont beat down on the ability to express ones opinion.

And for the record to oppose something is to also support something therefore being impossible to oppose everything.

Message edited by author 2007-02-24 20:39:05.
02/24/2007 08:41:39 PM · #204
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

Originally posted by Elvis_L:

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

I oppose something that could be done on a 3 dollar film camera for the legitmate creativity of the photographer.


It seems to me that you oppose everything. you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.


someone brought this up one time and i gave them just as many threads where i answered questions offered suggestions and even helped people as could be foudn fo me complaining. If you dont like expression of opinion then why do you express yours? You also retain the ability to ignore me, but dont beat down on the ability to express ones opinion.

And for the record to oppose something is to also support something therefore being impossible to oppose everything.


see this is my point. You are arguing but have no valid point. you say that if i have an opinion i should voice it. i just did. my opinion is you are arguing for the sake of arguing with no valid points. i never once said you shouldn't or couldn't voice your opinion.

edit to add that you mention that you help people and i would agree that i do see you do that but i more often see you shit on people or people's ideas. if i hugged 9 people it doesn't make up for the 1 time i punched someone in the throat (since you like analogys) BTW my problem is not with your ideas or opinion just with how you present it.

Message edited by author 2007-02-24 20:45:32.
02/24/2007 08:46:07 PM · #205
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

someone brought this up one time and i gave them just as many threads where i answered questions


It's true, you do. But you also tend to dominate threads with repeated posts expressing the same opinion, coming from different angles. Look back across this thread, and see who's username dominates the left column. People view this behavior as disruptive. You'd get a better response to your post if:
- You stated an opinion, once.
- You used full words instead of IM-ese.
- You tried to be less argumentative.
The above is purely my personal opinion, and is intended to help, not as an attack.
02/24/2007 08:48:21 PM · #206
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

someone brought this up one time and i gave them just as many threads where i answered questions


It's true, you do. But you also tend to dominate threads with repeated posts expressing the same opinion, coming from different angles. Look back across this thread, and see who's username dominates the left column. People view this behavior as disruptive. You'd get a better response to your post if:
- You stated an opinion, once.
- You used full words instead of IM-ese.
- You tried to be less argumentative.
The above is purely my personal opinion, and is intended to help, not as an attack.


Agreed!
02/24/2007 08:50:16 PM · #207
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:

someone brought this up one time and i gave them just as many threads where i answered questions


It's true, you do. But you also tend to dominate threads with repeated posts expressing the same opinion, coming from different angles. Look back across this thread, and see who's username dominates the left column. People view this behavior as disruptive. You'd get a better response to your post if:
- You stated an opinion, once.
- You used full words instead of IM-ese.
- You tried to be less argumentative.
The above is purely my personal opinion, and is intended to help, not as an attack.


And your opinion is noted. I think if you'd want to understand me you should talk to Karmat she doesnt know me that well either but understand certain things about my syndrome.

The best thing for me is to actually not talk at all except when i can be helpful. But then again its kind of dumb to hide myself just because i dont do well with the public.

I Participate in probly 10% of threads at the most. Id particpate in alot more if i didnt read the first post and close it because i dotn want to get into it.

Over half of my posts never go up i write them and click on the dpclogo to go back to the main oage because ive changed my mind.

But if youd do me a favor anyone who wants to talk about it PM me to avoid further derailing this topic over me again. Because I personally get yelled at for responding to posts that have todo with me but not the subject.

Message edited by author 2007-02-24 20:51:04.
02/24/2007 09:04:08 PM · #208
............, it would be rude of me to post that I don't like you very much, but I can sure think it.

Message edited by author 2007-02-24 21:04:36.
02/24/2007 09:08:55 PM · #209
Originally posted by David Ey:

............, it would be rude of me to post that I don't like you very much, but I can sure think it.


Im just gonna quote myself

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:


But if youd do me a favor anyone who wants to talk about it PM me to avoid further derailing this topic over me again. Because I personally get yelled at for responding to posts that have todo with me but not the subject.


past that if youd like to pm me its not as rude... lol
At first i found Greetmir very annoying til i realized this is the same greetmir i played an online game with at least 5 years ago. Then it wasnt so bad.
02/24/2007 09:20:42 PM · #210
Originally posted by formerlee:

I may be speaking out of line and on a topic I know nothing about, but I have noticed that as digital cameras become more advanced, we DPCers are becoming more constrained by new rules.


i respectfully disagree.

we have completely changed the basic editing rules to allow for the removal of dust spots and hot pixels -- two problems caused (mostly) by the advance of camera technology.

and as editing technology has increased, we've introduced an "Expert" ruleset that allows people to maximize the use of their editing skills, including HDR and multiple exposure techniques.

this decision was not made lightly. the D200 came out in, what, 2005? we've been debating it ever since then.

and this is absolutely not at all about leveling the playing field. it's about ensuring that challenge entries can be validated. the only things that "level the playing field" around here ARE the rulesets, so we have to ensure that they are enforceable. period.
02/24/2007 09:22:22 PM · #211
Well said, sir Rob.
02/24/2007 09:22:27 PM · #212
and this thread needs to stay on topic. the fact that it is in the Administrator Announcements forum means that new members are going to be directed to it for clarification about the rules and the way this site runs.

running over the thread with personal squabbles is flat-out rude. if you have a problem with someone, take it offline. or, better yet, move on.

do not continue these arguments in this thread.
02/24/2007 09:40:43 PM · #213
Originally posted by scalvert:

I'm pretty sure Nikon's ME is multiple files stored in cache and combined later. Overlay is multiple files stored on your media card and combined later.To make your direct comparison with film, your camera would have to leave the sensor active and writing to the media card while opening the shutter multiple times. Regardless, just because something could be done with a film camera doesn't mean it has to be legal for DPC contests. :-/


That is a completely unfair analogy as film doesn't heat-up, but does it really matter if the sensor is inactive? It shouldn't. Why is the number of times the shutter activates the I Ching of exposure? A black card, lens cap, etc could accomplish the same thing, albeit with less control. But one is legal and another is not?

Also, all jpgs are in buffer memory until PROCESSED by the camera, ditto with in camera B&W, sepia, etc. Also, specifically with the D200 the second exposure can be a maximum of 30 seconds from the first exposure. The process as a whole is a planned exposure, unlike as bearmusic suggests, is the same as combining two images in PS. To me, as I stated in an earlier post, multiple exposure meets the spirit of the rules more so than HDR processing or removing monofilament lines from studio shots, distracting elements etc, etc.

But the most important reason that I think this rule is absurd, is that it eliminates a great teaching tool from a site that is supposed to be so educational. With all the auto focus, auto exposure, auto everything cameras and software of today have handicapped a lot of very creative people from actually learning basic photographic skills. Multiple exposure forces one to understand the basic building of exposure while developing camera-handling techniques.


02/24/2007 09:48:49 PM · #214
Originally posted by hyperfocal:

...all jpgs are in buffer memory until PROCESSED by the camera, ditto with in camera B&W, sepia, etc.


Yes, but they're single files and remain so.

Originally posted by hyperfocal:

But the most important reason that I think this rule is absurd, is that it eliminates a great teaching tool from a site that is supposed to be so educational.


You can still play with non-DPC entries, Expert Editing (so far) and challenges with special rules. This is hardly a function that you need to use every day, so what's the big deal about restricting a special feature available on only a small percentage of cameras to special challenges? You make it sound like the sky is falling.
02/24/2007 10:13:23 PM · #215
Originally posted by scalvert:



Yes, but they're single files and remain so.

You can still play with non-DPC entries, Expert Editing (so far) and challenges with special rules. This is hardly a function that you need to use every day, so what's the big deal about restricting a special feature available on only a small percentage of cameras to special challenges? You make it sound like the sky is falling.



I would argue that the result of a multiple exposure is a single file. Nikon sure states that it is. What about the new Pentax K10D's ability to produce a RAW from a jpg at the touch of a button. In my mind it is less of a compost than your great shot Arabian Flights. Also if worring about the small percenatge of cameras (which will grow), in reference to your shot agian how many have access to large plotter printers? I'm not acting as the "sky is falling" I just feel it is my right and my duty to state when I think the SC has crossed the line. For me personally I doubt I'd ever use it in a challenge and would only use it maybe 1 out of 10000 shots for my personal work.


02/24/2007 10:27:20 PM · #216
Originally posted by hyperfocal:

...I'm not acting as the "sky is falling" I just feel it is my right and my duty to state when I think the SC has crossed the line. For me personally I doubt I'd ever use it in a challenge and would only use it maybe 1 out of 10000 shots for my personal work.


With due respect, we're really in this only to ensure that everyone is playing fair. In what way do you feel we've "crossed a line?" We simply cannot allow loopholes that leave the potential for users to enter images that are out of challenge dates. Shooting within the challenge timeframe is the core of what makes DPC competitions what they are.
We don't really like to do this either but we do feel that it is the best solution. FWIW, this change does not eliminate the possibility of multi-exposure composites. There are several ways to achieve them legally without resorting to in-camera multi-exposure or overlay. There are ample examples in the challenge archives.
02/24/2007 10:32:17 PM · #217
Is it that really big of deal?

Its a new rule-- just do it-- WOW??????

Some people take this way too serious.. Okay bash me-- bye :)
02/24/2007 10:54:27 PM · #218
Originally posted by buzzrock:

Is it that really big of deal?

Its a new rule-- just do it-- WOW??????

Some people take this way too serious.. Okay bash me-- bye :)


Buzz I am with you. Please peoples...this site is for fun. There are guidelines...follow them...don't fight them...but just have fun.
02/24/2007 11:21:25 PM · #219
a few hours sleep helps a lot!

i've just sat down with a coffee and re-read this thread from start to end. and i'd like to start by apologising to ursula, generale and kirbic for my inappropriate remarks. sorry. there was no justification for it at all.

to clarify my position i'd like to make a few points. i'm going to be as lucid as possible. my statements are based on the D200, since i can't speak for any other camera's processes.

1. there seems to be some differentiation between 'functions' and in-camera 'editing' ... actually these are precisely the same thing because all photographs are treated in-camera and edited. i think SC should create a global term (such as in-camera processing tools) and lump them all together (image overlay, ME, red eye reduction, sepia, b&w, everything).

this will make it easier in the long run, because SC won't have to say "incamera features are allowed except blah blah blah" ... SC can simply post a list of incamera tools that are allowed or not allowed to be used challenge by challenge.

as cameras develop more processing tools, the list can be extended to include them all.

2. SC needs to be specific and distinguish between FILES and SHUTTER ACTUATIONS. when creating a ME, the D200 stores the exposures in the buffer and combines them into a single image. those exposures are NEVER available to the user except as a final photo.

so for all purposes, these are a single file. so i'd like a clear definition, files or shutter actuations?

3. image overlay IS the combination of multiple files. and i totally agree with site council that this is a big problem. the potential for exploitation is there and i have no issues with it being banned. image overlay in the D200 is created by laying two separate images (located on the memory card) together. IMAGE 1 is the image used to create the exif data, which means that exif data can be faked.

however, ME is a completely different game. ME exif is taken from the FIRST click and applies to all subsequent clicks used in the ME image. the shot is buffered because it's impossible for a digital camera to create such an image otherwise (due to the fact that there's no physical element such as film).

4. i've been informed that nikon software does record if an image has been created with image overlay (in the exif it says - image overlay ON) or if ME has been used (same, exif data says - multiple exposure ON). although this data isn't available in general exif, it IS available when read by nikon capture software. therefore it's in the binary data for the file and easily accessed by anyone with nikon camera software.

therefore it's not reasonable to lump image overlay and multiple exposures in the same ruling.

...

those are my beliefs. i appreciate the great job SC does running this site (and i've said that numerous times) but i don't think that this particular decision is the right one.
02/24/2007 11:41:48 PM · #220
Originally posted by super-dave:

a few hours sleep helps a lot!

i've just sat down with a coffee and re-read this thread from start to end. and i'd like to start by apologising to ursula, generale and kirbic for my inappropriate remarks. sorry. there was no justification for it at all.



Thank you, David. It takes a good person to apologize, and in public like this.

------

I am well aware of the differences between MEs and overlays. In my view, overlays aren't particularily useful at all in camera - any overlay work is much better done in post-processing. Multis (with auto-gain on) on the other hand are different; in my experience, it's quite difficult to replicate them in post-processing, the end result just doesn't look the same. And using interrupted long-exposures is a different animal again, they simply don't work the same way.

Multis, to me, are a category of their own, different and beautiful - I love experimenting with them. I am personally very sad that they will not be allowed for challenges anymore. I wish it weren't so. Yet, the tag that distinguishes MEs from overlays is one of those Nikon proprietary tags that can be read only by Nikon software. It would be asking a lot of SC to use particular software every time there is a proprietary tag (maybe other brands too, not only Nikon).

Believe me when I say I'm sad over this, anybody on SC can tell you that I'm a fool for multis.

I think, if the tag were open (so that in a regular EXIF read it would show that it is an ME or an overlay) then it wouldn't be a problem to have MEs in challenges, or, at the least, the discussion would be different.

Message edited by author 2007-02-24 23:47:06.
02/24/2007 11:42:55 PM · #221
@superdave: sleep is good -- I wish I could get more : )

As the rule currently stands, you are allowed one shutter actuation.

Yourpoints, especially 3 and 4 have some merit, however another consideration in defining the rules is making them reasonably understandable and possible to enforce given our somewhat dispersed volunteer structure.

Even though it may be possible to distunguish one type of multiple image from another using proprietary software, it is not practical for us to depend on certain people who might have that software, and it is far simpler to explain the rule by saying that all multiple exposures created by combining the data from multiple shutter actuations are prohibited.

I think I disagree that DPC has to continually amend its rules to accomodate new technology, except as to prevent it from undermining our ability to conduct our challenges fairly. Just because a new camera incorporates some cool new editing capability doesn't mean it's in the spirit of a DPC competetion.

It's possible that the "any feature of your camera" language may have to be scrapped entirely -- that was also a "practical" bit of language dating from a time when the vast majority of DPC-user's cameras were only capable of "Basic editing" type actions. But maintaining a list of every camera's "features" -- sorted into allowed (in some challenges) and prohibited (in some challenges) -- will be horrendous; perhaps you'd like to prepare a first draft for us : )
02/25/2007 12:29:37 AM · #222
Originally posted by dudephil:

Hardly biased.

I'm just trying to get a reasonable reply to my question and am having a tough time doing so. Sure, technology changes but in your opinion where should the line be drawn? Obviously not multiple exposures but where? How about my original post - should in camera advanced Photoshop techniques be allowed in all challenges since the final result is straight from camera? If so, why? If not, why not?


From the rules:

Originally posted by Challenge Rules (emphasis added):

You may... use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry.


As I read it, editing performed after shooting, whether in-camera or not, is not "while photographing your entry." It may also destroy your unedited original.

By my reading, any editing would have to be legal under the relevant rule set, and must not overwrite your original file. I would vote to disqualify any entry that did not meet these criteria.

~Terry
02/25/2007 12:31:42 AM · #223
Originally posted by GeneralE:

@superdave: sleep is good -- I wish I could get more : )

As the rule currently stands, you are allowed one shutter actuation.

Yourpoints, especially 3 and 4 have some merit, however another consideration in defining the rules is making them reasonably understandable and possible to enforce given our somewhat dispersed volunteer structure.

Even though it may be possible to distunguish one type of multiple image from another using proprietary software, it is not practical for us to depend on certain people who might have that software, and it is far simpler to explain the rule by saying that all multiple exposures created by combining the data from multiple shutter actuations are prohibited.

I think I disagree that DPC has to continually amend its rules to accomodate new technology, except as to prevent it from undermining our ability to conduct our challenges fairly. Just because a new camera incorporates some cool new editing capability doesn't mean it's in the spirit of a DPC competetion.

It's possible that the "any feature of your camera" language may have to be scrapped entirely -- that was also a "practical" bit of language dating from a time when the vast majority of DPC-user's cameras were only capable of "Basic editing" type actions. But maintaining a list of every camera's "features" -- sorted into allowed (in some challenges) and prohibited (in some challenges) -- will be horrendous; perhaps you'd like to prepare a first draft for us : )


Im gonna get ridiculed for this but it'll end up more like "As the rule currently stands, you are allowed one internal shutter actuation."

Cause i know somewhere down the line someone could call an external device that covers the lense opens and closes an external shutter.... i know its a stretch but im just taking the opportunity to stretch it before someone actually tries to.
02/25/2007 12:41:39 AM · #224
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:


Cause i know somewhere down the line someone could call an external device that covers the lense opens and closes an external shutter.... i know its a stretch but im just taking the opportunity to stretch it before someone actually tries to.


Yeah, it's called a lens cap.
02/25/2007 11:43:10 AM · #225
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by RainMotorsports:


Cause i know somewhere down the line someone could call an external device that covers the lense opens and closes an external shutter.... i know its a stretch but im just taking the opportunity to stretch it before someone actually tries to.


Yeah, it's called a lens cap.


I dont think the double exposure effect is well achieved with a lens cap but if you can go ahead lol.
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